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Author Topic: What would be the best way to get through customs at an airport with your Btc?  (Read 726 times)
LoyceV
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August 24, 2024, 09:20:41 AM
 #41

My point is: make a list of how your valuable data could be found or inspected and try to find reasonable mitigation
How many people here have actually had their electronic devices searched by customs? I don't know anyone who's had that experience.

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August 24, 2024, 09:41:03 AM
 #42

How many people here have actually had their electronic devices searched by customs? I don't know anyone who's had that experience.
They have rights to do this but they super rarely do it.

Except if you are recognized by them as a threat like a terrorist and the like by true or mistaken, they will not touch you and search your electronic devices. Risk exists but not too big.

I like the idea to uninstall wallet applications on my electronic devices and have my seed phrase in a book and in brain. If it is only for traveling, I have little reasons to bring my big wallet, all my bitcoin around and across borders, airports. By bringing a small hot wallet through traveling, I reduce risk of losing all my bitcoin.

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August 24, 2024, 10:17:06 AM
 #43

They have rights to do this but they super rarely do it.

Except if you are recognized by them as a threat like a terrorist and the like by true or mistaken, they will not touch you and search your electronic devices. Risk exists but not too big.
That's how I see and perceive it, too. I never had real issues when crossing borders, though my sample space isn't that large.

When I had a laptop in my hand luggage, it got x-rayed and I had to "prove" it's not a bomb by showing the security it turns on and "behaves" like a normal laptop. My mobile phone was never touched nor inspected nor did I have to show anything on it.

People supporting Edward Snowden or Julian Assange are likely treated differently, especially when crossing USA or other very USA devoted countries' borders.

We discuss here a topic with premisses set by OP. My assumption here is, you need to cross borders with all your coins you possess. Yes, I know, we don't carry the coins, we have to carry all details necessary to recover all our private keys that control all our coins. Whatever you do upfront to minimize those needed recovery details, is up to you.

If I'm paranoid and don't want to give any hint that I have Bitcoin, I wouldn't carry a hardware wallet with me, even when it's factory reset. I can't assume, any security or border personal doesn't know how the most common hardware wallets look like. If I want to minimize risk, I don't stretch my luck.

And this here isn't only about digital devices. Anything is valid, be it digital or analog or carved into your wet brain memory. The latter is risky, human memory is a fragile thing, keep this in mind (pun intended).

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shield132
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August 24, 2024, 10:20:59 AM
 #44

From what I see from several answers, I may not have explained myself well. Going on vacation and carrying less than the legal minimum is not a problem. I was thinking more of moving to another country, and taking the holdings you normally manage with your Hardware Wallet on your laptop or PC.

I mean, carrying 0.01 BTC on your mobile is not a problem but if we are talking about 0.5 BTC that you manage with the HW....

Although I see that this is pretty hypothetical, according to the answers.

I had also thought of taking the seeds written in a book or notebook on several pages, but with invisible ink, so that no way that it will occur to customs agents to search through a book of 300 pages.
If I were you, this is what I would do. If I were changing living, I would probably risk moving with a Hardware wallet but since this can be an issue, I would go this way - Your t-shirt has a label tag inside. Create a wallet with 12 seed phrases, transfer coins to this wallet, then write down 12 seed phrases on your t-shirt's label tags (mine has multiple) and when you move in another country, buy a brand new hardware wallet, restore the wallet and destroy the t-shirt.

Be frank, isn't it very creative? And safe?


Well, in the EU you must declare everything over 10.000€.
You can also not declare. Who is going to know that you hold Bitcoins that are worth more than 10K euros? No one will know. That law also applies exclusively to cash as far as I know.

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August 24, 2024, 10:34:02 AM
 #45

write down 12 seed phrases on your t-shirt's label tags
Good luck explaining to the armed guy at customs why you wrote "armed assault monkey" on your t-shirts Wink You see what I'm going at Wink

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August 24, 2024, 10:42:01 AM
 #46

write down 12 seed phrases on your t-shirt's label tags
Good luck explaining to the armed guy at customs why you wrote "armed assault monkey" on your t-shirts Wink You see what I'm going at Wink
On the label tag, mate.
Who is going to read this in the airport?


Keep in mind that many t-shirts have it inside in the middle part of the the body.

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August 25, 2024, 04:20:43 PM
 #47

Who is going to read this in the airport?

I kinda like the creative idea as long as there's enough space to write 12x 4-char-abbreviations of the mnemonic recovery words. They should be unique with four first characters. To be on the safe side, I'd protect the wallet with an additional mnemonic passphrase, just in case things go really south at the security check or whereever at customs border crossing.

Be sure to use a permanent cloth pen and recover the wallet before you wash your t-shirt again. Or check multiple washing cycles before you rely on durability of this type of backup medium.

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August 25, 2024, 05:28:14 PM
 #48

I'd say bringing 30 encrypted SD cards is overcomplicating things Wink
Apparently I wasn't specific enough. I didn't mean to have 30 encrypted microSD cards, only very few have actually encrypted stuff on them, the others you could fill with music files or whatever you like.

When you travel e.g. with a digital camera, having a lot of storage cards doesn't raise eyebrows and suspicion. Carrying a lot of cards should make it a pain for the border customs folks to inspect or even copy them all. People might be lazy...

Anyway, it was just an idea. There are much simpler, non-digital ways to transport wallet recovery data safely and likely unsuspiciously through border customs.

My point is: make a list of how your valuable data could be found or inspected and try to find reasonable mitigation which isn't easy to spot and involves unsuspicious items almost every voyager carries or uses. Books, personal diaries, small phone number notebook, yadda, yadda, ...

If you are going to do it that way just embed the info in a legitimate image using something like this:
https://pypi.org/project/cryptosteganography/

Many other options available to do it.

Even if someone looks through every image it still will not matter unless they try to decode / decrypt every image.

I really don't think anyone is going to bother going that deep unless you are on some list. And if you are it probably does not matter anyway they already know what you have.

-Dave

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August 25, 2024, 07:03:12 PM
 #49

write down 12 seed phrases on your t-shirt's label tags
Good luck explaining to the armed guy at customs why you wrote "armed assault monkey" on your t-shirts Wink You see what I'm going at Wink
On the label tag, mate.
Who is going to read this in the airport?


Keep in mind that many t-shirts have it inside in the middle part of the the body.

It still carries a certain amount of risk. What if your luggage gets lost or stolen in the process? You could lose access to your wallet and funds. Hopefully, you should have backups in safe locations, but then youre back to square one.

Its a creative idea, though.  Wink

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August 25, 2024, 08:36:04 PM
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 #50

There is a video series on YouTube which is fantastic! I watched it just for fun, but I would to like to hear someone else's opinion on that, perhaps after actually trying it.

"Escape with your Bitcoin":

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWGXdn3sdp8
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMQupuGpSsw
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1urPLr83Ojg

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August 27, 2024, 04:57:55 AM
 #51

Be frank, isn't it very creative? And safe?

Not bad but for that I prefer the option I mentioned before, write the seeds in invisible ink in a book and then make it visible upon arrival at the destination to restore the wallet.

There is a video series on YouTube which is fantastic! I watched it just for fun, but I would to like to hear someone else's opinion on that, perhaps after actually trying it.

"Escape with your Bitcoin":

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWGXdn3sdp8
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMQupuGpSsw
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1urPLr83Ojg

I think that's almost a couple of hours in total but thanks, I'll watch them.

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August 27, 2024, 08:29:23 AM
 #52

There is a video series on YouTube which is fantastic! I watched it just for fun, but I would to like to hear someone else's opinion on that, perhaps after actually trying it.

"Escape with your Bitcoin":

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWGXdn3sdp8
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMQupuGpSsw
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1urPLr83Ojg

I only briefly see the 1st part ("Personal Server"). But since it involve using PGP and setting server where you access it with .onion rather than plain IP address, average people would find it challenging. You're expected to ensure the server remains on and connected to internet, before you move elsewhere and access it remotely. While you could rent VPS for that task, some trust is required even though you store the encrypted data (seed, pass, etc.).

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August 27, 2024, 10:27:42 AM
 #53

I only briefly see the 1st part ("Personal Server"). But since it involve using PGP and setting server where you access it with .onion rather than plain IP address, average people would find it challenging.
It's truly challenging for normal users.

I watched some videos of Andreas Antonopoulos in which he advised that people should never complicate their back up methods too much because it can result in more complex recovery procedure. In worst case, if recovery procedure is broken in the middle by broken piece of initial back ups, the wallet will be lost forever.

Brute force a Bitcoin private key or wallet is almost impossible and the bottom line is keep your back up simple.

Some people choose seed splitting which is risky and not recommended.
Seed splitting is a bad idea.

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August 27, 2024, 10:34:06 AM
 #54

I watched some videos of Andreas Antonopoulos in which he advised that people should never complicate their back up methods too much because it can result in more complex recovery procedure.
You mean like this?

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August 27, 2024, 04:51:40 PM
 #55

I think in the best technical way to get through without the agents being able to detect that you have a single satoshi. The most logical would be to memorize the seeds but relying on memory would not leave me 100% at ease. Is there another feasible, safe way?
I think the safest way to go through airport customs with bitcoin is when you have NOTHING with you that can be linked to bitcoin (no seed phrase, no hardware wallets, no pre-installed wallets on laptops and phones).

I'll explain how I imagine it (but this will only work if you've already visited the point of arrival and departure, i.e. the point of arrival is not new).

Point "A" (point of departure): as usual, you create a BTC-wallet with a secure storage of the seed phrase.
Point "B" (point of arrival): a BTC-wallet with a secure storage of the seed phrase has been created in advance.
Before the flight from point "A" to point "B" you make a transaction from the 1st wallet to the 2nd and by the time of arrival, your bitcoin will already be in the wallet, and at customs you will not have anything incriminating related to the bitcoin (in case of a detailed inspection).

But this option is not suitable for emergency (unscheduled) flights.

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August 27, 2024, 05:06:00 PM
 #56

by the time of arrival, your bitcoin will already be in the wallet
It's going into semantics, but there is no Bitcoin in a wallet. Bitcoin is on the blockchain. I don't see the point of creating a wallet on your destination before funding it. Even worse: that creates new points of failure: the wallet can be compromised while you're not there.

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August 28, 2024, 11:16:09 AM
 #57

I only briefly see the 1st part ("Personal Server"). But since it involve using PGP and setting server where you access it with .onion rather than plain IP address, average people would find it challenging.
It's truly challenging for normal users.

I watched some videos of Andreas Antonopoulos in which he advised that people should never complicate their back up methods too much because it can result in more complex recovery procedure. In worst case, if recovery procedure is broken in the middle by broken piece of initial back ups, the wallet will be lost forever.

Generally, i agree with Andreas. Although each people would choose different security/ease-of-use trade-off. Video shared by @apogio is still suitable for those who're familiar with setup and maintaining server.

Point "B" (point of arrival): a BTC-wallet with a secure storage of the seed phrase has been created in advance.

I think you forget to mention that you need to store the device or other medium which used store the private key/seed securely. Unless you have property on point "B", you probably have to place the device/other medium on someone's else building.

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August 28, 2024, 02:23:46 PM
 #58

If you are going to do it that way just embed the info in a legitimate image using something like this:
https://pypi.org/project/cryptosteganography/

Many other options available to do it.

Even if someone looks through every image it still will not matter unless they try to decode / decrypt every image.

I really don't think anyone is going to bother going that deep unless you are on some list. And if you are it probably does not matter anyway they already know what you have.

-Dave
As DaveF mentioned, steganography techniques can be more interesting than other complicated methods, but before hiding a message as a seed in an image, you won't do it with a bare seed without protection, you can add a passphrase, but I wouldn't do that in this case.

One of the techniques I've been studying is seed-otp, which consists of creating a multifactor authentication key, this key combined with your mnemonic phrase creates a new list of words indistinguishable from your original mnemonic phrase, which is nothing more than your encrypted seed, but instead of the encrypted output in cyphertext with a sequence of unreadable random bytes, this method uses words similar to the BIP39 wordlist to encode your original mnemonic phrase. You could stop here, but you would still have to explain to the customs guard why you still carry a list with 12/24 words (if this ever really happens, the chances of it happening I believe are very low).

With the mnemonic phrase encrypted by seed-otp, you can load this information into an image by embedding it and optionally inserting a password. There are several applications that fulfill this function, one of them is OpenStego (I haven't used any others). This way, you can save the image that carries the secret of your encrypted wallet on your smartphone, pen drive or any other media device that carries images. This way, there is no way to suspect a simple image, even if you inspect your device (I've never seen this happen).

You must remember your OTP key responsible for restoring the mnemonic phrase to its original state. To do this, you can save this key in a keepass file or another password manager of your choice or write it down on a piece of paper, since it won't draw attention in the same way as a list of words known to be a bitcoin wallet mnemonic.

Here is an example step-by-step:

1st let's say you create a new mnemonic phrase or use an existing one, download the html file from the seed tools page (the process is similar to iancoleman), after everything is ready, create or insert your recovery seed:





2nd Go to "Select a Bitcoin Tool" and select the "One Time Pad" option, below there will be a "One Time pad key" field containing an otp key, if you prefer, you can generate a new otp key by clicking on "New Key".





3rd After creating the otp-key, click on "encrypt" and a new list of words similar to a mnemonic will be created, it is nothing more than your encrypted mnemonic.




Ex:
My original mnemonic:
Code:
auto pelican midnight initial barrel kitten aisle rate proof leader point private

My otp-key:
Code:
AAwFIAN4AwUCxQaTBhcEsgHmBe8EagHsAVdVUxlP

My encrypted one time pad seed:
Code:
receive bacon unfair smart topple dilemma orbit upon health armed tooth stock

It is essential that you know the original mnemonic, have it written down or memorized (regardless of the method, memorize your mnemonic in addition to having it written down), save the otp-key and the one-time-pad encrypted seed so that we can test it and verify that it returns to the original state of your seed upon arrival at the airport and at your final destination.

To do this, reload the page, select "one time Pad" again, paste your otp-key in the "One Time Pad Key" field, paste/type your mnemonic phrase encrypted by One Time Pad and click "DECRYPT".

The final result is your original mnemonic phrase  Wink


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August 28, 2024, 04:56:17 PM
 #59

Well, in the EU you must declare everything over 10.000€.
You could argue you're not bringing anything physical. Otherwise hiding it from customs would be illegal.
Bitcoin isn't in your wallet, Bitcoin is on the blockchain. You may have access to it, but that's kinda like having access to your bank account when you're abroad.

You're probably right, although it could be argued that e.g. a physical coin with a prepaid balance and a seed phrase (or qr code) hidden inside of it would potentially fall under declarable goods, as whoever owns it would have access to those bitcoins. It wouldn't be quite the same as having internet bank account. So potentially the method of storing bitcoins could matter for crossing a border.
I suspect in some countries that could still be a grey area and subject to customs officers' interpretation.

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August 28, 2024, 05:05:53 PM
 #60

I suspect in some countries that could still be a grey area and subject to customs officers' interpretation.
Agreed, it's probably a gray area. What if for instance the private key is encrypted and I don't have the key with me?

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