Is taxation theft?

[Zoomic]

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

(That's right dear reader, that was a clickbait!)

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.


My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

I have never imagined taxation as a form of theft but after reading the op, I am beginning to see some sense in it (even though i am not completely in agreement). I have always seen taxation as an instrument the government uses to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor by taking high amounts from high income earners and use it to provide amenities and social facilities both the high and low income earners would benefit from. This is what taxation is ordinarily meant for, except for cases where fraudulent leaders steal from the people for personal use.

Now, if the government collects from these people and fails to give to the people what they truly deserve as tax payers then, taxation should be seen as stealing. Why should the people enrich the government from their own sweat and still be suffering? Taxation is only justifiable if the government is keeping to their side of the bargain.

[Rengga Jati]

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.

Tax, is it extortion wrapped up in policies and regulations that must be obeyed and carried out by citizens? That is. It was a forced taking. Yes, perhaps for some things, taxes are necessary for the country's economic development. Because tax has always been the main source of state income. And it is used for various progress of the country (supposedly).

However, this becomes bad because as time goes by the state imposes more and more taxes on its citizens, not only on certain things but also other things that start to be taxed again and again. So this increasingly burdens the citizens of the country. Not to mention, I agree and maybe this happens a lot in various countries, that money from taxes is corrupted for personal interests. Shit. Isn't that also theft? but it was done by people in uniform and education, right? then wrapped in beautiful words that make the citizens have a dilemma and no longer fixate on it.

Taxes are associated with corruption, I'm sure many people have experienced this in a country. But apart from all that, is it fair that taxes are getting higher and higher, and more and more things are subject to taxes?

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

Oh yes, that has happened in my country. IN which countries are starting to legalize crypto. And at that time I was thinking that at most someday I would be subject to taxes. And it's true, taxes are really charged every time we make transactions on local exchanges. And it was immediately deducted automatically when making the transaction.

More info about crypto taxes in my country:
https://cointelegraph.com/news/indonesia-crypto-tax-bappebti-report
https://www.bepartners.co.id/news/indonesia-officially-imposes-tax-on-crypto-asset-transaction

[mirakal]

If taxation is imposed on someone who can't afford to have its burden then it's somehow a type of crime while if you see it at growth point of view of an economy then it's a very useful tool to support an economy.

Personally, I'm against the idea of heavy taxation because there are group of people who can't pay higher taxes and during having taxation they are forced to pay the taxes and for that they have to do many sacrifices.

Small taxes aren't bad but when it gets to higher numbers then those type of taxes make citizens to take somehow bad decisions. Some of the citizens might leave an economy where paying high taxes are mandatory while others try their best to avoid paying taxes by finding some loopholes in the system.

Everyone is required to pay the tax, as long as you are a citizen of that certain country and you benefit all those projects that were gained through taxes. So it's not an act of theft, but if those taxes go straight to the account of the government officials, well no doubt that is an extreme theft.

However, the thing is it's rare if those people are not aware that they are obliged to pay their tax and that it will be an instant deduction from their salary, as long as they are earning, then there's no excuse from paying taxes. Now, talking about heavy taxation, I believe that is also another story to tell.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.

What are the taxes being used for that should be our main concern and can the government survive without taxes, although we're being forced to pay our taxes but if it isn't mandatory task, would people be doing it willingly. Taxation is an avenue for the government to generate revenue to be used to pay for running the country. Are tax payers money being used for the good for her country or are they being misuse. For a country that has a working system that also has an accountable government, I won't see why they should be complaining about taxation when the outcome of the taxation are being seen all around.

Taxation isn't stealing for a civilized country that the governments are using the tax payers money in an accountable manner but in a corrupt country, taxation is stealing. The purpose of taxing has already been outlined by the governments so it only become stealing when they aren't using the taxes for the things they claimed it will be used for.

[AmoreJaz]

Everyone is required to pay the tax, as long as you are a citizen of that certain country and you benefit all those projects that were gained through taxes. So it's not an act of theft, but if those taxes go straight to the account of the government officials, well no doubt that is an extreme theft.

However, the thing is it's rare if those people are not aware that they are obliged to pay their tax and that it will be an instant deduction from their salary, as long as they are earning, then there's no excuse from paying taxes. Now, talking about heavy taxation, I believe that is also another story to tell.

Tax is not a theft if it is done via legal means. And also, if the tax is being utilized for the benefit of its people. Now, if the tax is going to the pockets of these politicians, that's clearly theft. Implementation of tax is crucial for the government to pursue their projects such as improvement of their transportation, healthcare and social welfare programs, economic developments, national defense and a lot more. So for me, this is important for any government. It will only vary how each government is utilizing their taxes to alleviate their economic status.

[philipma1957]

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

(That's right dear reader, that was a clickbait!)

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.


My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

In order to justify libertarians you need to make the following statement change.

"if you divide the planet earth fresh water land and oceans in equal shares  

we would get 1/3 of an acre of fresh water
4 acres of land
12 acres of ocean"

and the place won't work that way.

So we

1)either kill off 95 maybe 98 percent of the people.
Thus allowing the remaining ones to live free.
2)make space travel work easy peasy finding tons of resources and space which allow the current 8 billion of us to live free.
3) use taxes and caste system to keep the status quo.

Right now we do number 3

number 1 is  a pretty fucking terrible choice. no good at all

number 2 seems impossible at the moment.


So taxes are not criminal due to the three choices above.

taxes still seem to be a necessary evil. not a criminal evil.

number 1 which actually could work and end taxes would be criminal

and number 2 still seems to be beyond us.


I like libertarian thought but we simply do not have the room or resources for a lot of them on this planet.

[softunis]

The magic word is unauthorized taking. If government makes it legal, it is no longer theft.

Morally, I think there should be a maximum. 30% is too high.

I have to agree 100%

[shield132]

I think that the answer is simple. Taxation is theft in a corrupt country but it's a necessary evil in a least-corrupt country. We need a military, we need police, we need ambulances, we need lights in the street, there are many things that we need and these things need to be on a government level. The country is a family and the government is the head of the family. In a big family, not every family member is smart or reasonable. We need a smart head of the family. The head of the family collects the budget from the family members and takes the responsibility of taking care of things inside the family, including the management of necessary services that can't act on capitalism and also takes decisions in extreme cases. It's only a theft when the head of the family is egoist and wants all the money for himself and doesn't care about the family members.

[cryptosize]

and the place won't work that way.

Care to explain why?

[Baki202]

Everyone is required to pay the tax, as long as you are a citizen of that certain country and you benefit all those projects that were gained through taxes. So it's not an act of theft, but if those taxes go straight to the account of the government officials, well no doubt that is an extreme theft.

However, the thing is it's rare if those people are not aware that they are obliged to pay their tax and that it will be an instant deduction from their salary, as long as they are earning, then there's no excuse from paying taxes. Now, talking about heavy taxation, I believe that is also another story to tell.

 Since everyone pays taxes, the only reason I see people complaining is over how the government spends their money. Taxes are meant to be used for the benefit of the people, but instead the government uses the money for its own benefit.Since everyone pays taxes, the only reason I see people complaining is over how the government spends their money. Taxes are meant to be used for the benefit of the people, but instead the government uses the money for its own benefit. One of the reasons why people refuse to pay taxes is because the government wants them to, but they are no longer taking the necessary action. Instead, they want individuals to follow the tax policy. Theft is a very big issue in government. People are actually aware of their rights to pay their tax, the thing is that we like it or not the government will continue to collect tax because it is still very important. We just endure till when everyone is ready to correct the government.

[Synchronice]

My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

To be honest, one could write a novel about whether the taxation is theft or not. My short answer would be that in a country where government cares about their citizens, does good for them, funds what's strategically important, takes care of housing, helps people to get a high quality education, helps them to start a business, helps them to expand, gives them low % credits and so on, then taxation is not a theft but does such a country exist? No. There are the good ones but not such ones.
In reality, taxation is theft but it's like, I steal it from you but I return some % to you back for improving your quality of life. Let's take Denmark, Sweden, Norway, etc... These countries offer high quality of life, when you live there, you can feel that government cares about you and your tax is not wasted but at the same time, it's not like everything is fairly done. Those who are in charge, are still corrupts and the tax that they collected from you, they use it for their own benefit, to buy penthouse, expensive cars, do some shady business deals and so on.
Taxation will always be the theft but it depends on the country. In some countries, you'll pay it because it's not absolutely stolen from you but in some other countries, taxation is totally a theft and brings back no benefit like health insurance, social welfare, unemployment insurance, etc.

[uswa56]

Since everyone pays taxes, the only reason I see people complaining is over how the government spends their money. Taxes are meant to be used for the benefit of the people, but instead the government uses the money for its own benefit.Since everyone pays taxes, the only reason I see people complaining is over how the government spends their money. Taxes are meant to be used for the benefit of the people, but instead the government uses the money for its own benefit. One of the reasons why people refuse to pay taxes is because the government wants them to, but they are no longer taking the necessary action. Instead, they want individuals to follow the tax policy. Theft is a very big issue in government. People are actually aware of their rights to pay their tax, the thing is that we like it or not the government will continue to collect tax because it is still very important. We just endure till when everyone is ready to correct the government.

When the taxes that have been paid by the community cannot be used for the benefit of the people, of course the people cannot get the rights they have paid to the government and if the government continues to do this, of course this will be very detrimental to the people who have paid taxes and for some people who They choose not to pay taxes, of course they have their own reasons, it could be that the government doesn't manage these funds well so there are some people who choose not to pay taxes, but those who choose not to pay taxes, of course, will have difficulty accessing government services, which requires them to show proof of having paid taxes. pay taxes, so it is very impossible for poor people to be able to avoid taxes, but those who have power will certainly be able to avoid taxes.

[Cryptoprincess101]

Since everyone pays taxes, the only reason I see people complaining is over how the government spends their money. Taxes are meant to be used for the benefit of the people, but instead the government uses the money for its own benefit.Since everyone pays taxes, the only reason I see people complaining is over how the government spends their money. Taxes are meant to be used for the benefit of the people, but instead the government uses the money for its own benefit. One of the reasons why people refuse to pay taxes is because the government wants them to, but they are no longer taking the necessary action. Instead, they want individuals to follow the tax policy. Theft is a very big issue in government. People are actually aware of their rights to pay their tax, the thing is that we like it or not the government will continue to collect tax because it is still very important. We just endure till when everyone is ready to correct the government.

When the taxes that have been paid by the community cannot be used for the benefit of the people, of course the people cannot get the rights they have paid to the government and if the government continues to do this, of course this will be very detrimental to the people who have paid taxes and for some people who They choose not to pay taxes, of course they have their own reasons, it could be that the government doesn't manage these funds well so there are some people who choose not to pay taxes, but those who choose not to pay taxes, of course, will have difficulty accessing government services, which requires them to show proof of having paid taxes. pay taxes, so it is very impossible for poor people to be able to avoid taxes, but those who have power will certainly be able to avoid taxes.

No matter the financial status of any individual, it is advisable to pay taxes even though the government may not make judicious use of those taxes being paid by residents of a country. Taxes generate revenues for government to maintain and build infrastructure and there is no way the government can disregard making sure that those dividends of democracy is not visible for all to see because if people pay taxes and the government doesn't want to use those taxes for their purpose then the citizens can do a peaceful protest to question the government why the taxes they paid are not allocated to what they are being paid for. Every civil workers is expected to pay taxes and it has become mandatory especially for civil workers because as soon as their salaries are paid it will be automatically deducted then as for people that have self made jobs, they can pay through direct assessment by going to the board of internal revenue to make payments.
It is important for every one in a country to pay taxes irrespective of the amount of salary or income you earn as this a primary payment needed to generate revenues in building infrastructures and public services.
We know that most government have become so corrupt such that they divert some of these revenues generated from taxation but it should not discourage anyone from paying taxes.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

This could be debated for a thousand pages and still no consensus would be reached--and the issue of taxation has been debated since the beginning, centuries ago, so I'm not expecting much to come of this thread.

There's definitely an argument to be made that taxes are necessary to keep a country going, and I'd agree with that.  But at some point (where that point is, I've no idea) it becomes too much and citizens are taxed way too much.  IMO somewhere along the line the US reached that point and people are being taxed to death, taxed to the point where there's no way for wealth to be handed down through generations.  

And the kicker is that the US's monetary policies have left it with debt that's never going to get repaid, and I mean never ever in a million years.  The money printer just keeps a-goin' brrrrrrr....

To be honest, one could write a novel about whether the taxation is theft or not.

A novel or a really long nonfiction book, and I'm pretty sure at least a few of them have already been written.

[SickDayIn]

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.

My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

To answer the question in the subject, "Is taxation theft?" - when you put it like that, yes technically it is.

But, just because it's defined as that, doesn't mean it's bad or good. From my perspective looking at tax in a "good or bad" or "white or black" approach, is just too much of an oversimplification and it's neither. To be boring, it's both.

Taxation is necessary, as Governments acting as central bodies need money to create order and peace. Without Governments, there would be a lot more instability and chaos. To employ people to work in Government, tax is required to pay for their wages, but more importantly so that the remaining surplus can be used to allocate to the society to make it better. Improve road safety, subsidized transport options, and where possible free healthcare.

I think the question that really needs to be asked is: "At what point does taxation become theft?"

In most countries, income taxation is not a flat % rate, regardless of how much you earn. It scales, as you earn more, you pay more tax. This to me is just insanity. Why should someone who works harder, is more productive, and delivers more outcomes to benefit society, be taxed more? It slightly disinsitives actually doing a good job? And the income tax rate can be 50%+ in some cases? I really don't agree with this. If there was just a flat 20-25% tax regardless of how much you earned, I would be happy with this.

The other issues with tax, is that Governments will apply it to anything they see fit.

Buying a car? You must pay registration tax.
Buying a house? You must pay land tax.
Getting a mortgage? You must pay tax.
Importing items internationally? You must pay tax.
Buying gas? You must pay import tax.
Buying cigarettes or alcohol? You must pay import tax.

All of the indirect taxes, is what really kills it for me.

At that point, it's too much.

[Mr.sprin]

No matter the financial status of any individual, it is advisable to pay taxes even though the government may not make judicious use of those taxes being paid by residents of a country. Taxes generate revenues for government to maintain and build infrastructure and there is no way the government can disregard making sure that those dividends of democracy is not visible for all to see because if people pay taxes and the government doesn't want to use those taxes for their purpose then the citizens can do a peaceful protest to question the government why the taxes they paid are not allocated to what they are being paid for. Every civil workers is expected to pay taxes and it has become mandatory especially for civil workers because as soon as their salaries are paid it will be automatically deducted then as for people that have self made jobs, they can pay through direct assessment by going to the board of internal revenue to make payments.
It is important for every one in a country to pay taxes irrespective of the amount of salary or income you earn as this a primary payment needed to generate revenues in building infrastructures and public services.
We know that most government have become so corrupt such that they divert some of these revenues generated from taxation but it should not discourage anyone from paying taxes.

Paying taxes is an obligation for all of us, every job has something called exposure, and the community itself obeys tax obligations, but after the rampant theft of state tax money from the proceeds, people struggle to pay taxes but the money is misused by irresponsible individuals. answer, people today are not negligent about taxes, but they are lazy because taxes from small people are misused instead of for infrastructure development but instead they enrich themselves, many tax office officials steal tax money from the people, when will this country progress if the officials still consuming people's money that is not their right, this is what causes the emergence of "is taxation theft".

[Fortify]

Morals talking time.

Surely a matter of topic that has concerned many philosophers and intellectuals. I imagine most of (genuine) Bitcoiners be like "back-to-the-landers", libertarians, with desire to be self-sufficient. However, objectively speaking, taxation is theft. It's taking someone's property without their consent, and it is compulsory. It very much fits the definition of theft, even though you can find it slightly altered in other sources, like the Cambridge dictionary ("the crime of illegally taking something that belongs to someone else")

(That's right dear reader, that was a clickbait!)

The question is rather: Is taxation justifiable theft? A necessary evil? Libertarians tend to argue that it's wrong regardless the intentions. Taking someone's property without their permission is unethical, no matter how good you want to do with it. Others, who support social contract theory, argue that it's necessary and should be seen as "voluntary obligation".

There is no right or wrong answer (un)fortunately. Feel free to speak out loud.


My stance on this is that both "groups" bring some compelling arguments on the table, in favor of their ideology. I don't know. I think there's a place where we draw the line. For example, nowadays, I think we've crossed that line (towards more government of course). I don't think we need that much government into the markets.

I also feel really stupid when I see politicians talking about taxing gains from cryptocurrencies, with phrases like "unhosted wallets", or by attacking privacy services. They talk as if privacy invasion is a requirement, or "obligation" as per the social contract theory. I think this really crosses the line.

No, taxation is not theft. If done properly it is an almost perfect way for a society to share essential costs and help support the burden of the least fortunate. It should be spent on public services, which needs to be regularly assessed for cost effectiveness, but should give a country access to greater economies of scale when supplying things to the whole population. For example a nationwide healthcare system is likely to provide much better outcomes (when it has the proper framework and institutions in place) that many separate and purely profit driven companies - at least for the average recipient of these medical services. Living in a wild west means you are less likely to trust each other and end up building walls instead of bridges between neighbors.

[bbarisme]

I don't think taxation is theft, they (the government) have had a long discussion about it, where they get the taxes from and what the tax money is used for, I guess it's not just an overnight chat. Everyone has a different scale of income, and the government has a scale of tax payment calculation. The government builds roads, hospitals, schools, pays officials, and many other things using the tax money we pay, and we use those facilities. But if they start looking into everyone's crypto wallet, I think it's a very strange thing. they should only ask for tax payments from the cryptocurenncy company ?. not from everyone who has a crypto wallet itself.

Sometimes I wonder, when we do online work, why do we have to pay taxes?,
when we have paid taxes for the purchase of the tools we use to work, we pay for the internet and there are taxes for the internet we use, we pay for electricity and gas and there are taxes for that, we use a vehicle, and there are taxes for the vehicle itself, Even when we shop at the store, we pay tax on the items we buy, Shouldn't they just tax the company?

[RockBell]

What are the taxes being used for that should be our main concern and can the government survive without taxes, although we're being forced to pay our taxes but if it isn't mandatory task, would people be doing it willingly. Taxation is an avenue for the government to generate revenue to be used to pay for running the country. Are tax payers money being used for the good for her country or are they being misuse. For a country that has a working system that also has an accountable government, I won't see why they should be complaining about taxation when the outcome of the taxation are being seen all around.

The taxes are supposed to be used for the benefit of the public, it is supposed to be to provide utilities for the people for things they lack but the government will use force and make sure people are paying their tax. Government can survive with tax because the government always find a way making money. Because the government will need money to run things. If not that people are forced i don't think people will pay. Is not as if paying tax is not good but the government is not using if for what they are supposed to be using it for,  people don't longer have faith in the government anymore just because of corruption, and it is getting worse everyday. I don't think things will get better now.

Taxation isn't stealing for a civilized country that the governments are using the tax payers money in an accountable manner but in a corrupt country, taxation is stealing. The purpose of taxing has already been outlined by the governments so it only become stealing when they aren't using the taxes for the things they claimed it will be used for.

Tax is important and everyone is under the obligation that they must pay there tax. But they are not using it for its purpose and I think that is what is bothering people. Of they are transparent and if people are seen what the money is used for am sure nobody will complain about paying tax and every country pays more tax than one another. And people that works at revenue offices are always stealing. You will always see them look expensive,  all that money is gotten from stealing because all civil servant are average people but they still look expensive. And politicians are the greatest liar they will always want to convince people that what they are doing is right and justify that they are not thieves which they are.

[CK485]

No matter the financial status of any individual, it is advisable to pay taxes even though the government may not make judicious use of those taxes being paid by residents of a country. Taxes generate revenues for government to maintain and build infrastructure and there is no way the government can disregard making sure that those dividends of democracy is not visible for all to see because if people pay taxes and the government doesn't want to use those taxes for their purpose then the citizens can do a peaceful protest to question the government why the taxes they paid are not allocated to what they are being paid for. Every civil workers is expected to pay taxes and it has become mandatory especially for civil workers because as soon as their salaries are paid it will be automatically deducted then as for people that have self made jobs, they can pay through direct assessment by going to the board of internal revenue to make payments.
It is important for every one in a country to pay taxes irrespective of the amount of salary or income you earn as this a primary payment needed to generate revenues in building infrastructures and public services.
We know that most government have become so corrupt such that they divert some of these revenues generated from taxation but it should not discourage anyone from paying taxes.

by using a wider tax system in various sectors it can improve the welfare of the wider people with a good tax system increasing development in a country but in fact it is difficult to implement, because they do not channel the tax revenues because they commit a lot of corruption by stealing tax proceeds for themselves and that is a mistake that must be eradicated properly.