Why is the Dollar good and Bitcoin bad for people

[JamesNZ]

So basically, you're mad at me for stating the obvious fact that the Bitcoin payment system, unlike the banking ones, doesn't protect it's users by ensuring they get goods or services back.

Bitcoin is not a payment system, it's a currency. US Dollars alone do not ensure somebody's transaction is protected by the law, and people are victims of fraudulent transactions all of the time with US Dollars.

A payment system is something like Visa, American Express, and PayPal. Those products have facilities for dispute resolution, which is part of the reason they charge a relatively high transaction fee (although still nowhere near Bitcoin's typical transaction cost when the value stays relatively small).

While I'm sympathetic to some of your criticisms of the... baloney... that is often spread about Bitcoin and crypto (and I have written articles about crypto misinformation), answering those misconceptions with new misconceptions isn't the answer, and probably makes the whole situation even worse.

And if your criticism is the "pump and dump" nature of Bitcoin promoters, you are basically criticizing all investments, and even capitalism itself. Since the beginning of time people have offered their money to buy something in hopes it will increase in value so they can sell it later at a profit. Bitcoin is just one of millions of possible investments (or "bets" if you like--it's really the same thing). And yes, people who have made an investment will want to promote their investment in hopes of increasing the value of it--that's just human nature. But it happens with absolutely everything somebody invests in, from digital currencies, to stocks, to real estate, to baseball cards, and so on.

Wall Street investors have a term called, "talking one's book", which means somebody saying positive things about a stock that they already own. It's a good practice to be skeptical of somebody "talking their book", but like any kind of sale of anything, just because somebody is promoting in their own self-interest doesn't necessarily mean they are being dishonest or fraudulent.

Bitcoin (uppercase) is a system or network that manages numbers called bitcoins (lowercase). It's not a currency but it just imitates currencies via numbers. A currency is numbers representing debt in a banking system. Based on that debt the numbers enable their holders to get goods and services back, as explained it the OP. The word 'currency' was hijacked by the crypo/Bitcoin community as a part of the global scam operation that trays to extract currencies (good numbers) from the public and dump crypto (bad numbers) on it. Language manipulation is a key component of that operation.

Btw, "talking one's book" is one thing, false advertising is quite another. Bitcoin thrives on false advertising.

[armanda90]

Without a complete understanding and people have never been involved in investment, it will be difficult to find the advantages of bitcoin. Likewise with people who are cheated by others in investing and of course they will never understand the advantages of bitcoin itself. Bitcoin has a different nature and if it is associated with fiat currency, it is completely irrelevant. Bitcoin has the ability to maintain value and fiat does not have that ability, although there are many other advantages that are produced, but convincing the issue of value is much more understandable to most people.

Take a few examples and why do people say the dollar is good or why do people say bitcoin is bad? The reasons can vary and depend on each person's point of view of knowledge. Bitcoin will be considered good for those haters when it has obtained full legality but they dare not express it because it is contradictory.

Depend every person viewed talking about dollar as good and bitcoin bad based on their mind, when asking this question for the bitcoin holder or investor most of them no doubt answering about bitcoin is better investment or payment transaction way than dollar although have underlying and become the most popular fiat currency transaction payment.
Just bit weakness side of bitcoin not only legal payment transaction currency but fiat have adopted for longer time as global payment transaction and back up by most influential country United State.

In my opinion, bitcoin better than fiat on every function such as investment assets or adopting as payment transaction currency get faster or not limited amount for sending bitcoin when making huge transaction around the world. Payment trough bitcoin just take few moment awhile and ability for sending huge amount than dollar seems difficult with large amount transaction and take time exactly with country dollar not as their primary fiat.

[EarnOnVictor]

So basically, you're mad at me for stating the obvious fact that the Bitcoin payment system, unlike the banking ones, doesn't protect it's users by ensuring they get goods or services back.

Bitcoin is not a payment system, it's a currency.

You are right that Bitcoin is a currency but wrong to say Bitcoin is not a payment system. Without any doubt, Bitcoin is a payment system, which is why it's unique and void of any external control, thanks to its decentralised nature. For it to be working through a blockchain should have hinted to you that it is a payment system of its own and that the blockchain itself is that payment system.

This is where Bitcoin protocol is being mechanised despite being a currency still, so what do you call that?

[FatFork]

Hold on, conspiracy theorist. You directly accused me of being a liar and a scammer, so I'll ask you again, where exactly did I lie? Show me one single instance of me spreading propaganda or making false claims.  You built a strawman argument bigger than your ego. Where did you get the idea that I am actively spreading propaganda about Bitcoin? Show me the proof.

Come on, just cut the crap. You're scammer for a simple reason of trash talking the banking system - which protects holders of its numbers,

Excuse me? When did I do that? Give me at least one example.

and sweet talking the Bitcoin system that doesn't protect holders of its numbers. Whenever I write a post demonstrating the said fact via different arguments, you come along with your ad hominem attacks 

I'm actually trying to educate you and correct your misconceptions about Bitcoin and related technology. I don't recall ever using ad hominems against you as my main argument. If I'm wrong, please point me to such an instance.

or simply with talk that boils down to this: 'fiat is bad, bitcoins are good' or 'banks are evil, Bitcoin is our savior'.

You are lying again. I never claimed or said anything like that.

For some reason you became Bitcoin holder. In the same time, you know that bitcoins cannot satisfy your needs and wants, and you know that the system doesn't ensure you'll get good and services based on your holdings. In short, you know that the numbers issued by the Bitcoin system are bad. That's why you need to get rid of them. You need suckers to dump bad numbers on them. And the best way to attract suckers is to sweet talk about the thing you want to dump. To talk positive about bitcoins. Even though you know they are bad numbers. That's called propaganda. That's called scamming people. And that makes you a scammer.

Your claim that I'm a scammer because of my views on Bitcoin is absurd and unfounded. I'm simply presenting information based on my understanding of the facts. It's up to you to decide whether or not you find my arguments convincing.  But if you want to accuse me of something, at least use the facts and not twist my words and use lies. Your characterization of my arguments is a straw man fallacy. I've never claimed Bitcoin is a perfect system or that it's a cure-all for everything wrong with the financial system. My focus has been on highlighting the potential benefits of blockchain technology and the limitations of traditional banking. But things are never black and white. There is no "good" or "bad" here, nor would I ever present such misconceptions as a conclusion.

So, rather than resorting to personal attacks, why don't you engage with the substance of my arguments? If you disagree with my points, feel free to present counterarguments supported by evidence.

[legiteum]

It's not a currency but it just imitates currencies via numbers.

wut

A currency is numbers representing debt in a banking system. Based on that debt the numbers enable their holders to get goods and services back, as explained it the OP.

Yes, but those are numbers of some readily tradable entity e.g. a sovereign currency, a digital currency, shares of stock, and so on. A bank holds value of some kind. The investment instrument can be anything, and it doesn't matter--the bank is still a bank.

Bitcoin is valuable because people think it's valuable. This is the same reason US Dollars are valuable.

[redsun114]

Are you saying that fiat is legit and Bitcoin is not? You are seriously missing facts. Why is Bitcoin in the main financial stream today if your view is to be upheld? Bitcoin will even protect people's goods and services more than fiat because it is decentralised but fiat can still be controlled by the banks and others and stop any transaction they wish to stop.

I think he is only saying that BTC is decentralized, so it doesn't have like a chargeback feature like we saw in most fiat payment methods. Chargeback still have some draw backs, so being decentralized is sometimes better too. Fiat is still the main currency or payment method that is being used these days ( not BTC ) but I think we are getting there soon, due to the performance that BTC is showing.

Bitcoin is better as long as you deal with trusted parties. In the worst case, you may have a legal agreement about this and your transaction will push through at all cost.

It is not BTC is the ones that can protect the consumer but it was their selves. They have a full control of their money due to its decentralized nature. I think we still can choose to have that legal agreement you are talking about there in which there are also legal documents that will be signed even though BTC is decentralized. It gives us more confidence with our transactions because once something is wrong, we know that it can still be settled correctly.

[minairia3]

So basically, you're mad at me for stating the obvious fact that the Bitcoin payment system, unlike the banking ones, doesn't protect it's users by ensuring they get goods or services back.

Bitcoin is not a payment system, it's a currency.

You are right that Bitcoin is a currency but wrong to say Bitcoin is not a payment system. Without any doubt, Bitcoin is a payment system, which is why it's unique and void of any external control, thanks to its decentralised nature. For it to be working through a blockchain should have hinted to you that it is a payment system of its own and that the blockchain itself is that payment system.

This is where Bitcoin protocol is being mechanised despite being a currency still, so what do you call that?

@legiteum, Bitcoin is an innovative payment system, you don't have to wait for any 3rd party inquiry during BTC related transactions.
I actually got your point, you wanted to say BTC is a currency, and Electrum, Trezor, or Mycelium are a kind of payment system, right?

Look, those are wallets and those are open source, you could go without them if you have the capability to run Bitcoin Core on your PC. Whatever, Bitcoin is a payment system and many online or offline shops accept Bitcoin as a payment system nowadays.

@JamesNZ, People have been saying negative things about Bitcoin since its inception. Overcoming these odds, Bitcoin is being traded today at ~$60,000 from zero. So whatever the propaganda is now revealed. Bitcoin is not designed to provide brokerage services .

[legiteum]

I think he is only saying that BTC is decentralized, so it doesn't have like a chargeback feature like we saw in most fiat payment methods.

US Dollars don't have a chargeback feature either. The OP is mixing up a whole bunch of different concepts at once.

@legiteum, Bitcoin is an innovative payment system, you don't have to wait for any 3rd party inquiry during BTC related transactions.
I actually got your point, you wanted to say BTC is a currency, and Electrum, Trezor, or Mycelium are a kind of payment system, right?

Look, those are wallets and those are open source, you could go without them if you have the capability to run Bitcoin Core on your PC. Whatever, Bitcoin is a payment system and many online or offline shops accept Bitcoin as a payment system nowadays.

Online and offline shops use payment systems like Stripe or Visa and their banks or something they've built themselves--along with many others. Bitcoin is just a currency. It can be used either with or without a payment system, and it can be used in chargebacks or not, just like any means of value transfer.

Bitcoin and all other currencies are means of value transfer, not a means of doing business all by themselves.

And regardless, there's no different between Bitcoin and any other currency, digital or otherwise, in this context.

[JamesNZ]

Hold on, conspiracy theorist. You directly accused me of being a liar and a scammer, so I'll ask you again, where exactly did I lie? Show me one single instance of me spreading propaganda or making false claims.  You built a strawman argument bigger than your ego. Where did you get the idea that I am actively spreading propaganda about Bitcoin? Show me the proof.

Come on, just cut the crap. You're scammer for a simple reason of trash talking the banking system - which protects holders of its numbers,

Excuse me? When did I do that? Give me at least one example.

and sweet talking the Bitcoin system that doesn't protect holders of its numbers. Whenever I write a post demonstrating the said fact via different arguments, you come along with your ad hominem attacks  

I'm actually trying to educate you and correct your misconceptions about Bitcoin and related technology. I don't recall ever using ad hominems against you as my main argument. If I'm wrong, please point me to such an instance.

or simply with talk that boils down to this: 'fiat is bad, bitcoins are good' or 'banks are evil, Bitcoin is our savior'.

You are lying again. I never claimed or said anything like that.

For some reason you became Bitcoin holder. In the same time, you know that bitcoins cannot satisfy your needs and wants, and you know that the system doesn't ensure you'll get good and services based on your holdings. In short, you know that the numbers issued by the Bitcoin system are bad. That's why you need to get rid of them. You need suckers to dump bad numbers on them. And the best way to attract suckers is to sweet talk about the thing you want to dump. To talk positive about bitcoins. Even though you know they are bad numbers. That's called propaganda. That's called scamming people. And that makes you a scammer.

Your claim that I'm a scammer because of my views on Bitcoin is absurd and unfounded. I'm simply presenting information based on my understanding of the facts. It's up to you to decide whether or not you find my arguments convincing.  But if you want to accuse me of something, at least use the facts and not twist my words and use lies. Your characterization of my arguments is a straw man fallacy. I've never claimed Bitcoin is a perfect system or that it's a cure-all for everything wrong with the financial system. My focus has been on highlighting the potential benefits of blockchain technology and the limitations of traditional banking. But things are never black and white. There is no "good" or "bad" here, nor would I ever present such misconceptions as a conclusion.

So, rather than resorting to personal attacks, why don't you engage with the substance of my arguments? If you disagree with my points, feel free to present counterarguments supported by evidence.

But it is true. Scamming means making money by tricking people. If you publicly say something positive about Bitcoin you are tricking people. Because all of you Bitcoin holders want to get rid of your bitcoins. You want to dump numbers that are shown in your Bitcoin wallet applications and get as big as possible numbers on banknotes or bank accounts. You know that bitcoins are worthless and fiat valuable. But you constantly lie publicly, you claim the opposite. You know that if no new investors buy your numbers, the system that issues them won't protect you by ensuring you get goods and services for the numbers, or pay taxes with them. That's why you want fiat. You want numbers in the system that has such protection. So whatever positive you say about Bitcoin it's just a trick to get as much fiat as possible from the investors. That's why crypto is a global scam operation. It's the biggest scam operation in human history, with Bitcoin at the top. Politicians are too stupid to understand that. They write laws when it's too late, when a lot of people can't get their investments back and there's a general panic. Crypto will impoverish a large number of people, as with all big scams. People will then pressure the politicians and only then will they legally treat all crypto as a scam.

[irhact]

In my opinion, bitcoin better than fiat on every function such as investment assets or adopting as payment transaction currency get faster or not limited amount for sending bitcoin when making huge transaction around the world. Payment trough bitcoin just take few moment awhile and ability for sending huge amount than dollar seems difficult with large amount transaction and take time exactly with country dollar not as their primary fiat.

True, dollars can never be good and Bitcoin be considered bad, Bitcoin is better than the dollars in every aspect you want to review both currency. The only aspect the dollar has an advantage is adoption but Bitcoin is gaining ground in that area too. With time Bitcoin is going to catch up to the dollars and also surpass it. Bitcoin has the benefit of not devaluing your money, you keep making more money for holding Bitcoin but you can't get same benefits if your holding dollars. Bitcoin is fast but the dollars isn't fast, Bitcoin can be used for international transactions without needing any extra party to be involved as you can send and receive Bitcoin with your wallet but the dollars need an intermediary for converting dollars to other currency.

[Blitzboy]

In my opinion, bitcoin better than fiat on every function such as investment assets or adopting as payment transaction currency get faster or not limited amount for sending bitcoin when making huge transaction around the world. Payment trough bitcoin just take few moment awhile and ability for sending huge amount than dollar seems difficult with large amount transaction and take time exactly with country dollar not as their primary fiat.

True, dollars can never be good and Bitcoin be considered bad, Bitcoin is better than the dollars in every aspect you want to review both currency. The only aspect the dollar has an advantage is adoption but Bitcoin is gaining ground in that area too. With time Bitcoin is going to catch up to the dollars and also surpass it. Bitcoin has the benefit of not devaluing your money, you keep making more money for holding Bitcoin but you can't get same benefits if your holding dollars. Bitcoin is fast but the dollars isn't fast, Bitcoin can be used for international transactions without needing any extra party to be involved as you can send and receive Bitcoin with your wallet but the dollars need an intermediary for converting dollars to other currency.

Both the dollar and Bitcoin are useful instruments with different strengths. Fast, autonomous, and with amazing future expansion power is Bitcoin. Its the future. The dollar has a history, and the world trusts it. Thats huge.

Bitcoin can be volatile, but its also borderless and gaining ground every day. The dollar has a system that works, but it can be slow and cumbersome in the global market. Look, I honor both. Im a businessman, therefore I value both. Its about using every tool the proper way, not about taking sides.

Ignore the doubters that attempt to set one against the other. The wise money knows both and makes advantage of each. The future of finance isnt one or the other, its both working together. The actual winners will be found in that regard. Get educated, then know both currencies and make wise selections. That is all money flow.

[legiteum]

 Fast, autonomous, and with amazing future expansion power is Bitcoin.

Did you seriously call a currency that can take up to 30 minutes for a single transaction, "fast"? 

[vjudeu]

Did you seriously call a currency that can take up to 30 minutes for a single transaction, "fast"?

In the first version, mining new coins in "just a few hours" was considered "fast".

https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2009-January/014994.html

Code:

You can get coins by getting someone to send you some, or turn on
Options->Generate Coins to run a node and generate blocks.  I made
the proof-of-work difficulty ridiculously easy to start with, so
for a little while in the beginning a typical PC will be able to
generate coins in just a few hours.  It'll get a lot harder when
competition makes the automatic adjustment drive up the difficulty.
Generated coins must wait 120 blocks to mature before they can be
spent.

[lizarder]

Depend every person viewed talking about dollar as good and bitcoin bad based on their mind, when asking this question for the bitcoin holder or investor most of them no doubt answering about bitcoin is better investment or payment transaction way than dollar although have underlying and become the most popular fiat currency transaction payment.
Just bit weakness side of bitcoin not only legal payment transaction currency but fiat have adopted for longer time as global payment transaction and back up by most influential country United State.

In my opinion, bitcoin better than fiat on every function such as investment assets or adopting as payment transaction currency get faster or not limited amount for sending bitcoin when making huge transaction around the world. Payment trough bitcoin just take few moment awhile and ability for sending huge amount than dollar seems difficult with large amount transaction and take time exactly with country dollar not as their primary fiat

That's why I said different perspectives from each person's understanding and for those who don't like bitcoin will continue to say negative things about it and vice versa with the dollar itself. Bitcoin is indeed more reliable and has advantages in terms of investment although in terms of payment transactions it is still superior to fiat. But in all aspects it has more value and is more reliable to maintain value so that people prefer bitcoin for the long term than the dollar itself.

Fiat and dollars have received support from both the government and the local community and maybe they have been legal long before, so the function as a transaction tool is unlikely to be developed from bitcoin in the near future. Bitcoin is more anonymous and more secure regarding privacy even though it cannot be used as a legal transaction tool in most countries. But from a broader aspect, bitcoin does have a much safer side and can be controlled by each owner.

[legiteum]

[...] Bitcoin is more anonymous and more secure regarding privacy even though it cannot be used as a legal transaction tool in most countries. But from a broader aspect, bitcoin does have a much safer side and can be controlled by each owner.

Bitcoin is a public ledger, and without some tradecraft like using a mixer, Bitcoin is actually a lot less anonymous than almost any other form of payment since anybody on the internet can use chain analysis to triangulate your transactions.

And for offline transactions, clearly physical cash is going to be a lot safer from a privacy perspective.

[FatFork]

 Fast, autonomous, and with amazing future expansion power is Bitcoin.

Did you seriously call a currency that can take up to 30 minutes for a single transaction, "fast"? 

It depends on what you compare it to. Compared to traditional financial systems, Bitcoin's transaction speed is indeed slower. However, there are still some banking transactions that take days to process, not to mention that most bank-to-bank transactions received outside of their business hours, including on weekends, are usually processed on the next business day. 

Ultimately, whether Bitcoin's speed is sufficient depends on the specific use case. For some applications, it might be perfectly adequate, while others may require alternative solutions with faster transaction times.

[legiteum]

It depends on what you compare it to. Compared to traditional financial systems, Bitcoin's transaction speed is indeed slower. However, there are still some banking transactions that take days to process, not to mention that most bank-to-bank transactions received outside of their business hours, including on weekends, are usually processed on the next business day. 

Ultimately, whether Bitcoin's speed is sufficient depends on the specific use case. For some applications, it might be perfectly adequate, while others may require alternative solutions with faster transaction times.

I agree. For 0.001% of transactions that occur on a daily basis world-wide, Bitcoin is probably quite competitive .

(I created an architecture that will beat every known form of value transfer in the world including being 100x faster than standard credit card transactions, so forgive me if I get a bit too snarky about this point ).