$10,000,000 : Strategy or Trap, what do you decide?

[famososMuertos]

The use of additional technology is being very questionable today in many types of online PvP games, even in chess accounts are banned for this use of support technologies, poker is not exempt from this, in fact we have had interesting topics on this board like this:

Can Chat GTP destroy poker on-line gambling???
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5449669.0

But only recently the "excessive" use of such technological tools reached the most important live poker event, in fact it was questioned that he cheated or violated the rules of the tournament, which is very specific that does not allow the use of technological support of any kind while playing a hand of poker.

It was $10,000,000 dollars, so the money at stake was important, the truth of the matter is that the use of these tools was questioned.

Some reference items to place them in the context of what is considered the most important event in the world of betting, and specifically in the world of poker
Event #81: $10,000 MAIN EVENT No-Limit Hold'em World Championship

Jonathan Tamayo wins $10M WSOP after controversial pocket queens decision
https://nypost.com/2024/07/18/sports/jonathan-tamayo-wins-wsop-after-controversial-pocket-queens-decision/


Daniel Negreanu

https://x.com/pokerorg/status/1814691779599388983/photo/1

^{Please keep your comments on the discussion topic, thanks.}

[adultcrypto]

Could this be the reason for the problem some casinos are facing that have lead to unprecedented number of claims and scam accusation that have been raised in various sections of this forum? The casinos have always responded that such users violated their rules without being specific to which of the rules were violated but I have reasons to believe it has to do with this. It could be the use of additional technology. I knew we will get to this point because technology come with its own challenges.

[iv4n]

He opted for the conservative play, though, which may have been influenced by him knowing he could make the final table and an extra $200,000 if he outlasted one more player.

Well, I would say this fold was a good move... it's one of the hard things to do in poker, to fold nice cards just like that, but since he won the tournament that turned out to be a great move. It's hard to imagine what it feels like to sit in that chair just a few steps away from the final table, so I understand the move. I think about what I would do, the stakes are too high and the prizes are huge, I can imagine how many charged emotions there are, but despite everything you have to maintain a "poker face". I feel like I would try these two ladies and maybe that would lead to my all-in, and that would be a huge risk, and who knows... maybe I would miss the final table just for an inch.

I agree with Daniel Negreanu, if the technology is already prohibited in any way it should be prohibited for someone else to use it, and then just let the player know. I'm totally against technology when it comes to poker, people should play as they know how without any aids.

[Adbitco]

Could this be the reason for the problem some casinos are facing that have lead to unprecedented number of claims and scam accusation that have been raised in various sections of this forum? The casinos have always responded that such users violated their rules without being specific to which of the rules were violated but I have reasons to believe it has to do with this. It could be the use of additional technology. I knew we will get to this point because technology come with its own challenges.

Casinos and or gambling site doesn't state their rules which a gambler violate during usage and of course most people especially those who wins demand explanation as to know why and where they broke their rules. Of a truth most player and gambler may not explore additional tools and technology to gamble but if only the site they are using suspected to have noticed any fowl play the automatically the system picked it as an external tools, AI,  any technology that could help to elevate and enhance their winning.

[Davidvictorson]

Could this be the reason for the problem some casinos are facing that have lead to unprecedented number of claims and scam accusation that have been raised in various sections of this forum? The casinos have always responded that such users violated their rules without being specific to which of the rules were violated but I have reasons to believe it has to do with this. It could be the use of additional technology. I knew we will get to this point because technology come with its own challenges.

I wonder what ways that users of casino would use technology to beat the system. In my estimation, I doubt that this is possible. For example as someone who loves to play slots, there is no way that anyone can use any technological tools to beat it once the game has started. For casinos, I think that some of the rules that are most violated are the use of VPNs, having two accounts and some other shady stuffs that is not related to the use of tech. I stand to be corrected on this though.

[Yaunfitda]

For me, players shouldn't be allowed to go to the seat of the fans, simply as that. They should be glued to their seats and only go if they are eliminated or going for a break. And if I'm not mistaken, this is not the first time that a cheating scandal has happened to a poker game.

Maybe I'm just as old school as those poker players and I will go with them that it should not be allowed. So as far as ethics goes, there should be new rules or protocol to be implemented next to avoid this kind of "cheating".

[Apocollapse]

He's trying to find loopholes, for me neither the solvers is owned by him or the fans, it doesn't matter. Who can make sure if Tamayo didn't make secret agreement with the fans? or are they really a fans? they could be Tamayo's friends.

He's not deserved to receive $10 Million, they need to tightening the rules and have security check on every fans in the next year competition to prevent this cheats.

Users agree: it's not a cheating, but it's not good either. Firstly, fans used laptops on the rails at previous years' final tables.

Secondly, communicating with fans is not prohibited. Finding out what hands your opponents had and whether the hand was played correctly is a common practice at final tables.

Thirdly, before the start of each tournament at the WSOP 2024, the following announcement was made:

We do ask you to please do not use any type of poker solvers at any point in time at the table or in the tournament area. If you’re found using one of these poker solvers, there’s a possibility of being disqualified from this tournament.

But Tamayo did not use the solver directly during the hand. That’s why Tamayo's behavior cannot be considered cheating.

[Frankolala]

For me, players shouldn't be allowed to go to the seat of the fans, simply as that. They should be glued to their seats and only go if they are eliminated or going for a break. And if I'm not mistaken, this is not the first time that a cheating scandal has happened to a poker game.

Maybe I'm just as old school as those poker players and I will go with them that it should not be allowed. So as far as ethics goes, there should be new rules or protocol to be implemented next to avoid this kind of "cheating".

Yea, maybe that will help eliminate the use of technology tools when playing live hand poker game like this because if the player sits without leaving his seat and finishes his game or round, it is possible that will lower the rate of cheating.

If they are on break, the players should be guided and escorted by securities into their own separate place where they can do whatever they want during the break period so that there will be no contact with the fans till they are eliminated.

[Jating]

Could this be the reason for the problem some casinos are facing that have lead to unprecedented number of claims and scam accusation that have been raised in various sections of this forum? The casinos have always responded that such users violated their rules without being specific to which of the rules were violated but I have reasons to believe it has to do with this. It could be the use of additional technology. I knew we will get to this point because technology come with its own challenges.

I wonder what ways that users of casino would use technology to beat the system. In my estimation, I doubt that this is possible. For example as someone who loves to play slots, there is no way that anyone can use any technological tools to beat it once the game has started. For casinos, I think that some of the rules that are most violated are the use of VPNs, having two accounts and some other shady stuffs that is not related to the use of tech. I stand to be corrected on this though.

I don't think that there will be softwares that can beat the slot machine games online, perhaps in the early days there could be loophole that gamblers take advantage. But casinos are learning and so is there operators. So they know everything, the possible exploits and that they can close it before someone found it.

But this case is totally different, Tamayo had 2 other accomplishes in the background that help him make the right decision or at least feeding him numbers like what is the percentage of him winning. And then Tamayo the gambler that he is, take this numbers to his advantage and play the game. For now it could be borderline cheating, but if you have the aid of someone, then it should be cheating already.

[Findingnemo]

Let me get this straight, he is\was questioned nothing yet proved, right?

Usage of any tools should be made illegal and anyone found using of such tools should be eliminated and their bets should be voided with no refund of betting amount and the sole purpose of this move is to discourage users from involving any such activities. On the other hand it is not really possible to stop the technical evolution so casinos should upgrade their security measures to make it foolproof.

[famososMuertos]

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Well, the thing about the QQ was talked about a lot, but imo it is quite normal to folding due to an ICM issue, but he was making very precise moves with equity in his favor, if you understand.

Then the hand that defines the winner of the 10 million, that was the payment to the first place, he made a move with 83, which is not rare  at game HupH, but the pre-flop call and RR on the flop, it could only be made with intrinsic information related to his opponent.(*)

Then his friends in the public, have a very popular page/Software that simulates scenarios, giving you the best spots to play, in (*)conclusion, this help him in pressing situations.

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I don't think that there will be softwares that can beat the slot machine games online, perhaps in the early days there could be loophole that gamblers take advantage. But casinos are learning and so is there operators. So they know everything, the possible exploits and that they can close it before someone found it.

But this case is totally different, Tamayo had 2 other accomplishes in the background that help him make the right decision or at least feeding him numbers like what is the percentage of him winning. And then Tamayo the gambler that he is, take this numbers to his advantage and play the game. For now it could be borderline cheating, but if you have the aid of someone, then it should be cheating already.

Well, in fact it is written like that in the rules, and not only that, every time a level started they reminded the players of that.

Let us remember that this particular event brought together more than 10,000 players, it is the most important event in the world of poker.

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Basically the topic has nothing to do with Slots, or traditional Casino games, so, it is not the idea that the discussion is oriented to that, or I'd rather say O-T. Thanksx

[danherbias07]

Question. Why is folding a pair of queens a big issue for them if they are letting solvers? What if he also felt that he would lose on that number? I know it's a strong pair, but those are decisions that can be made if instincts tell you to do so. Then, he had his coaches Joe and Dom who seemed to be better poker players than Tamayo.

If they want it clean, then go back to old-school poker games where players are like chess players trying to dry their brains hard to think of their own strategy and not ask for someone else about their percentage of winning. They are letting him go to his coaches while in play and yet they will say it is cheating in the end. They could've stopped him before he even reached them.

They must be clear with their rules, they let them do it so I don't think he is at fault here. Whatever application those coaches are using, I don't think Tamayo knows about it as he is just following what they say.

[iv4n]

Question. Why is folding a pair of queens a big issue for them if they are letting solvers?

He just explained that in the comment above yours, and it makes sense, but also sounds like a conspiracy theory.

::///:::

Well, the thing about the QQ was talked about a lot, but imo it is quite normal to folding due to an ICM issue, but he was making very precise moves with equity in his favor, if you understand.

Then the hand that defines the winner of the 10 million, that was the payment to the first place, he made a move with 83, which is not rare  at game HupH, but the pre-flop call and RR on the flop, it could only be made with intrinsic information related to his opponent.(*)

Then his friends in the public, have a very popular page/Software that simulates scenarios, giving you the best spots to play, in (*)conclusion, this help him in pressing situations.

Well, I didn't watch the tournament and I don't have any information about what happened there, so I can't agree with you, but I can't say you are wrong about all this either. It sounds like a conspiracy theory because it's poker and it's hard to prove some things, we all know that. When commenting, I took into account one hand, you have seen more of them and the matter seems clearer to you than to me. But apart from your feeling (which I partially agree with if he played like that and has friends in the audience) did anything official happen about this? Has his victory and payment of the award been questioned at an official level? A quick search didn't show much about that...

[GxSTxV]

Well, nobody can actually know what’s behind the scenes that’s why simply we can’t judge anyone for using tools in this big tournament or not, maybe there are others that have used tools in this even, but still lost in the very first moments. It won’t really matter now if they couldn’t figure it out and the prize went alright to the winner.
What matters more is how to avoid and detect any manipulation, tools and AI at such events and games in the future, there will be no more fun if AI is used in the future, this will really destroy many table games, most casino will withdraw these games from their list.

Could this be the reason for the problem some casinos are facing that have lead to unprecedented number of claims and scam accusation that have been raised in various sections of this forum? The casinos have always responded that such users violated their rules without being specific to which of the rules were violated but I have reasons to believe it has to do with this. It could be the use of additional technology. I knew we will get to this point because technology come with its own challenges.

Yes unfortunately technology is getting ahead of such games or casinos, I can’t confirm this but probably many casinos now are facing losses without knowing or ability of detecting that, until players asks about huge amount to withdraw, they start restricting them from that.

[tread93]

The use of additional technology is being very questionable today in many types of online PvP games, even in chess accounts are banned for this use of support technologies, poker is not exempt from this, in fact we have had interesting topics on this board like this:

Can Chat GTP destroy poker on-line gambling???
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5449669.0

But only recently the "excessive" use of such technological tools reached the most important live poker event, in fact it was questioned that he cheated or violated the rules of the tournament, which is very specific that does not allow the use of technological support of any kind while playing a hand of poker.

It was $10,000,000 dollars, so the money at stake was important, the truth of the matter is that the use of these tools was questioned.

Some reference items to place them in the context of what is considered the most important event in the world of betting, and specifically in the world of poker
Event #81: $10,000 MAIN EVENT No-Limit Hold'em World Championship

Jonathan Tamayo wins $10M WSOP after controversial pocket queens decision
https://nypost.com/2024/07/18/sports/jonathan-tamayo-wins-wsop-after-controversial-pocket-queens-decision/


Daniel Negreanu

https://x.com/pokerorg/status/1814691779599388983/photo/1

^{Please keep your comments on the discussion topic, thanks.}

Anything that can help you in a real match or give you an advantage should obviously be banned as it is not something that should ever happen and really is like a form of cheating .These are some big players and lots on the line there is some skill and strategy involved it’s not all chance!

[AmoreJaz]

Well, nobody can actually know what’s behind the scenes that’s why simply we can’t judge anyone for using tools in this big tournament or not, maybe there are others that have used tools in this even, but still lost in the very first moments. It won’t really matter now if they couldn’t figure it out and the prize went alright to the winner.
What matters more is how to avoid and detect any manipulation, tools and AI at such events and games in the future, there will be no more fun if AI is used in the future, this will really destroy many table games, most casino will withdraw these games from their list.

Could this be the reason for the problem some casinos are facing that have lead to unprecedented number of claims and scam accusation that have been raised in various sections of this forum? The casinos have always responded that such users violated their rules without being specific to which of the rules were violated but I have reasons to believe it has to do with this. It could be the use of additional technology. I knew we will get to this point because technology come with its own challenges.

Yes unfortunately technology is getting ahead of such games or casinos, I can’t confirm this but probably many casinos now are facing losses without knowing or ability of detecting that, until players asks about huge amount to withdraw, they start restricting them from that.

This is the very reason why if you are the owner of casino, you should invest also in security features of your business. Upgrade your security as much as possible, learn the new tools used by hackers and all. Know how to counter attack them. Because hacking tools are getting sophisticated everyday.

Also, this is the benefit of running bug bounty program on a regular basis. This is to check where your system is. It can be vulnerable already to the current technology or software apps used by hackers. It may be a dent to the budget of your business but it is better to secure your site rather than regret when fraudsters already siphoned your vaults.