Muun to Luno transaction question

[NightShadow02]

I asked this on /r/bitcoinbeginners and immediately got DM'd by two scammers

Thought I'd ask here to see if anyone has any insight into this situation

I was sending a test transfer to my Luno wallet from Muun wallet. like the safest amount imaginable with the slowest fee possible on Apr 5.

It took a while and eventually Muun says that the transaction failed.

Then fast forwards to today, I receive the deposit in my Luno wallet with a charge which is equivalent to the amount I transferred. So I got essentially nothing after waiting months for the test transfer.

Luno help docs claims that they charge an equivalent fee in receiving funds to avoid a dusting attack.

I tried contacting their support to try to get that fee waived since it seems like an unfair charge. Support claims that the charge 'do not go to us at all, as it was used to process this transaction on the blockchain'

May I know if this is accurate?

[LoyceV]

I receive the deposit in my Luno wallet with a charge which is equivalent to the amount I transferred.
~
they charge an equivalent fee in receiving funds to avoid a dusting attack.

I don't know either of this wallets, but it sounds like a custodial service. In my book, a "wallet" gives you and only you full control over your private keys. Anything else is custodial. They may make it look like a wallet, but it sounds more like an exchange.
My advice: get a real wallet, like Electrum. If you hold a higher value, get a hardware wallet. But don't keep your money on a custodial wallet or exchange.

[khaled0111]

^^
I did a quick research and it seems Luno is, indeed, a custodial service and it's basically an exchange as it offers buyind, selling and trading cryptocurrencies services.

OP, if you sent less than 0.0001 btc then it will not be credited to your account:

If you’re receiving Bitcoin and the amount received is lower than BTC 0.0001, an equivalent fee will be charged to combat dusting attacks.

It may seem unfair but it's the same as the min deposit limit that most exchanges and other service providers have.

[BitMaxz]

I think Muun Wallet is for Lightning wallet I used this wallet in the past for one-time use just to experience how Lightning works so I think the reason why it failed is that you are trying to send BTC from a Lightning network using Muun Wallet to Luno wallet which I think does not support(I can't find information for Luno if it does support lightning) unless you are withdrawing BTC from Muun wallet.

I searched a bit about the charge fee for Muun wallet and it seems their fee is expensive I don't know why keep using the Muun wallet since the current on-chain mempool suggests 5sat/vb which is very cheap compared to the very expensive fee using lightning on Muun wallet.

Check this link below who is complaining about Muun charge fee.

- https://www.reddit.com/r/lightningnetwork/comments/1d0dyk5/muun_wallet_fees_fluctuating_wildly_why_does_this/

If I were you stop using this wallet.

[Nwada001]

I tried contacting their support to try to get that fee waived since it seems like an unfair charge. Support claims that the charge 'do not go to us at all, as it was used to process this transaction on the blockchain'

May I know if this is accurate?

If the amount is very small, it's possible that all could have been spent when you tried to send it from Muun, and the amount that could have been left to reach your luno might not be enough to reach their minimum deposit amount.

I don't know either of this wallets, but it sounds like a custodial service. In my book, a "wallet" gives you and only you full control over your private keys. Anything else is custodial. They may make it look like a wallet, but it sounds more like an exchange.

You are absolutely correct. Luno is an exchange, not a wallet, but most newbies don't know the difference between a wallet and an exchange these days. Back when I knew about Luno, it was a centralised exchange offering service to only African countries, which I don't know about now. An account must be created in order to be given an address for deposit, which moves it from being a wallet.

[logfiles]

Luno is a custodial service. It sort of reminds me about LocalBitcoins. They would charge "a deposit" fee, which other similar services don't even charge. To me, it's more of exploitation. The reason your transaction could have probably delayed getting confirmed is the low transfer fee rate that you might have used back then.  OP. there's nothing much you can do except just avoid using Luno and look for a good alternative noncustodial service. The question is, what is the major reason as to why you preferred using Luno?

[NightShadow02]

what is the major reason as to why you preferred using Luno?

if i'm understanding correctly, it's mainly for me to exchange my currency into btc. I moved most of my btc into Muun until i get a 'real' wallet.



I was planning to exchange my BTC back into my currency by transferring my Muun funds back into Luno. I did a test transfer on Apr 5 and used the lowest transaction fee since it was just a test and was also curious how long it would take. Didn't expect it to take about 3 months to appear in Luno.

am I playing with fire so far?  

[khaled0111]

They would charge "a deposit" fee, which other similar services don't even charge. To me, it's more of exploitation.

Are you sure about that? Because that's not what they say in the guide I linked in my previous reply?
It says that they don't charge any fees for deposits except for deposits smaller than 0.0001 btc, for which the fee will be equivalent to the deposited amount.
This makes perfect sense for bitcoin deposits, tbh. The reason is that they will have to move those coins at a certain point either when the customer requests a withdrawal or when they need to consolidate their inputs. Accepting dust amounts won't be profitable for them, hence the min deposit limit.

[logfiles]

They would charge "a deposit" fee, which other similar services don't even charge. To me, it's more of exploitation.

Are you sure about that? Because that's not what they say in the guide I linked in my previous reply?
It says that they don't charge any fees for deposits except for deposits smaller than 0.0001 btc, for which the fee will be equivalent to the deposited amount.

I was making a reference to Localbitcoins though. More like a remembrance of the hardships we used to have with them.

This makes perfect sense for bitcoin deposits, tbh. The reason is that they will have to move those coins at a certain point either when the customer requests a withdrawal or when they need to consolidate their inputs. Accepting dust amounts won't be profitable for them, hence the min deposit limit.

Luno is just indirectly saying don't deposit anything less than 0.0001 BTC or your account will not be credited. Honestly, 0.0001 BTC is still higher limit if you compare the minimum deposit limits other exchanges require. The fees they charge for withdrawals should be able to cater for the dust inputs just like other exchanges do.

I was planning to exchange my BTC back into my currency by transferring my Muun funds back into Luno. I did a test transfer on Apr 5 and used the lowest transaction fee since it was just a test and was also curious how long it would take. Didn't expect it to take about 3 months to appear in Luno.

Check your transaction ID to know when exactly your transaction was confirmed, but you might want to look for an alternative service you can use for cashing out your Bitcoins into fiat.

[nc50lc]

I tried contacting their support to try to get that fee waived since it seems like an unfair charge. Support claims that the charge 'do not go to us at all, as it was used to process this transaction on the blockchain'

May I know if this is accurate?

They're telling the truth. (more of "half the truth" or due to the answer not being technical)
If they want to spend that specific UTXO with an alleged "dust" amount, its amount would just be enough to cover for the size that it will add to their consolidation transaction.
But in cases when the deposit is close to the maximum dust amount that they've set and the average fee rate is relatively small, any excess amount after the fee will go to them.

For example: if that deposit is about 5000 satoshi given the deposit address is a P2SH-SegWit
and it's used as an input when they consolidate multiple deposits that they've received from their customers:
It will add about 91 vBytes (approx) to the overall size of the transaction, so for example; at 10sat/vB, it will need about 910satoshi to spend it.
In this case, they gain about 4090satoshi from that non-credited deposit.

But if the deposit is about 1000satoshi and the fee that they have to use is 20sat/vB (when fee is high), it will need about 1820satoshi to spend it.
In this case, they will have to provide an additional 820 satoshi to spend it.

Overall, it's based from the approximate transaction fee and the dust amount their users have deposited.
(the maximum is a bit high though, probably because they don't want any financial loss)

[FinneysTrueVision]

am I playing with fire so far?  

Now that you are aware that you need to deposit an amount greater than 0.0001 BTC for your account to be credited, you should not lose any more money by making this mistake again. You should use mempool.space’s fee estimation to choose a reasonable fee for your transfer that won’t take months to confirm. It was an honest mistake but it only cost you a small amount. At least you weren’t scammed, so you can still go through with exchanging your BTC if that’s what you want to do.

[ABCbits]

what is the major reason as to why you preferred using Luno?

if i'm understanding correctly, it's mainly for me to exchange my currency into btc. I moved most of my btc into Muun until i get a 'real' wallet.

AFAIK Muun is supposed to be real wallet, since they claim itself as self-custodial wallet and it's also open-source.

I was planning to exchange my BTC back into my currency by transferring my Muun funds back into Luno. I did a test transfer on Apr 5 and used the lowest transaction fee since it was just a test and was also curious how long it would take. Didn't expect it to take about 3 months to appear in Luno.

During that time, there were so many TX created where i expect most of those TX has far higher TX fee than yours. That's probably why it took 3 months.

[NightShadow02]

thank you everyone you've all been very insightful

[apogio]

AFAIK Muun is supposed to be real wallet, since they claim itself as self-custodial wallet and it's also open-source.

Muun wallet is "semi-custodial". I don't like the term, but I can't find a better one. Let me explain.

They give you a way to backup the wallet. It's some sort of mnemonic (something like: ALKJ-OQPA-SMAP-...). So, you can use this mnemonic to re-generate your wallet again on Muun.

But, it is definetely not self-custodial, because they have full control over your funds. They control your channels, offering you a very cool way to send both LN and on-chain payments from the "same" balance etc.

Furthermore, their mnemonic is application specific, which means it can't be used outside of Muun.

One would say, their mnemonic is equivalent to the email-backup that Wallet of Satoshi offers.

Anyway, I have used Muun without issues in the past. It's a good wallet in my opinion.

[LoyceV]

Muun wallet is "semi-custodial". I don't like the term, but I can't find a better one. Let me explain.

They give you a way to backup the wallet. It's some sort of mnemonic (something like: ALKJ-OQPA-SMAP-...).

That's not "semi"-custodial, it's 100% plain regular custodial. A mnemonic has nothing to do with being custodial or not. I can make up a mnemonic right know and tell you you can use it to get your money from me. That only means something if you trust me, and even trusting me isn't enough if I decide against it.

Don't use custodial wallets, unless you known exactly what risks you're taking. And in general avoid any wallet that makes you believe they're non-custodial while they're not!

[FinneysTrueVision]

But, it is definetely not self-custodial, because they have full control over your funds. They control your channels, offering you a very cool way to send both LN and on-chain payments from the "same" balance etc.

Furthermore, their mnemonic is application specific, which means it can't be used outside of Muun.

One would say, their mnemonic is equivalent to the email-backup that Wallet of Satoshi offers.

Anyway, I have used Muun without issues in the past. It's a good wallet in my opinion.

Muun does not have full control, and cannot steal your onchain funds. It is a multisig wallet where one of the keys is shared. Muun is similar to Blockstream Green, where multisig wallets can only be recovered in their specific wallet app or through a special recovery tool, but not in third party wallets. For the LN aspect, your funds are always onchain, but they use submarine swaps when you want to send or receive a lightning payment.

[apogio]

Don't use custodial wallets, unless you known exactly what risks you're taking. And in general avoid any wallet that makes you believe they're custodial while they're not!

You must mean “self custodial”. Yeah I get your point.

I used to agree with that a lot. I still do, obviously. But I am still finding it difficult to set up and successfully maintain my own LN node. I do have an LN node, but for me it still needs lots of work.

Instead, I use a custodial wallet for small day to day payments. I only keep small amounts (less than 100 euros) and I am very comfortable with it.

My mobile wallet is all about convenience. Therefore, I am well aware of all the risks and I have purposely chosen to use a custodial LN solution.

[LoyceV]

Don't use custodial wallets, unless you known exactly what risks you're taking. And in general avoid any wallet that makes you believe they're non-custodial while they're not!

You must mean “self custodial”. Yeah I get your point.

You're right, I forgot the "non" part of "non-custodial". I've fixed my post and your quote above.

I used to agree with that a lot. I still do, obviously. But I am still finding it difficult to set up and successfully maintain my own LN node. I do have an LN node, but for me it still needs lots of work.

Don't get me wrong: I'm okay with custodial LN! That's why I made the exception "unless you know (and understand) the risks". If you know it's non-custodial and the wallet is honest about it, than by all means: use it for small amounts (if you trust the wallet provider)! Especially for LN that's much easier and (in my opinion) worth the risk and small fee. People keep billions of dollars worth in crypto on centralized exchanges anyway.

Instead, I use a custodial wallet for small day to day payments. I only keep small amounts (less than 100 euros) and I am very comfortable with it.

Even better if you can fund it through an instant exchange using a low-fee altcoin to avoid high on-chain Bitcoin fees (although fees aren't that bad at the moment).

My mobile wallet is all about convenience. Therefore, I am well aware of all the risks and I have purposely chosen to use a custodial LN solution.

Great! Don't change it

I just realize this is going off-topic. I'll stop here