Revealing how the public is scammed through Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies

[JamesNZ]

Scamming means tricking people to get their money. People will not just give their money to others. If you approach a random person on the street and ask them $100,000 they would say you're crazy. That's why a bait is needed. Something to trick people. Charles Ponzi used postal coupons for that purpose. Bernie Madoff used a split-strike conversion strategy. And today's scammers use cryptography as bait.
 
How does that bait work? Scammers first come up with a cryptographic system that shows numbers on the screen. They then claim that these numbers are money. Because nowadays, money, that is fiat money, is just numbers - either on bank accounts or banknotes. So, because their systems show numbers just like banking systems, scammers claim to have invented money. Finally, they claim that their money is better than fiat money because numbers are cryptographically protected and stored in decentralized databases, while the number holders are anonymous. Banks, on the other hand, store their numbers on paper(on banknotes) or in centralized databases, with the number holders being identified by real names.

Once the bait of crypto money is set, and the scammers have initially 'mined' large amounts with negligible electricity consumption, they start spreading propaganda about the revolutionary money of the future. And so people start investing fiat money or useful items - goods, services, etc. However, what the scammers won't tell, is that their systems don't return useful items. And this is the crux of the scams. Banks, unlike cryptosystems, have a mechanism for returning useful items to those who hold numbers. And useful items are essentially what the scammers want. They want goods, services, labor, real estate, the ability to pay taxes, etc. Because no one can benefit from watching numbers.

How do banks return useful items to number holders? By issuing numbers as debt. A new bank deposit, i.e. a number on a bank account, is created when a commercial bank issues a loan or a central bank subscribes to a government bond. Of course, when that number is paid out in banknotes, nothing essentially changes. It still represents debt but is written on paper instead of on the screen. Once the numbers are created that way, debtors trade them in the market for labor, goods, services and other useful items. However since they represent debt towards the banks, debtors are forced to sell useful items to those who hold these numbers.

Further, if debtors default on their loans and thus essentially fail to return useful items to number holders, the collaterals will be activated and the banks will sell debtors' property at auctions. Who will have access to these auctions? Well, the holders of bank-issued numbers. Since the banks issued these numbers as debt, they must accept them to liquidate the unpaid debt. Finally, because governments issue bonds denominated in bank-issued numbers, they must accept these numbers as payment for taxes. Otherwise, they cannot pay off their bonds. That is, therefore, how the banks return goods, services, labor, real estate, the ability to pay taxes, and other useful items to number holders.

Cryptosystems don't have such a return mechanism. After people join a cryptosystem by investing useful items or fiat money, and get numbers on the screen, the only way they can return their investments is if new investors enter the system. So, just like in the schemes organized by Charles Ponzi or Bernie Madoff. Regardless if they invested tons of electricity through 'mining', cars, houses, years of labor, millions of dollars, whatever, cryptosystems can't help them at all. Without new investors, they cannot get anything back.

That's why whenever someone creates a cryptocurrency what they actually created is bait. A bait to attract investors and get fiat money or useful items. By holding fiat money the scammer is in a system that ensures the return of useful items. While victims are left in cryptosystems where they depend on new investors. If new investors stop coming, the victims cannot return useful items.

And that is how the bait of cryptography is used in today's investment scams. That bait is so good that it tricked even some governments and institutional investors, which has never been seen before.

[Ambatman]

With cryptocurrencies, such a return mechanism does not exist. Cryptosystems are just giant, decentrally organized databases that record past and present number holders. There is no one and nothing in these systems to protect users by enabling them to return useful items. Once you entered a cryptosystem and it shows you a number in your crypto wallet, the only way you can get useful items back is if new investors enter the system. So, just like in Ponzi and pyramid schemes. Regardless if current investors invested tons of electricity through so-called 'mining', cars, houses, years of labor, millions of dollars, whatever, the system can't help them at all. Without new investors, they cannot get anything back.

Cryptosystems as you call it are not decentralized database
Bitcoin is
Don't associate Bitcoin with alts.
And about your reasoning there are quite some flaw
Bitcoin isn't just an investment, it has is inherent utility
Even collectibles have values not to mention an asset with its use.
The bank system won't function if more people don't join in too
Can a bank survive with one customer?
Who said they don't get anything back
They got Bitcoin and that's what's called exchange
Just like you exchange your service for 'divine' papers.
Well people like you can't be convinced nor individuals like I
I respect your view none the less even if I find it biased against Bitcoin.

And those who publicly promote them and at the same time hold them are scammers.

Sigh guess I'm a Scammer.

[JamesNZ]

With cryptocurrencies, such a return mechanism does not exist. Cryptosystems are just giant, decentrally organized databases that record past and present number holders. There is no one and nothing in these systems to protect users by enabling them to return useful items. Once you entered a cryptosystem and it shows you a number in your crypto wallet, the only way you can get useful items back is if new investors enter the system. So, just like in Ponzi and pyramid schemes. Regardless if current investors invested tons of electricity through so-called 'mining', cars, houses, years of labor, millions of dollars, whatever, the system can't help them at all. Without new investors, they cannot get anything back.

Cryptosystems as you call it are not decentralized database
Bitcoin is
Don't associate Bitcoin with alts.
And about your reasoning there are quite some flaw
Bitcoin isn't just an investment, it has is inherent utility
Even collectibles have values not to mention an asset with its use.
The bank system won't function if more people don't join in too
Can a bank survive with one customer?
Who said they don't get anything back
They got Bitcoin and that's what's called exchange
Just like you exchange your service for 'divine' papers.
Well people like you can't be convinced nor individuals like I
I respect your view none the less even if I find it biased against Bitcoin.

And those who publicly promote them and at the same time hold them are scammers.

Sigh guess I'm a Scammer.

Here we go again. Collectibles,..... gold, art, or whatever you Bitcoin advocates usually compare to Bitcoin, are not numbers shown to you by a system. On the other hand, bitcoins, crypto in general or fiat currencies are numbers shown by a system. The topic here is that the systems that issue fiat currencies have a mechanism to return useful items to number holders while the systems that issue crypto do not have it. That's why all you crypto holders want to dump crypto on investors and get as much fiat as possible. You do that by spreading disinformation that crypto is better than fiat. Basically you try to trick people to get their money.

[kryptqnick]

All those who hold cryptocurrencies have only one goal - to dump them on investors and get as much bank-issued money as possible. When they publicly promote crypto it is solely for this goal.
~
With cryptocurrencies, such a return mechanism does not exist. Cryptosystems are just giant, decentrally organized databases that record past and present number holders. There is no one and nothing in these systems to protect users by enabling them to return useful items.
~
Everything positive you've ever heard about cryptocurrencies is just a way to attract as many investors as possible and extract as much bank-issued money as possible from them. That's why cryptocurrencies are a scam. And those who publicly promote them and at the same time hold them are scammers.

I've shortened it to address specific claims. First, while a lot of crypto investors want to eventually sell their coins for fiat, that's not the sole goal. Some are waiting to pay directly in Bitcoin for a house, a car, or something else they can be interested. Then there are also people who spend cryptos, including Bitcoin, directly through gambling and sports betting. There are places that accept Bitcoin, ways to spend it directly. But most of the time you need to convert it into local fiat to spend. Note that the same is true for fiat like the USD: almost everywhere in the world, you need to exchange it for local fiat to actually buy goods and services.
I don't believe that debt is so essential to what can function as money. As long as there's high liquidity and wide trust in a certain purchasing value, anything can act as a currency.

[Darker45]

Is this another discussion about intrinsic value?

Anyway, first off, Bitcoin isn't some kind of stone or shell or leaf that derives its value by merely assuming that it has value. Bitcoin didn't gain value simply because two or three or a group of nerds agreed that it has value. Bitcoin's value came from its very features. If you think that Bitcoin is just a mere number, then you don't understand Bitcoin at all.

Bitcoin isn't just number out of thin air. If there's a thing like that, it's fiat. Do you think fiat money is created because something like labor or goods are invested? No. Banks and governments can create money out of nothing at all. The debts that banks have been issuing are supported by nothing. If you believe otherwise, then you don't understand fiat money at all.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Is this another discussion about intrinsic value?

Is this a discussion of anything? 

Yet another thread where I could swear the OP was written by an AI program, but after checking JamesNZ's post history this is consistent with the rest of his jargo-babbling.  What I see is a bunch of buzzwords and nonsense.  Please just lock this thread and don't pollute bitcointalk any more than it already has been.

[ditec_wrogn]

Hey there, just wanted to point out that you've been spreading FUD about crypto in multiple threads now. It's pretty clear at this point that you're just trolling and trying to stir up controversy.

Your arguments are full of misinformation and logical fallacies, and they're not contributing anything meaningful to the conversation. In fact, all you're doing is spreading fear and confusion among people who may not be as familiar with the technology as you are.

It's one thing to have a differing opinion or to raise valid concerns, but it's another thing entirely to make baseless accusations and spread false information. But if you're just here to troll and stir up trouble, then I'd prefer if you took your negativity elsewhere.

[Doan9269]

Scam is defined as tricking people to get their money.

That is not a complete definition of scam, because if they track you alone does not makes them attack you until you have left yourself being vulnerable, deceived or out of your own greediness for the love of money fall into their set trap, so here, the entry point for scam to occur is what we will determine, if we are not loosed by the way of leaving any sensitive information open to others or greedy enough to accept vain offers for free money online.

That's why cryptocurrencies are a scam. And those who publicly promote them and at the same time hold them are scammers.

I disagrees, cryptocurrency is not scam, in every sectors of life you will discover scam, so tell me why that of cryptocurrency be an exception, are you hearing about scam for the first time in fiat currencies.

[legiteum]

[...]

Otherwise, they cannot pay off their bonds. That is, therefore, how the holders of bank-issued numbers get goods, services, labor, real estate, the ability to pay taxes, etc. In short, with the help of the banks they return useful items.

[...]

You don't seem to understand the difference between a currency and a payment system. US Dollars are a currency. If I hand somebody a hundred dollar bill in exchange for a fancy yoyo, and they don't give me the yoyo--the the yoyo is defective--then my recourse is... the same as if I used a digital currency.

Conversely, there are already payment systems that guarantee the delivery and/or efficacy of goods or services, that... except Bitcoin as payment.

The currency in use is a technical detail that doesn't matter.

(And yes, I agree with others we may well be arguing with ChatGPT here, but I thought this was a good thing to clarify nevertheless).

[darkangel11]

Why do cryptocurrency holders have the said goal? Because banks, unlike cryptosystems, enable them to return useful items.

Have you ever heard of companies that accept bitcoin payments? Have you ever heard of gift cards? How about bitcoin payment processors? Even if I really want to go through fiat money, I don't have to deal with a bank to do it. I can go to a physical exchange where they give me cash for my bitcoin, or send it to an ATM.

Namely, when people invest in some fiat or crypto currency, the system that issues that currency only shows them a number on the screen or on paper.

What about people who don't invest any fiat, but their time and skills? I did some of that back in the day.
Your understanding of bitcoin is very limited, which is why you pass your verdict so fast. You seem to give it a deep thought, but due to your very basic knowledge you're clearly subjective.

[JamesNZ]

All those who hold cryptocurrencies have only one goal - to dump them on investors and get as much bank-issued money as possible. When they publicly promote crypto it is solely for this goal.
~
With cryptocurrencies, such a return mechanism does not exist. Cryptosystems are just giant, decentrally organized databases that record past and present number holders. There is no one and nothing in these systems to protect users by enabling them to return useful items.
~
Everything positive you've ever heard about cryptocurrencies is just a way to attract as many investors as possible and extract as much bank-issued money as possible from them. That's why cryptocurrencies are a scam. And those who publicly promote them and at the same time hold them are scammers.

I've shortened it to address specific claims. First, while a lot of crypto investors want to eventually sell their coins for fiat, that's not the sole goal. Some are waiting to pay directly in Bitcoin for a house, a car, or something else they can be interested. Then there are also people who spend cryptos, including Bitcoin, directly through gambling and sports betting. There are places that accept Bitcoin, ways to spend it directly. But most of the time you need to convert it into local fiat to spend. Note that the same is true for fiat like the USD: almost everywhere in the world, you need to exchange it for local fiat to actually buy goods and services.
I don't believe that debt is so essential to what can function as money. As long as there's high liquidity and wide trust in a certain purchasing value, anything can act as a currency.

In short, they want to dump numbers shown to them by the Bitcoin system on investors because the system cannot return useful items to them. Exactly my point. They want cars, real estate, haircuts, gambling or betting tickets, whatever useful, because the Bitcoin system, unlike banks, has no mechanism for returning them something useful. It's basically a pyramid scheme into which old investors lure new investors by spreading disinformation.

[JamesNZ]

Hey there, just wanted to point out that you've been spreading FUD about crypto in multiple threads now. It's pretty clear at this point that you're just trolling and trying to stir up controversy.

Your arguments are full of misinformation and logical fallacies, and they're not contributing anything meaningful to the conversation. In fact, all you're doing is spreading fear and confusion among people who may not be as familiar with the technology as you are.

It's one thing to have a differing opinion or to raise valid concerns, but it's another thing entirely to make baseless accusations and spread false information. But if you're just here to troll and stir up trouble, then I'd prefer if you took your negativity elsewhere.

Saying something doesn't make it so. You need to show where in the opening post are logical fallacies, trolling, misinformation, etc. You need to prove your claims.

[m2017]

Everything positive you've ever heard about cryptocurrencies is just a way to attract as many investors as possible and extract as much bank-issued money as possible from them.

IPOs, startups, just business, and other ways of raising money for the sake of making a profit (getting as much money as possible) all fall under your definition of fraud.

How are cryptocurrencies fundamentally different from the stock market, shares, and other traditional financial instruments, if we consider the method of attracting money? Nothing.

Cryptocurrencies are no more fraudulent than all of the above.

That's why cryptocurrencies are a scam. And those who publicly promote them and at the same time hold them are scammers.

Well, well, well...

Are you saying that all holders are scammers? You seem to be confusing the concept of fraud. I'll try to explain it to you clearly.

Fraud, when some people take away (the victim voluntarily gives) value from others under various pretexts. In the case of a bitcoin hold, the holder doesn't receive any value from anyone, but, on the contrary, loses it, that is, the value in the form of bitcoin purchased with money is stored in the same place (crypto wallet) for a long time. From this perspective, the holder (in some sense) should be called a victim rather than a fraudster.

[JamesNZ]

Everything positive you've ever heard about cryptocurrencies is just a way to attract as many investors as possible and extract as much bank-issued money as possible from them.

IPOs, startups, just business, and other ways of raising money for the sake of making a profit (getting as much money as possible) all fall under your definition of fraud.

How are cryptocurrencies fundamentally different from the stock market, shares, and other traditional financial instruments, if we consider the method of attracting money? Nothing.

Cryptocurrencies are no more fraudulent than all of the above.

That's why cryptocurrencies are a scam. And those who publicly promote them and at the same time hold them are scammers.

Well, well, well...

Are you saying that all holders are scammers? You seem to be confusing the concept of fraud. I'll try to explain it to you clearly.

Fraud, when some people take away (the victim voluntarily gives) value from others under various pretexts. In the case of a bitcoin hold, the holder doesn't receive any value from anyone, but, on the contrary, loses it, that is, the value in the form of bitcoin purchased with money is stored in the same place (crypto wallet) for a long time. From this perspective, the holder (in some sense) should be called a victim rather than a fraudster.

Bingo! This is exactly how you crypto scammers operate. You say Bitcoin is like having stocks. That's disinformation. Stocks are not systems that just show you numbers on the screen. Stocks are shares in businesses. Crypto and fiat are not. Then you say crypo is like fiat. And although both crypto and fiat are systems that show numbers when you join them, the fiat systems have a mechanism to return useful items to people, as explained in the OP. Crypto systems lack such a mechanism. That's why you crypto holders want to dump crypto and get fiat. And you do that by spreading disinformation, by tricking people to get their fiat money. Hence, you're scammers.

[Zoomic]

OP, the major problem you and every other critics of Bitcoin have with Bitcoin is that it is highly decentralized, no one controls it. Oh yea! No one is gonna request for my house, cars or anything of value as a collateral in exchange for some good figures. Everyone controls it and the system regulates it, sounds like magic huh?

There wouldn't be any need to convert Bitcoin first to FIAT for making payments if everyone agrees to accept Bitcoin as a medium of payment, this was what Bitcoin was originally meant for. Good news, some organisations have already adopted Bitcoin.

While FIAT keeps battling with inflation, Bitcoin is appreciating in value and the more the value appreciates, a lot of people are gradually adopting it. In few years to come, we would know who the real scammers are between the government/traditional banks and Bitcoin.

[JamesNZ]

OP, the major problem you and every other critics of Bitcoin have with Bitcoin is that it is highly decentralized, no one controls it. Oh yea! No one is gonna request for my house, cars or anything of value as a collateral in exchange for some good figures. Everyone controls it and the system regulates it, sounds like magic huh?

There wouldn't be any need to convert Bitcoin first to FIAT for making payments if everyone agrees to accept Bitcoin as a medium of payment, this was what Bitcoin was originally meant for. Good news, some organisations have already adopted Bitcoin.

While FIAT keeps battling with inflation, Bitcoin is appreciating in value and the more the value appreciates, a lot of people are gradually adopting it. In few years to come, we would know who the real scammers are between the government/traditional banks and Bitcoin.

I have no problem with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is just a system that shows numbers to investors. What I do is describe how people are scammed via disinformation spread by existing Bitcoin investors.

[Reatim]

Scam is defined as tricking people to get their money. Whenever you hear something positive about cryptocurrencies, that they are the money of the future, some kind of better alternative to money issued by banks, etc., it falls under the above definition. It's tricking people to get their money. All those who hold cryptocurrencies have only one goal - to dump them on investors and get as much bank-issued money as possible. When they publicly promote crypto it is solely for this goal.

A lot may have this kind of intention but many users of crypto uses it for their transactions and they prefer holding crypto so that they can hold their own money and not give control to any intermediary.

Promoting crypto specifically bitcoin is not a scam. A scam is promising false ideas for the sake of gaining profit but bitcoin is not just about gaining profit.

[SamReomo]

I agree with TSC, this thread should be locked as it doesn't contian anything valuable or useful but has been created to pollute the forum.

The OP just wants to make such threads and reply in his own thread as many times as possible to show how good he can explain things but in actual we know what's the truth.

That's why I believe all of us should stop wasting our time on threads that hold no good value for us. Bitcoin critics often come with such useless threads and the best we can do it to avoid such threads.

[Saint-loup]

Describing cryptos as just a Greater Fool Theory scheme is not relevant IMO. Nowadays, you can buy many things with cryptos, even if you still can't buy all goods and services available except maybe in very few countries such as San Salvador. So unlike what you're saying Bitcoin can already be used as currency to pay tangible things. But unlike fiat currencies nobody can prevent you to pay what you want to who you want with it, and nobody not knowing your private keys will be able to seize your funds.

[JamesNZ]

Scam is defined as tricking people to get their money. Whenever you hear something positive about cryptocurrencies, that they are the money of the future, some kind of better alternative to money issued by banks, etc., it falls under the above definition. It's tricking people to get their money. All those who hold cryptocurrencies have only one goal - to dump them on investors and get as much bank-issued money as possible. When they publicly promote crypto it is solely for this goal.

A lot may have this kind of intention but many users of crypto uses it for their transactions and they prefer holding crypto so that they can hold their own money and not give control to any intermediary.

Promoting crypto specifically bitcoin is not a scam. A scam is promising false ideas for the sake of gaining profit but bitcoin is not just about gaining profit.

Holding crypto is not a scam. But holding it, spreading disinformation about it and then selling it is a scam. Especially if you are an influential person.