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Author Topic: Say no to maximalism  (Read 1321 times)
vjudeu
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August 17, 2024, 10:55:26 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #101

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So I am not sure what you are getting at here.
In the current model, you have altcoin miners, which are selling their altcoins, just to get some BTCs. Because it is more profitable to mine some altcoins, and sell them, than to mine BTC directly. Which means, that first, you get some altcoins (weak blocks on layer two), and then you convert them to BTCs (stronger blocks on layer one). In between, your altcoin can lose or gain value, it can be unstable, there could be some timing attacks, some speculation attacks, and a lot of other attacks.

So, why not have a proper layer two, instead of having weak altcoins, and selling them, just to get some BTCs? As you can see, those who sold their LTCs, XMRs, or other coins in the past, and converted them into BTCs, they gained more, than those, who simply kept their altcoins. And of course, there are cycles, there are times, when people buy a lot of altcoins, and there are times, when they sell a lot of them. But as long as BTC domination is jumping around 50%, it is the same situation, as having 100% domination, and 42 million coins, but locked in different networks.

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No serious entity would use Bitcoin this way.
There are many parties, which accept a single BTC confirmation as "rock solid". Also, many sites will show you, that some transaction is "pending", if it will have zero confirmations, and will be recorded in their mempool. As long as your amount is "coinbase covered", you are good to go. Which means, if the coinbase amount is for example 3 BTC, and you are sending 1 BTC, then you won't reorg this "3 BTC block", and replace it with something else, because it will cost you more than 1 BTC, to successfully execute a double-spending attack.

Obviously, "coinbase coverage" also works in altcoins. Which means, that if the altcoin reward is 50 ALTs, and you are sending 1000 ALTs, then you should wait something around 20 blocks (1000/50=20). To get exact numbers, you can of course compute Poisson distribution, but using "coinbase coverage" is just easier: for amounts smaller than the coinbase, a single confirmation is usually sufficient, and for amounts bigger than the coinbase, this rule will usually give you bigger amount of confirmations, than you need.

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Again, I really don't understand what you are talking about here.
Using more than one coin is not that different, than using more than one layer. If you have some altcoin, you mine it, you sell it, and then you get some BTCs out of that, then it is not that much different, than having a proper second layer, instead of using two coins on the first layer.

The main difference, is if you have layers, then you can have a strong peg, for example 1:1 peg. However, if all coins are on their first layer, then there are different exchange rates, there are different network conditions, and you risk more, when converting between BTCs and ALTs, than if they are all connected, through some kind of layers.

For example: if you use LN, then you lock your BTCs, you get 1:1000 constant exchange rate, and everything is converted from satoshis to millisatoshis, and then you can convert it back, using 1000:1 constant exchange rate, to get all of those locked satoshis back. However, if you do the same with BTC and ALT, then it is no longer 1:1, 1:1000, or some other constant rate. It is volatile. And those networks are different, there are different risks, different network rules, timing attacks, and so on. And by rejecting maximalism, and second layers, every coin uses just their first layer, and it is much harder to make a risk-free trade (because even if your ALT fees are smaller, then the price of your ALT can change in the meantime, and it may turn out, that BTC fee was higher, but the price change was smaller, so the final outcome was better).

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legiteum
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August 17, 2024, 11:57:32 PM
 #102


So, why not have a proper layer two, instead of having weak altcoins, and selling them, just to get some BTCs?


I guess my perspective has been that of a mainstream digital currency users, whereas yours is that of a miner.

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August 18, 2024, 06:49:56 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #103

Guess what: Litecoin was created, because of mining. Old Bitcoin users mined their coins on their CPUs and GPUs, and they noticed, that by mining with double SHA-256, they can get less and less coins. The difficulty adjustment worked exactly as intended. But: many people still wanted to mine.

And what altcoin developers did? Well, they switched from double SHA-256, into something else, called Scrypt. Why? Because at that time, it was not profitable to create an ASIC for a completely different hash function. And the same thing happened with Monero, and other altcoins: they picked some different hash functions, to make sure, that they will not compete with double SHA-256 miners (because they lost that competition, otherwise, they would all just mine Bitcoin).

So, it is not "just a perspective of a miner". Many altcoins have only one purpose: to be mineable, without upgrading your hardware. So, instead of switching from CPUs or GPUs into ASICs, some people just made some altcoins, to serve the only purpose: mine ALT, sell it for BTC, and create some field for experimentation.

And then, in the short term, some users can even win. They can bring some of their BTCs into exchanges, sell them for ALTs, and get some new features. However, in the long term, they lose, because all of those miners are just producing ALTs, and selling them to those users, because they can get more BTCs in the process, than they could, if they would mine BTC directly.

Also, if you don't believe me, that "mining is the only purpose for a lot of altcoins", then check, how many times they changed their mining algorithms. Bitcoin uses double SHA-256 from the very beginning, and it is not going to change, as long as it is not broken. However, many altcoins do some hard-forks, and they switch from one mining algo to another, if they can no longer mine with their network difficulty. It is easier for them to change the code, than to upgrade their hardware.

Which also means, that altcoins' difficulty is somewhat "fake". Because they don't promise, that "if the difficulty will rise, then you will get less coins". Instead, what they deliver is "as long as we can mine coins with our hardware, we keep it as it is, but if you rise it by too much, then we will switch the algo again, and again".

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ABCbits
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August 18, 2024, 08:47:54 AM
 #104

And what altcoin developers did? Well, they switched from double SHA-256, into something else, called Scrypt. Why? Because at that time, it was not profitable to create an ASIC for a completely different hash function. And the same thing happened with Monero, and other altcoins: they picked some different hash functions, to make sure, that they will not compete with double SHA-256 miners (because they lost that competition, otherwise, they would all just mine Bitcoin).

FWIW, Monero is one of few altcoin which continuously put some effort to stop ASIC. I remember XMR had few hard-fork which discourage creation of ASIC, although such method is rather crude.

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legiteum
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August 18, 2024, 02:32:47 PM
 #105

Guess what: Litecoin was created, because of mining.

So in other words, it succeeded despite not trying to solve any problems consumers had. Lots of products get created that way, but I wouldn't recommend doing that on purpose.

Quote

So, it is not "just a perspective of a miner". Many altcoins have only one purpose: to be mineable, without upgrading your hardware.


Why would you create a product that not meant to be used by anybody? Why does an end-user of a currency care how easy it was to mine, or even whether it was mined at all?

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Also, if you don't believe me, that "mining is the only purpose for a lot of altcoins", then check, how many times they changed their mining algorithms.

Lots of altcoins aren't mined at all. I get that a lot are, and that you are absolutely right about a lot of them or even most of them, but that's not how it has to be, necessarily. It makes no difference to the end-user of a currency in terms of transactions, although I suppose it makes a difference if you are investing in the coin.


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August 18, 2024, 04:31:33 PM
 #106

Actually bitcoin is superior to the other alts in many ways. None of the alts have the same network effect which bitcoin has. Bitcoin had a natural coin distribution since the beginning and it is because even though satoshi was the first miner, his coins never moved.

Charlie Lee on the other hand, dumped his coins on the LTC investors. Whether it was a good thing or bad, it depends how you look at it but it happened and LTC couldn't recover from that dump. It is a good thing, because the worst has already happened. Nothing worse can happen to LTC. The bad thing is, the worst thing has happened. :/

Something like that will never happen to bitcoin.
Bitcoin is the king of crypto, so it goes to show that bitcoin leads the crypto market while altcoins follow the path of bitcoin. I tend not to be a maximalist but it’s obvious that bitcoin tops it all more than altcoins and the rest of shitcoins. If you have been here in the market for quite long, you will understand that bitcoin has an edge over the rest. And it’s undeniable, as everyone is going to side bitcoin no matter how few altcoins are still profitable.

But it's still viable to have not only BTC with you because diversification is key for a good portfolio.

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August 18, 2024, 05:09:51 PM
 #107

Maximalism is quite a thing though. I've never been of the opinion that bitcoin is 100% better than every other crypto currency. Undoubtedly bitcoin has been the best when it comes to investment so far especially in the case of long term investment.  However for a couple of other things like fees especially in times of congestion bitcoin wasn't the best option. The fact is everyone is condemning altcoins because too many of them out there are simply pump and dump schemes.

Many persons are unable to differentiate these pump and dump coins that's why they end up losing funds to them . Bitcoin has actually proven to be the best at long term returns and that's just fact coupled with decentralisation. Altcoins too have their own applications like in cases of more frequent and light weight transactions.
It is bad enough to think that a certain cryptocurrency is autonomous and complete in terms of integration into the various sectors and needs of the internet space and everyday life activities. Nothing is ever complete; every project solves a problem and leaves others for other innovations to solve too and your neutrality to making decisions on what is needed at any point in time helps you get the best.

Bitcoin has its unique features which makes people run to it which includes being a store of value and a hedge against inflation and appreciating in value when held for a longer period of time to the benefit of the investor and you can use your investments in bitcoin to secure your financial future. It also has a very high liquidity which makes it very easy to buy, sell and trade, but the same bitcoin requires high transaction fees to be sent around which makes it a very bad Idea for day to day activities of a company, sending bitcoins across to another person is also a slow process and may not happen in real time.

Ethereum has  its own application of smart contracts, allowing it to sustain creation of decentralized apps and platforms and has one of , if not the largest ecosystem of developers, DAPPS and NFTs, although it is very expensive to send around and is not a positive choice for little transactions and implementations.

Solana on the other hand happens to be one of the fastest in terms of transaction speed up to (65,000 transactions per second) and offers low fees, with a rapidly growing ecosystem that supports many Dapps, NFTs and other projects being integrated into it. It is also getting increasingly decentralized and can possibly do better in the future

Ton on the other hand has been integrated into telegram, the largest platform for gaming apps and micro projects development and offers fast transactions at reduced prices making it suitable for smaller scale and Immediate transactions . It also uses a multi-blockchain structure to enhance scalability, speed and efficiency in transactions. only issues being that it is purportedly centralized and native to telegram and its being new with low adaptation owing to the numerous uncertainties surrounding its development.


The above and many more unmentioned points should educate us of the different important roles each cryptocurrency might play and when to utilize them or others to your own advantage. Personally, when I want to invest, I turn to bitcoin, but when I wish to send little funds around, I convert bitcoin to USDT and use BNB(beep20) to limit transaction fees and deliver payment in less than a minute. Some level of flexibility is required of us even in thinking and execution of concerns in order to be more balanced and effective in our activities

R


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franky1
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August 18, 2024, 07:04:44 PM
 #108

when certain individuals celebrate code that adds bloat of upto 4mb to a single transaction, where most data does not even go through a validation set of rules to check its actually viable bitcoin transaction related data..

when certain individuals celebrate code that bumps the fee's too easily, where by it then excludes populations in their billions due to the fee's alone being multiple hours of nominal wage for such populations..

when certain individuals celebrate a centralised group of devs with their self controlled moderation and member banning of whom gets to propose new features, upgrades, expansions and scaling options..

when certain individuals celebrate any and all events, added headaches and hindrances that cause people to abandon bitcoin to then use other networks..

.. and then those same individuals want to pretend those that want whats best for bitcoin are the enemy of bitcoin.. it really shows those people whom promote other networks and the abandonment plans of bitcoin, are actually the real anti-bitcoin folk

yes there are other crypto's and payment systems and each have their own smaller niche purpose people are free to choose for own personal uses.. but to have individuals trying so hard to push an agenda of wanting to cripple bitcoin and make it undesirable and want people to not be loyal to bitcoin, just to recruit them over to other networks.. just shows how mentally insecure they are..
their favoured other systems should at the very minimal actually work without bugs and issues, without having to lie or sweep under the rug the flaws.. basically if a secondary favoured network was to popularise it would be able to do so naturally via actually meeting users needs securely and not need deceitful people trying to sway everyone to abandon a secure working network, by making the secure network less desirable

I DO NOT TRADE OR ACT AS ESCROW ON THIS FORUM EVER.
Please do your own research & respect what is written here as both opinion & information gleaned from experience. many people replying with insults but no on-topic content substance, automatically are 'facepalmed' and yawned at
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Today at 07:48:42 AM
 #109

FWIW, Monero is one of few altcoin which continuously put some effort to stop ASIC. I remember XMR had few hard-fork which discourage creation of ASIC, although such method is rather crude.

Isn't that "censorship"? I understand the Monero team is trying to make the XMR blockchain equal or fairer to everyone. But restricting ASICs would go against crypto's true principles of freedom. With Bitcoin, you can still mine with a CPU or FPGA (albeit at a lower chance to turn a profit). Even if ASICs have taken over the market. Some developers proposed taking down Ordinals inscriptions to solve the "high fee problem". It didn't go anywhere because this was nothing more than an attempt to censor Bitcoin.

There's a reason why BTC is still #1. And that's because it sticks to the values of decentralization and censorship-resistance. Tell me one altcoin that is as good as Bitcoin. The only ones that come close to it are Litecoin and Dogecoin. Yet, they're not as battle-tested as Bitcoin is. As long as unreliable and centralized altcoins exist, don't expect Bitcoin maximalists to change their mind anytime soon.

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Today at 08:42:31 AM
 #110

FWIW, Monero is one of few altcoin which continuously put some effort to stop ASIC. I remember XMR had few hard-fork which discourage creation of ASIC, although such method is rather crude.

Isn't that "censorship"? I understand the Monero team is trying to make the XMR blockchain equal or fairer to everyone. But restricting ASICs would go against crypto's true principles of freedom. With Bitcoin, you can still mine with a CPU or FPGA (albeit at a lower chance to turn a profit). Even if ASICs have taken over the market. Some developers proposed taking down Ordinals inscriptions to solve the "high fee problem". It didn't go anywhere because this was nothing more than an attempt to censor Bitcoin.

I don't know how you define word "censorship", but Monero initially designed to be ASIC resistant. So IMO anyone who attempt to make ASIC for it should be aware of the risks. Besides, there's no way you can mine Bitcoin using with CPU or FPGA at profit, unless you managed to mine a block through solo block.

There's a reason why BTC is still #1. And that's because it sticks to the values of decentralization and censorship-resistance. Tell me one altcoin that is as good as Bitcoin. The only ones that come close to it are Litecoin and Dogecoin. Yet, they're not as battle-tested as Bitcoin is. As long as unreliable and centralized altcoins exist, don't expect Bitcoin maximalists to change their mind anytime soon.

As reminder, LTC+DOGE merged mining exist where DOGE security depends on LTC.

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Today at 10:54:25 AM
 #111

-snip-
Don't be myopic and dogmatic. Say no to maximalism.
I can't believe I'm just seeing this beautiful post just now, it's one of the best to say the reality of the situation and not biased in seeing Bitcoin as perfect.

Many of the shortcomings of Bitcoin were certainly taken advantage of in most altcoins and even the traditional Fiats/Gold has some peculiarities that Bitcoin does not have. This is just as Bitcoin has some penalties they do not have too. By virtue, we should appreciate all of them if they show us value and find a way to use them where necessary for our benefit.

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TsenTsen
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Today at 02:43:10 PM
 #112

If we consider how Investment trend has shifted several times in history and nowadays' trend is about cryptocurrency, I think that more people will follow this mindset because of social medias are making people join the trend out of the Fear of Missing out. It is becoming worse especially after a lot of so-called Investment influencers are talking about it massively and has fed on internet users' fear of missing out especially on nowadays' uncertainty on economy and making money.

If this cryptocurrency has becoming more common among all people in different age has accepted it, since we know older generation are still being skeptical towards it,  perhaps when their skepticism are gone, people will start to look for another alternative to invest their money on something, probably property will rise and become a trend again, we never know
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