Standard practice for online Casinos going under - how are cash outs handled?

[ChiBitCTy]

I was going through some physical bitcoins I have and came across this LuckyBit coin which my buddy designed for the now defunct LuckyBit Casino. I never really read up on them so decided to do so out of boredom. It seems back in 2021 they closed shop. They announced here on btalk (assuming they did on their website as well ) that they were closing and a deadline of final date to withdraw funds. It got me wondering , what is standard practice for closing an online casino and what laws (if any) must be followed when doing so? Is there a such thing as “international casino laws” ?  (Probably a ridiculous question but had to ask anyhow)


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With luckybit, it was a shady exit. What’s crazy is the casino closure was announced on Jan 19th & users had until just Jan 31st to withdraw balances (even worse some balances were ineligible for withdraw , such as a .001btc balance and below ..and apparently even if you tried to make a deposit to top off your balance to qualify for a full withdrawal, it was seemingly not allowed).

Here’s their forum announcement: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5211259.msg56133721#msg56133721


So what happens today if your Casino announces a closure? Do some casinos have some sort of “deposit offloading” where funds can sit and wait to be redeemed for an extended period of time? Are there any current “standard practices” to abide by?  

This casino deep dive had me thinking all the above out loud and wanted to discuss ..

[ryzaadit]

Do you think, some government or online license will gonna to process these?

We are in online casino, while mostly licensed from (CURACAO). These gaming licenses never process any complain, they just sell the license. Comparing to Landbase casino like (VEGAS) there is some gaming security for processing & mediator each case between the casino & user.

Back to the topic you are asking, it's none. Because during registration you are agreeing to mostly terms & conditions (in this term, there always put something: they have some right to make rules or change them). Basically, even you don't like it the rules & time frame (you can't do anything, all you need to do is following their instruction). Let's be real, at least the casino not disappear with the user fund.
Other things want to mention, which idiot who are storing funds in some casino? casino is not exchange/wallet (most people should deposit and withdraw) immediately after they finish the section gambling. These case only can be face, for some guy who are storing their money in casino.

Storing money in casino should be a crime, and people who do these need to go jail

[Oshosondy]

What I will always have in mind is to follow the ToS of the gambling site. If I can still gamble on the site, I will try to bet to make my money be up to minimum withdrawal if it is not up to that.

I do not leave money on casinos. I withdraw it if I am not using the casino for awhile. I do not think I will have any problem with a gambling site that announces that they will shut down.

People that do not withdraw before the deadline may lost their money. That is how I always think of it.

[wheelz1200]

I have to think any of the US regulated ones would have to follow standard laws under US guidelines but most of them are in offshore mostly unregulated areas.  So I would think in those cases the money just "disappears".  Good faith on them to offer a deadline at all I guess.  Because in reality they could just vanish and then what's the reprocussions?

[alani123]

If a casino goes under and they are operating under a non-offshore jurisdiction then of course it will have to go through bankruptcy court and adjudicated by expect accountants. But most casinos are just operating under Curacao sub licenses. Can you imagine a casino voluntarily submitting it's assets to a Curacao court? It will never happen.

If a casino with a shred of decency goes under they would try to compensate deposits as much as possible, but this rarely happens when a casino has financial issues. Instead they might just not pay the big deposits and after a while completely close down the operstion.

[Sunderland]

With luckybit, it was a shady exit. What’s crazy is the casino closure was announced on Jan 19th & users had until just Jan 31st to withdraw balances (even worse some balances were ineligible for withdraw , such as a .001btc balance and below ..and apparently even if you tried to make a deposit to top off your balance to qualify for a full withdrawal, it was seemingly not allowed).

As one of the regulars who were active on LuckyBit from the end of 2013 to 2021, I can confirm that the platform closed their service because the owners were very busy with their real life job, also one of the founders was even very well known in the XMR community and became Monero core Dev.
At that time/2021 there weren't many players actively playing on LB because there were only 2 games Plinko and Dice (original), from a business perspective it would certainly not be good for them.
So if you say it was a shady exit - I totally disagree.

Regarding withdrawal issues, the price of BTC at that time was $30k ish and transaction fees between $17 to $25, so that's one of the reasons why there was a minimum withdrawal of 0.002 BTC.
If players (perhaps only less than 5 players affected by this) were allowed to make deposits, it would actually be in vain because the fees were quite expensive at that time, for example:
Player A has 0.001 BTC, if he wants to withdraw 0.002 BTC then he has to deposit 0.001 BTC + fees around 0.0007 BTC = that is very ineffective.

[Rruchi man]

So what happens today if your Casino announces a closure? Do some casinos have some sort of “deposit offloading” where funds can sit and wait to be redeemed for an extended period of time? Are there any current “standard practices” to abide by?  

There are no standard practices that I am aware of, but the method that a casino chooses to apply if they are undergoing closure depends on the management of the casino. With good management that has the intention of really allowing gamblers to claim their deposits and account balances regardless of the price, to make the purchase easy and swift for gamblers without restrictions, but with bad management where the casino management has plans to siphon some deposits left in the accounts of some gamblers, then they will make the process of claiming balances and deposits more difficult than usual to frustrate gamblers from being able to claim their money.

[ralle14]

Other things want to mention, which idiot who are storing funds in some casino? casino is not exchange/wallet (most people should deposit and withdraw) immediately after they finish the section gambling. These case only can be face, for some guy who are storing their money in casino.

Storing money in casino should be a crime, and people who do these need to go jail

There are a bunch of situations where gamblers can easily forget their gambling money for quite a while and let it sit in their account. In my case, I had a bunch of winnings together with my deposit sitting around in my account back then for a few weeks because of my luck from winning a promotion or raffle. People can quickly become busy so we can't blame them if they still have money sitting at their gambling accounts.

If I can still gamble on the site, I will try to bet to make my money be up to minimum withdrawal if it is not up to that.

This is what i'd also do if the minimum is not that high or i'll send a small deposit to reach the minimum and then clear the deposit rollover.

[ryzaadit]

-snip-

As a gambler, I responded with the gambler's behavior.

No, and there's no way gamblers do these. The reason is quite simple, gambler transactions is always want to win big with faster transaction deposits and withdraw. If these are regarding exchange, I can buy the story the reason quite simple (people leave the money because they hold the asset for waiting profit). Meanwhile gambler, I can bet not even 24 hour or more short time (1 hour) that money will be lost/already being transferred to your personal wallet/exchanged to being spended.
Most of gamblers it's degenerate, unless the money they are on (casino) has wagering requirement (that's still can believe) but for raw money.... There's no way people who are gambling leaving the money without any reason. Cause, I know even my self as gambler my transaction is always fast with deposit-withdraw (for what ? to avoiding losing all of the money off course). Leaving money in casino, it's just like leaving the money with gasoline waiting to be burn (losing all by gambling after we got win) that's why we want faster transaction deposit & withdraw.

[Wexnident]

~

Isn't that just based on the casinos themselves? Especially in the cases of Curacao license holders where it's REALLY lax. Standard practice I'd say would usually be give users a month to withdraw all their funds, as is in general any service that is used by people, unless the closure was asked to be immediate by a governing body like the, well, government. In Luckybit's case I'd say it is rather weird since it's not like it was due to bankruptcy or something illegal, they just stopped. Might be a case of the providers they were buying off from expiring by the 31st, but still, could've given a bit more time if possible.

[Darker45]

Unlike trade, war, human rights, and others, I doubt there are international laws on gambling. And it's understandable considering how gambling is actually trivial as far as humanity or human existence is concerned. In which case, there is probably no global standard as to the timeframe that a closing casino should provide to its users in withdrawing funds.

But, of course, casino users are protected by local regulations. The question, however, is whether these legal protections provided by the law are implemented. Surely, Curacao, from which the great majority of crypto casinos are getting their licenses, isn't that strict in seeing to it that casino users are sufficiently protected.

[retreat]

Supposedly if it is registered in an area that has gambling regulations there will be a process they have to fulfill when they want to close the service, and usually that cannot be done in just a few weeks, and the platform must fulfill its obligation to return all deposited funds to their users . However, there are some cases where casino platforms unilaterally close their services and users need to withdraw their money immediately or they immediately run away. Because they usually operate abroad and are only registered in gambling regulatory countries that are very often used by online platforms such as Curacao or Malta, and they do not feel that when they escape there will be no authorities who can chase them, since they operate outside country. Therefore, even if a casino platform is registered, it does not guarantee that they will fulfill the various regulations that they are supposed to fulfill.

[yahoo62278]

As sunderland already said, there weren't many active gamblers on the site near the end when the owners decided to shutdown. Giving 2 weeks was plenty for the few to wd what was left on their balance.

I was working with the site at the end managing the mods and nothing felt shady to me or I would have disagreed with the time period they gave. If the platform was super active and had hundreds of players, i'm positive that more time would have been given. I'm sure if someone had a bunch on the site( quite sure noone did) and missed the deadline, they could have gotten in touch with LB support or me and gotten a payment handled. The owners in no way were out to fuck anyone.

[uneng]

I think it depends on where the casino is registered. If it's registered in a territory with strict rules, users of the platform may appeal to the court against the service. But if it's just an online casino operating informally, there isn't much you can do. There isn't an international common law to reach every corners of the world regards this matter.

In this case you mentioned, to give only 2 weeks for customers to cashout their funds, besides not allowing balances below 100K satoshis to be withdrawn was really a bad move from the casino. They should have given at least a month and allowed everyone to cashout their funds, despite how much they held on the platform (deducting withdrawal fees, of course) at that time.

That is why we shouldn't keep our coins deposited at third party sites for too long. Sites come and go all the time in this crypto industry and there aren't any laws to protect our money from being seized or stolen. If you don't want to risk losing anything, just keep your money in a safe wallet.

[Poker Player]

Usually having a Las Vegas license gives more security than having an online license from a tax haven, but it does not free them from going bankrupt either. If a casino, physical or online, goes bankrupt, it is because there comes a time when it cannot meet its obligations and has more debts than income. Then the creditors end up hopefully collecting part of what they are owed. Although it is also possible that another operator buys the bankrupt business and respects the money that the players had in deposits and could not cash out, as it happened with Full Tilt, and its acquisition by Pokerstars, but it took years.

[Eternad]

So what happens today if your Casino announces a closure? Do some casinos have some sort of “deposit offloading” where funds can sit and wait to be redeemed for an extended period of time? Are there any current “standard practices” to abide by?  

This casino deep dive had me thinking all the above out loud and wanted to discuss ..

Casino usually set a deadline for claiming since they will have no staff after the closure to handle the refund anymore once it’s exceed to the deadline.

It’s user responsibility to not leave any funds on a casino wallet because it’s not a savings account. So as long that the casino notified all the players in advance about the deadline of withdrawal then it’s user responsibility to withdraw all their funds on time or else they will need to contact the team the hard way since most of the casino owner disappear completely after the closure.

[Jawhead999]

Yes there are official international casino laws, such as eCOGRA and Gibraltar Gambling License that used in Bet365.

Curacao license is a nothing license, I treat them like a casino without license since there are nothing different.

I have no idea why people leave their funds in the casino, if people forget with their funds, I guess that the amount is low and they don't really care about it.

But, of course, casino users are protected by local regulations. The question, however, is whether these legal protections provided by the law are implemented. Surely, Curacao, from which the great majority of crypto casinos are getting their licenses, isn't that strict in seeing to it that casino users are sufficiently protected.

Casino users aren't really protected by local regulations if the country only allows regulated online casinos which have land based casinos operated in the country.

What's funny if gambling is prohibited in their country, but they get scammed from online casinos, they can't do anything. If they report they're being scammed and they can get the money, they will going to jail for broke the laws.

[un_rank]

With luckybit, it was a shady exit. What’s crazy is the casino closure was announced on Jan 19th & users had until just Jan 31st to withdraw balances

Before we can call it a shady exit, we will need to know what the situation was for those that could not withdraw their funds in the stipulated timeframe. There should be openings for those with their funds left there to be able to reach out and still receive it to their personal wallet. If that was not done and some users were shut out after the time given, it borders on shady, but may not be criminal, meaning they cannot be taken to court for it. Still is enough to give them negative feedback for all it is worth.

...(even worse some balances were ineligible for withdraw , such as a .001btc balance and below ..and apparently even if you tried to make a deposit to top off your balance to qualify for a full withdrawal, it was seemingly not allowed).

0.001BTC today is $68, at the time of this incident it was almost half of that. I know of casinos with higher minimum withdrawal. But if they deliberately did not help out users who could not deposit more to get their remaining funds, that is a very shady act.

Today, there are no strong laws preventing something like this. A casino can dance around what regulations we have and cheat users with no repercussion.

- Jay -

[Coin_trader]

So what happens today if your Casino announces a closure?

Usually they allow user to withdraw funds or else they shouldn’t announce closure and stick to the classic method of just exit scam out of thin air.

Do some casinos have some sort of “deposit offloading” where funds can sit and wait to be redeemed for an extended period of time?

I doubt this is the case for the typical casino with Curacao license. Casino can runaway whenever they want since Curacao doesn’t regulate scam casino. There’s no scam casino being punished until now that has Curacao license for doing exit scam.

Are there any current “standard practices” to abide by?  

Never leave funds to a casino account for a long time.

[bitbollo]

Well, there are no regulations (unless they are registered in some nation). Each casino can just get his rule since there is nothing they would to comply.
Years ago there was another big casino/bookmaker that closed operations = "Direct Bet".
In this case with Direct Bet there was no deposit on their site (since each bet was placed with a new address for the event). However they informed people many weeks before they were closing and giving back what already placed by gamblers.
Meanwhile they decide also to pay referral... doubling the amount
Definitely something never seen with many operators taking advantage of no rules situation/anonimity... this site was closing but not only they not made an exit-scam, they were pretty honest and become something legendary....