For those of you who say governments can't ban bitcoin

[S4VV4S]

I truly hate repeating my self, but I will say this one more time.

NO COUNTRY WILL EVER SUCCESSFULLY BAN BITCOIN!!!!!

Black Markets will emerge - much like Silk Road but not necessarily for drugs and guns and shit.

The only thing a gov can do is TAX it, nothing else.

If they try to ban it, they will lose money from taxable goods.
It's as simple as that!

Bitcoin is a revolution and they know this.
That is why they are fighting it with stupid laws and false media FUD.

 

[amspir]

The only thing a gov can do is TAX it, nothing else.

I came across this will reading about the history of currency:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Notes_Tax_Act_1910

Essentially, in 1910, the Austrian government put a 10% tax on the creation of bank notes that were not the official Austrian banknotes.

I'm wondering if any attempt has been made in Austria to apply this to bitcoin.

[smoothie]

I say goodluck to any government who thinks it is easy to seize a Bitcoin wallet. Maybe people should start using brainwallets so that they can always access their funds even if a government thinks they "seized" the wallet. You still can't kill it, there will still be people who use it, it will just be pushed underground. Even if a government will punish someone by death if they use i, there will still be people who use it, just as there are people who will kill others even though it can be a offense punishable by death in many places.

Again, this applies to legitimate business, and people who don't want problems with the law, which are the majority.

Obviously criminals don't give a shit about following regulations.

What I'm saying is, the government can easily block it from becoming mainstream. Some people here have this idea that bitcoin can compete with the central banking system. The reality of it is, the major governments of the world won't let that happen.

Free-markets are stronger than Governments.

 

[S4VV4S]

I say goodluck to any government who thinks it is easy to seize a Bitcoin wallet. Maybe people should start using brainwallets so that they can always access their funds even if a government thinks they "seized" the wallet. You still can't kill it, there will still be people who use it, it will just be pushed underground. Even if a government will punish someone by death if they use i, there will still be people who use it, just as there are people who will kill others even though it can be a offense punishable by death in many places.

Again, this applies to legitimate business, and people who don't want problems with the law, which are the majority.

Obviously criminals don't give a shit about following regulations.

What I'm saying is, the government can easily block it from becoming mainstream. Some people here have this idea that bitcoin can compete with the central banking system. The reality of it is, the major governments of the world won't let that happen.

Free-markets are stronger than Governments.

 

^^^ True story!

[skooter]

I say goodluck to any government who thinks it is easy to seize a Bitcoin wallet. Maybe people should start using brainwallets so that they can always access their funds even if a government thinks they "seized" the wallet. You still can't kill it, there will still be people who use it, it will just be pushed underground. Even if a government will punish someone by death if they use i, there will still be people who use it, just as there are people who will kill others even though it can be a offense punishable by death in many places.

Again, this applies to legitimate business, and people who don't want problems with the law, which are the majority.

Obviously criminals don't give a shit about following regulations.

What I'm saying is, the government can easily block it from becoming mainstream. Some people here have this idea that bitcoin can compete with the central banking system. The reality of it is, the major governments of the world won't let that happen.

Free-markets are stronger than Governments.

 

Wait, we have a free market? since when?

[RodeoX]

Hey guys, maybe he's right? The government banned drugs. Now no one does drugs anymore.

[S4VV4S]

I say goodluck to any government who thinks it is easy to seize a Bitcoin wallet. Maybe people should start using brainwallets so that they can always access their funds even if a government thinks they "seized" the wallet. You still can't kill it, there will still be people who use it, it will just be pushed underground. Even if a government will punish someone by death if they use i, there will still be people who use it, just as there are people who will kill others even though it can be a offense punishable by death in many places.

Again, this applies to legitimate business, and people who don't want problems with the law, which are the majority.

Obviously criminals don't give a shit about following regulations.

What I'm saying is, the government can easily block it from becoming mainstream. Some people here have this idea that bitcoin can compete with the central banking system. The reality of it is, the major governments of the world won't let that happen.

Free-markets are stronger than Governments.

 

Wait, we have a free market? since when?

Since Bitcoin stepped in the scene

[skooter]

I say goodluck to any government who thinks it is easy to seize a Bitcoin wallet. Maybe people should start using brainwallets so that they can always access their funds even if a government thinks they "seized" the wallet. You still can't kill it, there will still be people who use it, it will just be pushed underground. Even if a government will punish someone by death if they use i, there will still be people who use it, just as there are people who will kill others even though it can be a offense punishable by death in many places.

Again, this applies to legitimate business, and people who don't want problems with the law, which are the majority.

Obviously criminals don't give a shit about following regulations.

What I'm saying is, the government can easily block it from becoming mainstream. Some people here have this idea that bitcoin can compete with the central banking system. The reality of it is, the major governments of the world won't let that happen.

Free-markets are stronger than Governments.

 

Wait, we have a free market? since when?

Since Bitcoin stepped in the scene

Keep telling yourself that.

All the big retailers have to follow government regulations regardless of how they take payment.

[marcus_of_augustus]

...
Look at what happened with online poker a decade ago. Government got involved, seized bank accounts, forbid banks from doing business with online gambling sites, etc etc.

They didn't have to go after individuals to cripple something, they go after the big institutions.

So for bitcoin, if they want individuals to comply with laws, they could set up an agency where you have to register your bitcoin addresses with (and possibly give them access to freeze/seize your funds if they deem necessary). If you don't have a valid registration with that agency, banks will not allow you to do any transactions related to bitcoin (eg, wire transfer to an exchange). The government would use the banking system to enforce their laws.

That would probably make both governments and banks both unpopular and unsuccessful.
Big institutions are a no-no in the bitcoin sphere. Something a lot of people doesn't seem to get.

The US Govt and the US banking system is incredibly unpopular. Look at the crappy congress approval ratings, and how many people are angry about what wall street and the big banks did. But they're very successful. The US Govt is still in power, and the US Banking system still has control over the economy.

Big institutions are already in the bitcoin sphere. What do you call CEX.io who has 1/4 of the network hash power? What do you call bitstamp and the other big exchanges that handle the bulk of trading volume? They have huge influence over the bitcoin economy.

If black/red-listing (aka, tainting) can be arranged in a way which is even a little bit credible, I believe that it would open the door for such registration.  This because large institutions (Google/Facebook, Overstock/TigerDirect, etc) can be forced to honor it and it will rapidly create fungibility problems for everybody.  And also, of course, that forced registration would in and of itself change the nature of Bitcoin beyond recognition.

That's not what I was getting at though. Forcing people to register/provide access to their wallets to a govt agency makes it possible for the govt to seize your coins.

You make it sound like USA has a Police State problem.

[Cryddit]

While it is true that bitcoin cannot be effectively totally banned, the facts are that if it is legislated against in any way that makes it not worth the time and effort of most of the population, it will become effectively valueless to the remainder because there will be no network effects.

IOW, if you can't use a Bitcoin to buy anything from a "legit" vendor, then the network effects will be such that it's worth under a buck to everyone else.  A tiny corner of the financial world, indeed.

[S4VV4S]

While it is true that bitcoin cannot be effectively totally banned, the facts are that if it is legislated against in any way that makes it not worth the time and effort of most of the population, it will become effectively valueless to the remainder because there will be no network effects.

IOW, if you can't use a Bitcoin to buy anything from a "legit" vendor, then the network effects will be such that it's worth under a buck to everyone else.  A tiny corner of the financial world, indeed.

I strongly disagree.

Let's say I have a business that sells product A.
And just like me there are many other businesses but they have more money to invest in PR, etc.

Now I do not want to go bankrupt just because my gov said "Bitcoin is illegal".

And if my product is welcomed to Bitcoiners then Tor is the way to go about it.
I do not go bankrupt and guess what?....
I don't even have to declare TAX!

Like I said, black markets will emerge and that is NOT what the governments want.
That's why they are trying to find a way to regulate BTC, which will not happen IMO.

[skooter]

While it is true that bitcoin cannot be effectively totally banned, the facts are that if it is legislated against in any way that makes it not worth the time and effort of most of the population, it will become effectively valueless to the remainder because there will be no network effects.

IOW, if you can't use a Bitcoin to buy anything from a "legit" vendor, then the network effects will be such that it's worth under a buck to everyone else.  A tiny corner of the financial world, indeed.

I strongly disagree.

Let's say I have a business that sells product A.
And just like me there are many other businesses but they have more money to invest in PR, etc.

Now I do not want to go bankrupt just because my gov said "Bitcoin is illegal".

And if my product is welcomed to Bitcoiners then Tor is the way to go about it.
I do not go bankrupt and guess what?....
I don't even have to declare TAX!

Like I said, black markets will emerge and that is NOT what the governments want.
That's why they are trying to find a way to regulate BTC, which will not happen IMO.

All right, so you're no different then a drug dealer at that point.

Most legitimate businesses don't want to go that route.

[Bit_Happy]

It was also very scammy. They were basically selling people gold/silver bullion at a HUGE markup with deceptive marketing. IMO, good riddance. If someone tried to pay me with a liberty dollar I'd call the cops on them. Basically every "liberty dollar" would be backed by like 50 cents worth of gold. Total scam.

Bullshit. Every Liberty Dollar that I've seen was redeemable on demand for a set weight of silver bullion - just as the original US Dollar was redeemable for a set weight of gold or silver.

I have one such $20 silver certificate on my desk right now. Up until the feds came in and (illegally, in my mind) confiscated all their precious metals holdings, one could go to their Shelter System Warehouse in Coeur d'Alene, ID, and exchange this $20 Silver Certificate for one ounce of .999 fine silver.

The Lib$ markup was very high.
They were backed by real metals in a warehouse.

[S4VV4S]

While it is true that bitcoin cannot be effectively totally banned, the facts are that if it is legislated against in any way that makes it not worth the time and effort of most of the population, it will become effectively valueless to the remainder because there will be no network effects.

IOW, if you can't use a Bitcoin to buy anything from a "legit" vendor, then the network effects will be such that it's worth under a buck to everyone else.  A tiny corner of the financial world, indeed.

I strongly disagree.

Let's say I have a business that sells product A.
And just like me there are many other businesses but they have more money to invest in PR, etc.

Now I do not want to go bankrupt just because my gov said "Bitcoin is illegal".

And if my product is welcomed to Bitcoiners then Tor is the way to go about it.
I do not go bankrupt and guess what?....
I don't even have to declare TAX!

Like I said, black markets will emerge and that is NOT what the governments want.
That's why they are trying to find a way to regulate BTC, which will not happen IMO.

All right, so you're no different then a drug dealer at that point.

Most legitimate businesses don't want to go that route.

Legitimate?

What is legitimate about raising a war on another country in order to get their oil?

What is legitimate about the way your gov and the banks fuck you right over day after day?

Seriously, don't talk about legitimacy.

You are an idiot.

EDIT: Don't call me a drug dealer. Idiot.
Do a search on my previous posts and you will find out that you are way far from the truth.
Once again, IDIOT!

[amspir]

The Lib$ markup was very high.
They were backed by real metals in a warehouse.

I get it why some would be nostalgic for the pre-1933 system of money being backed by precious metals, but such a system has a centralized point of failure.  In the case of Liberty Dollars, it was a warehouse that could be seized by the government, and with pre-1933 USD, it was Fort Knox, which suffered the same fate.

[jbreher]

It was also very scammy. They were basically selling people gold/silver bullion at a HUGE markup with deceptive marketing. IMO, good riddance. If someone tried to pay me with a liberty dollar I'd call the cops on them. Basically every "liberty dollar" would be backed by like 50 cents worth of gold. Total scam.

Bullshit. Every Liberty Dollar that I've seen was redeemable on demand for a set weight of silver bullion - just as the original US Dollar was redeemable for a set weight of gold or silver.

I have one such $20 silver certificate on my desk right now. Up until the feds came in and (illegally, in my mind) confiscated all their precious metals holdings, one could go to their Shelter System Warehouse in Coeur d'Alene, ID, and exchange this $20 Silver Certificate for one ounce of .999 fine silver.

Reread what I said.

At the time silver was like $10 - $15 / oz, so they charged a massive markup.

That IMO is a scam. I never said they didn't honor redemptions. I said they charged a huge markup on their product and marketed it in a way to deceive stupid people.

You wrote HUGE markup, it was by your later admission, 50% to 100%. Standard retailer markup. Further, they honored their redemption terms when spot climbed above face value.

You also claimed their marketing was deceptive. I again call bullshit. The terms are clearly printed right on the note.

[skooter]

While it is true that bitcoin cannot be effectively totally banned, the facts are that if it is legislated against in any way that makes it not worth the time and effort of most of the population, it will become effectively valueless to the remainder because there will be no network effects.

IOW, if you can't use a Bitcoin to buy anything from a "legit" vendor, then the network effects will be such that it's worth under a buck to everyone else.  A tiny corner of the financial world, indeed.

I strongly disagree.

Let's say I have a business that sells product A.
And just like me there are many other businesses but they have more money to invest in PR, etc.

Now I do not want to go bankrupt just because my gov said "Bitcoin is illegal".

And if my product is welcomed to Bitcoiners then Tor is the way to go about it.
I do not go bankrupt and guess what?....
I don't even have to declare TAX!

Like I said, black markets will emerge and that is NOT what the governments want.
That's why they are trying to find a way to regulate BTC, which will not happen IMO.

All right, so you're no different then a drug dealer at that point.

Most legitimate businesses don't want to go that route.

Legitimate?

What is legitimate about raising a war on another country in order to get their oil?

What is legitimate about the way your gov and the banks fuck you right over day after day?

Seriously, don't talk about legitimacy.

You are an idiot.

EDIT: Don't call me a drug dealer. Idiot.
Do a search on my previous posts and you will find out that you are way far from the truth.
Once again, IDIOT!

Guess what. The government gets to decide what's legitimate and what's not. Because they have power. They can throw your ass in jail for breaking the laws they made up.

You can say that isn't fair or isn't right, but that's how the world works.

I live in the real world, not some fantasy of what the world should be like.

It was also very scammy. They were basically selling people gold/silver bullion at a HUGE markup with deceptive marketing. IMO, good riddance. If someone tried to pay me with a liberty dollar I'd call the cops on them. Basically every "liberty dollar" would be backed by like 50 cents worth of gold. Total scam.

Bullshit. Every Liberty Dollar that I've seen was redeemable on demand for a set weight of silver bullion - just as the original US Dollar was redeemable for a set weight of gold or silver.

I have one such $20 silver certificate on my desk right now. Up until the feds came in and (illegally, in my mind) confiscated all their precious metals holdings, one could go to their Shelter System Warehouse in Coeur d'Alene, ID, and exchange this $20 Silver Certificate for one ounce of .999 fine silver.

Reread what I said.

At the time silver was like $10 - $15 / oz, so they charged a massive markup.

That IMO is a scam. I never said they didn't honor redemptions. I said they charged a huge markup on their product and marketed it in a way to deceive stupid people.

You wrote HUGE markup, it was by your later admission, 50% to 100%. Standard retailer markup. Further, they honored their redemption terms when spot climbed above face value.

You also claimed their marketing was deceptive. I again call bullshit. The terms are clearly printed right on the note.

50 - 100% markup for buying gold/silver coins is HUGE markup. And again, their website advertised their product exactly how those "how to make money fast" type websites advertise it. The fake "limited time offer" who's expiration date moves back by 1 day every day.

So, good riddance.

[cambda]

While it is true that bitcoin cannot be effectively totally banned, the facts are that if it is legislated against in any way that makes it not worth the time and effort of most of the population, it will become effectively valueless to the remainder because there will be no network effects.

IOW, if you can't use a Bitcoin to buy anything from a "legit" vendor, then the network effects will be such that it's worth under a buck to everyone else.  A tiny corner of the financial world, indeed.

I strongly disagree.

Let's say I have a business that sells product A.
And just like me there are many other businesses but they have more money to invest in PR, etc.

Now I do not want to go bankrupt just because my gov said "Bitcoin is illegal".

And if my product is welcomed to Bitcoiners then Tor is the way to go about it.
I do not go bankrupt and guess what?....
I don't even have to declare TAX!

Like I said, black markets will emerge and that is NOT what the governments want.
That's why they are trying to find a way to regulate BTC, which will not happen IMO.

All right, so you're no different then a drug dealer at that point.

Most legitimate businesses don't want to go that route.

Nope, he is right, Bitcoin is global payment method and we dont have here one country/government. Thats why you cannot regulate Bitcoin globally

[skooter]

While it is true that bitcoin cannot be effectively totally banned, the facts are that if it is legislated against in any way that makes it not worth the time and effort of most of the population, it will become effectively valueless to the remainder because there will be no network effects.

IOW, if you can't use a Bitcoin to buy anything from a "legit" vendor, then the network effects will be such that it's worth under a buck to everyone else.  A tiny corner of the financial world, indeed.

I strongly disagree.

Let's say I have a business that sells product A.
And just like me there are many other businesses but they have more money to invest in PR, etc.

Now I do not want to go bankrupt just because my gov said "Bitcoin is illegal".

And if my product is welcomed to Bitcoiners then Tor is the way to go about it.
I do not go bankrupt and guess what?....
I don't even have to declare TAX!

Like I said, black markets will emerge and that is NOT what the governments want.
That's why they are trying to find a way to regulate BTC, which will not happen IMO.

All right, so you're no different then a drug dealer at that point.

Most legitimate businesses don't want to go that route.

Nope, he is right, Bitcoin is global payment method and we dont have here one country/government. Thats why you cannot regulate Bitcoin globally

Individual countries can regulate it.

If all the first world countries regulate it what the rest of the world does isn't really relevant.

[serenitys]

Guess what. The government gets to decide what's legitimate and what's not. Because they have power. They can throw your ass in jail for breaking the laws they made up.

You can say that isn't fair or isn't right, but that's how the world works.

I live in the real world, not some fantasy of what the world should be like.


Guess what. The government can't regulate the cryptocurrency that was designed by its very code to be unregulated, so no, they don't have the power. They can throw your ass in jail for breaking laws they made up for now because of a mentality such as yours that apparently is too cowardly to do more than live on its knees. It works that way because there WAS no viable way to change it that did not result in corrupt abuse against those who attempted it.

What you are missing is that this currency, bitcoin, is the one single thing ever invented that exists here and now that IS the viable way to change it.

There will always be cowards in the world but not everyone accepts that paradigm. The rest of us see how embracing bitcoin or any cryptocurrency of its kind (if not all of them, making it even stronger), pulls the rug out from under corrupt enforcers regardless of their laws.

It's called government by consent of the governed.

Consent is voluntary.

At the end of the day, government is not an all powerful entity. It's a network of smaller agencies and units made up of individuals with any number of tasks to perform and at the end of the day, they only do that for a paycheck. They are ALL just people in uniforms doing a job, getting paid, and returning to consumerism same as you, me, us and them. They are not all powerful oz. They're people with jobs who have given themselves roles and titles and threaten other people with brute force to comply or be injured, or they lie, con, deceive and control as a threat to those who are weak minded cowards who won't do shit but bend over....and consent to be governed. Just men telling other men what to do and nobody's stopping them so it becomes a way of life. Servitude, slavery, cowardice.



The second people wise up to this and see through the big ugly threat is the moment the threat goes away. Doesn't mean they'll just stop, it means they will go on the defense.

Using any currency is voluntary.

Embracing a currency that protects you 100% shifts the power of money back to the PEOPLE who then have the wealth and power to not BE governed by psychopaths (unless they're just useless). It gives the PEOPLE back real leverage to refuse corruption as each individual in that agency still has to make a choice.

The PEOPLE who work in government, politics, and even banks are not morons. They clearly see the destruction of the corruption and greed. They see no alternative but to protect it because it's all they know...but if you asked any fiat millionaire whether he'd seriously rather have fiat currency or a guaranteed secure protected wealth and store of value, he's opting for Door #2.

The reason they haven't is because there was no option.

Now there is. And it's gaining traction. And corporations ARE accepting it, and it's becoming more social...it's not a small fad. It's a shift in wealth and value...and anyone who is fucking sane and intelligent sees the security and value - which is why bitcoin is holding solid as the alternative that DISRUPTS the chokehold government/political/banking policy and regulation has over individual finances.

Before the government as a whole agency could even understand the potential disruptive elements of bitcoin in order to then argue for years over some sort of "policy" about bitcoin, and then bicker between election cycles as to whether to pass legislation or not, it will have long since become a way of life for most of the planet - coexisting rather peacefully at first but rooted in so that any moment the government rule makes a shred of an attempt to stop it, it becomes as simple as exchanging all fiat for crypto -and going full digital...which will tank the dollar and any other fiat...because nobody wants it.

If the agencies cannot pay their enforcers, they won't be putting anyone in jail because at the end of the day, the enforcers are still people with jobs and families who are consumers...and they will say fuck the fiat money - digital IS the way. And since this cannot be regulated from the inside and it can't be controlled from the outside, the disruption to the OLD WAY of bully corruption and people needing some other jackass in a suit to give them permission to spend money or have sex is OVER.

You're on the wrong side of this game...