To the people who only see the downsides of HODLing Bitcoin

[Asiska02]

At the same time, I want to admit that it's good that some people hodl because the majority of bitcoins shouldn't end up in the hands of corporations like BlackRock and in the hands of centralized exchanges like Binance.

In conclusion to your view, HODling should be encouraged and not discouraged. It may have its downsides but we should always look at the positive side of it because that’s where the zeal to hold will always come from. We can’t stop big investors like blackrock and big exchanges from not holding, no hands are equal and they’ll always have the means to buy more and hold more to those coins because of the potential advantage they see in it than many of us don’t see in holding.

Yes this is another reason for HODLing limiting the circulation of these big organization to avoid any form of  centralization or market manipulation

I feel they have already understood the concept and are already one step ahead. They understood the market and knew where it was already heading to, so by that means they’ll want to play as the whale manipulators and also stand at the receiving end of the market goes well and bitcoin increase in value overtime.

[Wind_FURY]

If you earned that Bitcoin in Bitcoin and use it to gamble in your favorite casino, or purchase a collectible in the forum, then that's OK in my opinion. But if you use fiat to buy Bitcoin to use that to spend on "for even the smallest thing", then that's an inefficient use of resources, just spend the fiat in fiat unless you don't have a choice but to use a decentralized, censorship-resistant cryptocurrency - like purchasing something from the Dark Markets.
~
P2P Cash or Store of Value = using is using. It's those people who believe that they're in the right path who are laughable when in fact we don't actually know what the right path is, because we truly don't know what Bitcoin actually is yet.

I've been earning in Bitcoin since 2016 as a freelancer, so I'm actually just skipping the step of using fiat to buy Bitcoin -- unfortunately, because I only earn in Bitcoin, I do have sell the majority of it to pay my bills. But if I could use my Bitcoin to pay for whatever it is I need to pay for, I do. So that means I sell what I need to pay the things I couldn't use Bitcoin for, but yes, I set aside what I can for things I know I eventually need to or actually what I want to.

Food delivery? Groceries? We all need to do that. But instead of selling my coin for fiat, if I can use Bitrefill, or Just Eat (which accepts Bitcoin) -- then yeah, that to me is "even the smallest thing". It's definitely inefficient. My life would be more efficient, easier if I just sold a big chunk and then paid with my 0 fee debit card. But I really like the idea of normalising Bitcoin for spending. Again, not saying everyone should do it, but saying a lot of us are doing it, and I like to think it's this that really is helping Bitcoin prove its case again and again.

But I guess we can agree to go our different ways of using Bitcoin. We do seem to agree that we don't know what the right path is =)

OK, you are on a very different path than many of us. Point understood! But you should also understand our viewpoint, which is we earn fiat and we're looking for an asset that doesn't devalue the fruits of our labor. That's Bitcoin, and that's Gold if you ask me. We are traveling a different road, on a different path. We can't merely spend those Bitcoins for coffee-transactions. For that, we use fiat and we keep our precious Bitcoins.

[ranochigo]

If you earned that Bitcoin in Bitcoin and use it to gamble in your favorite casino, or purchase a collectible in the forum, then that's OK in my opinion. But if you use fiat to buy Bitcoin to use that to spend on "for even the smallest thing", then that's an inefficient use of resources, just spend the fiat in fiat unless you don't have a choice but to use a decentralized, censorship-resistant cryptocurrency - like purchasing something from the Dark Markets.

That completely goes against to what we've been working towards though. Scalability is a key and an important thing that has been emphasized over and over again through the entire lifespan of Bitcoin. The idea for lightning network and Layer 2 scaling has always been to facilitate smaller transactions like these.

P2P Cash or Store of Value = using is using. It's those people who believe that they're in the right path who are laughable when in fact we don't actually know what the right path is, because we truly don't know what Bitcoin actually is yet.

My understanding is that you think Bitcoin will never compete against USD, or any other traditional currency and that we will always be dependent on and using traditional fiat for everything that we do. Otherwise, for people to only spend Bitcoins for high value items also prices out majority of the population. That, also doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[Z-tight]

I know that we should be usin bitcoin for making payments and that's the purpose of bitcoin since inception but it's more of a store of value now.

You can use BTC both for making payments and also storing it for returns, it is great to spend BTC if you have the opportunity to, you may not want to spend it on something expensive, so you can use it for micropayments if tx fees is low at that time. It is also great that BTC has become a popular means of cross-border payments, especially for people who work online, it makes it easy for employers to pay people who work for them over the internet, and also for people to offer their services in return for BTC.

However, whatever one decides to do with their coins is their choice, that is what the network is about, freedom and censorship resistant, but it is also good to remind people of the original reason why BTC was created.

[Wind_FURY]

If you earned that Bitcoin in Bitcoin and use it to gamble in your favorite casino, or purchase a collectible in the forum, then that's OK in my opinion. But if you use fiat to buy Bitcoin to use that to spend on "for even the smallest thing", then that's an inefficient use of resources, just spend the fiat in fiat unless you don't have a choice but to use a decentralized, censorship-resistant cryptocurrency - like purchasing something from the Dark Markets.

That completely goes against to what we've been working towards though. Scalability is a key and an important thing that has been emphasized over and over again through the entire lifespan of Bitcoin. The idea for lightning network and Layer 2 scaling has always been to facilitate smaller transactions like these.

Personally, if I were to use my precious Bitcoins that I bought with my fiat to escape fiat's degrading buying power, then it should take MORE than "for even the smallest thing" to spend it. Bitcoin as designed with censorship-resistance as its main value proposition in mind, Bitcoin is no mere currency for coffee-transactions - ALTHOUGH you could use it for that. Your choice.

P2P Cash or Store of Value = using is using. It's those people who believe that they're in the right path who are laughable when in fact we don't actually know what the right path is, because we truly don't know what Bitcoin actually is yet.

My understanding is that you think Bitcoin will never compete against USD, or any other traditional currency and that we will always be dependent on and using traditional fiat for everything that we do. Otherwise, for people to only spend Bitcoins for high value items also prices out majority of the population. That, also doesn't really make a lot of sense.

In my own view point, it can't compete with fiat as a medium of exchange, but it could build its own parallel economy where everything is denominated in Bitcoin. The Dark Markets, for better or worse, is that parallel economy.

[Bitco55]

' people who only see the downsides of hodling Bitcoin', funny how these people still exist. Bitcoin is an asset, everyone here should know that. Saying hodling Bitcoin' isn't good or profitable is the same as buying land and saying ' keeping it for a period won't be good. Let me just sell it now' We always know how that usually ends up.

No one is saying you should hold it forever, or it'll never be in circulation. At the end of whatever period you decide to keep your assets, you still sell them off for one thing or the other, yeah? The same goes for Bitcoin. If you're not looking for quick cash, but you're looking for a way to store your wealth despite the constant inflation we're facing today, then it's best you hodl.

[betswift]

' people who only see the downsides of hodling Bitcoin', funny how these people still exist. Bitcoin is an asset, everyone here should know that. Saying hodling Bitcoin' isn't good or profitable is the same as buying land and saying ' keeping it for a period won't be good. Let me just sell it now' We always know how that usually ends up.

No one is saying you should hold it forever, or it'll never be in circulation. At the end of whatever period you decide to keep your assets, you still sell them off for one thing or the other, yeah? The same goes for Bitcoin. If you're not looking for quick cash, but you're looking for a way to store your wealth despite the constant inflation we're facing today, then it's best you hodl.

Good advice! I would even call BTC the land with gold mines under it in your example It just takes time to see them.

[pawanjain]

I know that we should be usin bitcoin for making payments and that's the purpose of bitcoin since inception but it's more of a store of value now.

You can use BTC both for making payments and also storing it for returns, it is great to spend BTC if you have the opportunity to, you may not want to spend it on something expensive, so you can use it for micropayments if tx fees is low at that time. It is also great that BTC has become a popular means of cross-border payments, especially for people who work online, it makes it easy for employers to pay people who work for them over the internet, and also for people to offer their services in return for BTC.

However, whatever one decides to do with their coins is their choice, that is what the network is about, freedom and censorship resistant, but it is also good to remind people of the original reason why BTC was created.

Yes ofcourse, that's the beauty of bitcoin. It provides true ownership to everyone by allowing them to do whatever they want with it.
Yet there are some people out there who see only downsides of bitcoin and do not encourage it for what it is.
On the other side, they are not to be blamed because its the paid media and banks that portrays bitcoin as a bad thing and so people have a wrong image about bitcoin.

[ultrloa]

If you earned that Bitcoin in Bitcoin and use it to gamble in your favorite casino, or purchase a collectible in the forum, then that's OK in my opinion. But if you use fiat to buy Bitcoin to use that to spend on "for even the smallest thing", then that's an inefficient use of resources, just spend the fiat in fiat unless you don't have a choice but to use a decentralized, censorship-resistant cryptocurrency - like purchasing something from the Dark Markets.
~
P2P Cash or Store of Value = using is using. It's those people who believe that they're in the right path who are laughable when in fact we don't actually know what the right path is, because we truly don't know what Bitcoin actually is yet.

I've been earning in Bitcoin since 2016 as a freelancer, so I'm actually just skipping the step of using fiat to buy Bitcoin -- unfortunately, because I only earn in Bitcoin, I do have sell the majority of it to pay my bills. But if I could use my Bitcoin to pay for whatever it is I need to pay for, I do. So that means I sell what I need to pay the things I couldn't use Bitcoin for, but yes, I set aside what I can for things I know I eventually need to or actually what I want to.

Food delivery? Groceries? We all need to do that. But instead of selling my coin for fiat, if I can use Bitrefill, or Just Eat (which accepts Bitcoin) -- then yeah, that to me is "even the smallest thing". It's definitely inefficient. My life would be more efficient, easier if I just sold a big chunk and then paid with my 0 fee debit card. But I really like the idea of normalising Bitcoin for spending. Again, not saying everyone should do it, but saying a lot of us are doing it, and I like to think it's this that really is helping Bitcoin prove its case again and again.

But I guess we can agree to go our different ways of using Bitcoin. We do seem to agree that we don't know what the right path is =)

OK, you are on a very different path than many of us. Point understood! But you should also understand our viewpoint, which is we earn fiat and we're looking for an asset that doesn't devalue the fruits of our labor. That's Bitcoin, and that's Gold if you ask me. We are traveling a different road, on a different path. We can't merely spend those Bitcoins for coffee-transactions. For that, we use fiat and we keep our precious Bitcoins.

I maybe guess that the approach of people either they are new or old timer dealing with bitcoin will truly depends on their financial capabilities, also how they want to use their earnings. Since there are people choose to withdraw their gains once it reach to their wallet since they take need to take care first their basic needs. For me its fine as long as they didn't regret their decision to sell and still happy with the outcome of current growth of bitcoin since they enjoy anyways on where they spend their money. Although we can say that people doing that wasting their opportunity to acquire lots of volume when they decide to sell but I guess they know the consequences of their decision done and just want to make sure that they enjoy their money earned from bitcoin.

Its good that I surpass that level where I don't have a choice but to sell my bitcoin because I need to pay bills since as of the moment I'm glad that I have multiple opportunities where I can earn money and have extra funds to buy bitcoin and hold it.

[ranochigo]

Personally, if I were to use my precious Bitcoins that I bought with my fiat to escape fiat's degrading buying power, then it should take MORE than "for even the smallest thing" to spend it. Bitcoin as designed with censorship-resistance as its main value proposition in mind, Bitcoin is no mere currency for coffee-transactions - ALTHOUGH you could use it for that. Your choice.

Bitcoin's whitepaper has very little on censorship-resistance, anonymity etc. It was more focused on facilitating microtransactions in fact, which was why scalability was such a big issue. Development has more or less also proceeded in this direction, increasing utility for microtransactions rather than big transactions. I think we have quite a different viewpoint on what gives Bitcoin it's value; Bitcoin having the potential to be a currency to facilitate transactions alongside fiat in the future, or Bitcoin being valuable because it is overhyped and because it is Bitcoin.

I find it quite a good conversation starter with the others when I pay in Bitcoin. At coffee shops, restaurants, book stores. That's for me personally, but I usually DCA and spend it occasionally. There are definitely still people who don't view Bitcoin as a way to get rich, but as a currency that is meant to be spent.

In my own view point, it can't compete with fiat as a medium of exchange, but it could build its own parallel economy where everything is denominated in Bitcoin. The Dark Markets, for better or worse, is that parallel economy.

I respect that, though I have quite a different perspective of Bitcoin in the future.

[Wakate]

I know that we should be usin bitcoin for making payments and that's the purpose of bitcoin since inception but it's more of a store of value now.

You can use BTC both for making payments and also storing it for returns, it is great to spend BTC if you have the opportunity to, you may not want to spend it on something expensive, so you can use it for micropayments if tx fees is low at that time. It is also great that BTC has become a popular means of cross-border payments, especially for people who work online, it makes it easy for employers to pay people who work for them over the internet, and also for people to offer their services in return for BTC.

However, whatever one decides to do with their coins is their choice, that is what the network is about, freedom and censorship resistant, but it is also good to remind people of the original reason why BTC was created.

Yes ofcourse, that's the beauty of bitcoin. It provides true ownership to everyone by allowing them to do whatever they want with it.
Yet there are some people out there who see only downsides of bitcoin and do not encourage it for what it is.
On the other side, they are not to be blamed because its the paid media and banks that portrays bitcoin as a bad thing and so people have a wrong image about bitcoin.

Almost all holders in the market are just there to make money. We want to make more money that is why we keep investing in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency. Investing in Bitcoin is quite rewarding especially when we know how to go about our ways investing at the right time to make more money. People that have funds are the ones that are making huge amounts of money in the crypto world while those that have less money would have to invest the little they have and wait for the price of Bitcoin to go up well so that they can make something reasonable from the crypto market.

[Tmoonz]

Humans can be very controversial, such that everybody can never have the same view and opinion at every point in time, at the invention of Bitcoin majority thought it was a scam and today they must have been filled with so much regrets for not utilizing such opportunity of owning a Bitcoin asset at it's earliest days simply because of how much increments in value and the wider spread adoption Bitcoin has become off, Bitcoin is still a growing asset class hence am not surprised seeing that there are still those who only sees the downside of holding Bitcoin. Generally, I would say that everybody can never have the same mentality as regards to utilizing and maximizing the potential that Bitcoin holds as best performed when hold for a long term investment for at least 4 to 10 years or more.

[lizarder]

We only need ordinary people like you and me to start using Bitcoin in any way each person would like.

Bitcoin is a movement that attracts "The Cabal" to where the people are. Currently, we now have Black Rock and the largest asset managers having investments in Bitcoin, and Trump and other politicians talking seriously about Bitcoin. Ten years ago suggesting that that would happen would be laughable.

The only thing that can take care of madness is reason and vice versa with people who do not believe in bitcoin. We live in the era of digitalization and any information should be seen openly, but in reality people fail to understand what Bitcoin is especially for those haters. Now we see that many people are starting to believe in Bitcoin and that happens so far to be discussed. I don't care about Trump, politicians or anyone because they speak according to their needs and sometimes their talk cannot be trusted.

But one thing that makes me optimistic that almost most people talk about Bitcoin because they understand their good side and they have seen the advantages that can be accepted by most people of the process born by Bitcoin itself. Bitcoin will be useful when someone intends to enter trade and investment, the rest is Bitcoin is an inanimate object that is not realized without being used properly by anyone.

[buwaytress]

OK, you are on a very different path than many of us. Point understood! But you should also understand our viewpoint, which is we earn fiat and we're looking for an asset that doesn't devalue the fruits of our labor. That's Bitcoin, and that's Gold if you ask me. We are traveling a different road, on a different path. We can't merely spend those Bitcoins for coffee-transactions. For that, we use fiat and we keep our precious Bitcoins.

Amen brother, I appreciate you and everyone who's in Bitcoin, short haul or long. I do understand your viewpoint -- I would be you, if not for the weird but normal fact I happen to earn in Bitcoin. I won't get into gold, but I will say I wish there were more people transacting in (digital) gold 10 years before Bitcoin, and in a more secure way. Carry on doing what you're doing. It cannot ever be bad for Bitcoin =)

[Wind_FURY]

Personally, if I were to use my precious Bitcoins that I bought with my fiat to escape fiat's degrading buying power, then it should take MORE than "for even the smallest thing" to spend it. Bitcoin as designed with censorship-resistance as its main value proposition in mind, Bitcoin is no mere currency for coffee-transactions - ALTHOUGH you could use it for that. Your choice.

Bitcoin's whitepaper has very little on censorship-resistance, anonymity etc. It was more focused on facilitating microtransactions in fact, which was why scalability was such a big issue. Development has more or less also proceeded in this direction, increasing utility for microtransactions rather than big transactions. I think we have quite a different viewpoint on what gives Bitcoin it's value; Bitcoin having the potential to be a currency to facilitate transactions alongside fiat in the future, or Bitcoin being valuable because it is overhyped and because it is Bitcoin.

Are you suggesting that we actually should deny Bitcoin's technical design, what it's capable of achieving, and its power made possible from that technical design because you argue "white paper"?

Pardon me ser, but respectfully, it's a laughable suggestion.

[$weetne$$]

Bitcoin is a movement that attracts "The Cabal" to where the people are. Currently, we now have Black Rock and the largest asset managers having investments in Bitcoin, and Trump and other politicians talking seriously about Bitcoin. Ten years ago suggesting that that would happen would be laughable.

They do not want to miss out that is why they are now coming into Bitcoin. They know the potential profit that they can make and have bad motives of controlling the market that is why they are attracted to Bitcoin but they can not succeed. Trump interest in Bitcoin is only because he wants to be known as the one that made Bitcoin successful, he said it in his speech that if Bitcoin was to be accepted that it should be the Americans leading the industry and I think he is saying this because he sees the way the Asia are leading with Binance exchange which is one of the biggest exchanges coming from an Asia founder. I do not see the downside of hodling Bitcoin but let us not be celebrating this people as they do not have good intentions for Bitcoin but only want power and control.

[Ever-young]

Bitcoin is a movement that attracts "The Cabal" to where the people are. Currently, we now have Black Rock and the largest asset managers having investments in Bitcoin, and Trump and other politicians talking seriously about Bitcoin. Ten years ago suggesting that that would happen would be laughable.

They do not want to miss out that is why they are now coming into Bitcoin. They know the potential profit that they can make and have bad motives of controlling the market that is why they are attracted to Bitcoin but they can not succeed.

I don't think their reason for trying to embrace bitcoin now is because they don't want to miss an account, but it could be because they have tried all that they could to control it, but it all landed to no avail.
 
The only option they are left with is to drag it closer to themselves and see what percentage of the market can be under their own control, which can only be achievable if a large number of holders are making use of a centralised system. If not, all they will still end up doing is watching the market, buying large volumes if they can, but they can't have their hand in controlling even 10% of the market movement.

[betswift]

Bitcoin is a movement that attracts "The Cabal" to where the people are. Currently, we now have Black Rock and the largest asset managers having investments in Bitcoin, and Trump and other politicians talking seriously about Bitcoin. Ten years ago suggesting that that would happen would be laughable.

They do not want to miss out that is why they are now coming into Bitcoin. They know the potential profit that they can make and have bad motives of controlling the market that is why they are attracted to Bitcoin but they can not succeed.

I don't think their reason for trying to embrace bitcoin now is because they don't want to miss an account, but it could be because they have tried all that they could to control it, but it all landed to no avail.
 
The only option they are left with is to drag it closer to themselves and see what percentage of the market can be under their own control, which can only be achievable if a large number of holders are making use of a centralised system. If not, all they will still end up doing is watching the market, buying large volumes if they can, but they can't have their hand in controlling even 10% of the market movement.

They are playing the cards they were given, so to speak

[ranochigo]

Are you suggesting that we actually should deny Bitcoin's technical design, what it's capable of achieving, and its power made possible from that technical design because you argue "white paper"?

Pardon me ser, but respectfully, it's a laughable suggestion.

Well, not at all. Notice how I have never denied any of Bitcoin’s utility but rather used what has been stated in this thread as an opposition to some of the pointers brought up. The impression that I’ve been getting from your posts is that you’re focusing on what ‘Bitcoin’s main value proposition’ is and my response was meant to target exactly that. Contrary to popular belief, Bitcoin’s original intentions and current intentions is to create a currency which can facilitate micro transactions on a peer to peer level. Sure, you can argue that censorship is in the books, but that isn't the design focus. If you’re looking for something that ensures your anonymity and by extension censorship resistant, then the key value proposition of Monero fits better.

Not acknowledging the actual utility of Bitcoin and what us as developers has worked towards seems to focus and distort the perspective of everyone having the HODLING = Good. Expecting a currency to function like a currency for the masses without actively doing so seems to be a direct contradiction the main value proposition of Bitcoin, which is that's right: Facilitating peer to peer transactions. That is laughable.

In fact, HODLING is not intended to encourage people to hold Bitcoins and not actively use it. It was actually to dissuade people from panic selling in the volatile market conditions. That is fairly reasonable and I don’t dispute it. However, the perspective presented in this thread appears to be vastly different. Instead of HODLING, I suggest a better term to be hoarding.

[dzungmobile]

Not acknowledging the actual utility of Bitcoin and what us as developers has worked towards seems to focus and distort the perspective of everyone having the HODLING = Good. Expecting a currency to function like a currency for the masses without actively doing so seems to be a direct contradiction the main value proposition of Bitcoin, which is that's right: Facilitating peer to peer transactions. That is laughable.

In fact, HODLING is not intended to encourage people to hold Bitcoins and not actively use it. It was actually to dissuade people from panic selling in the volatile market conditions. That is fairly reasonable and I don’t dispute it. However, the perspective presented in this thread appears to be vastly different. Instead of HODLING, I suggest a better term to be hoarding.

Utility, use cases are mutually support each other. You have nearly no reasons to HODL bitcoin if it does not have good utility and not many use cases.

Because basically we see that value creates from utility and use cases which not only Bitcoin but also many projects in blockchain and cryptocurrency aim at. They can succeed or fail with this mission to build up utility and use cases for their blockchain and coin or token but without value (lack of utility and use cases), price on market will be reflected properly to match with intrinsic value.

The bullish case for Bitcoin is an insightful and educational book for people who want to be enlightened more about Bitcoin. I believe you know many or all things written in the book well.