Fun fact: Cryptocurrencies are not Assets, but Activity Logs

[PrivacyG]

I had a feeling this will turn by the end into a 'Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme' sort of Thread, so I skipped straight to the end and I was not surprised by the ending at all

With stocks, owners can benefit from the company's profits or capital. Profits can be paid out as dividends, and capital can be liquidated or used to repurchase shares.

With Bitcoin, owners can benefit from its speculated Price and can transfer their Assets to other people with no restrictions.  Along MANY other advantages.  What is your point?

Within cryptocurrency systems, nothing like this exists. There are no resources that can provide a benefit to cryptocurrency owners. There are only records.

Welcome to the Digital Currencies.  Of course a Digital Asset does not have any backing resource.  Bitcoin IS the resource.

Come on.  You are trying to get us into the idea through this 'Bitcoin is an Activity Log' thing and then manipulating us into thinking this means Bitcoin is a Scam.  How in the World did you get from one to the other.  Yes, the Bitcoin Blockchain is a LEDGER.

For example, a few moments ago, one person gave another $61,182. In the Bitcoin system, this was recorded as an increment of 1 to the number associated with the first person's address and a decrement of 1 to the number associated with the second person's address. Initially, people gave each other $0.001 for the same numerical update (+1/-1). Such updates (positive ones) occure also when someone spends energy to maintain a decentralized database that stores these updates (blockchain).

Have you ever heard of Demand?  Scarcity?  Deflationary Assets?  Maybe you also heard the combination of these three means the value of the Asset is going to increase significantly?

Comparing the '+1/-1' of today to the '+1/-1' of over a decade ago lacks all possible sense.  Let me give you an example so you understand why it is a ridiculous comparison.

A few hours ago in my country, one person sold another a $100,000 house.  In the records of the Government, this was recorded as an increment of 1 to the number associated with the first person's amount of owned properties and a decrement of 1 to the number associated with the second person's amount of owned properties.  Five years ago, people gave each other $50,000 for the same house.

Does this mean houses are not real?  Real inflation or not, this is how the Economy works.  So maybe you just need to read up on how the Economy works to understand why Bitcoin has such a high value right now.

By the way.  I do get such a strong feeling that I read almost exactly the same idea a long time ago over here.  Definitely not written by your Username though.  Do you have other Bitcoin Talk accounts by any chance?

[headingnorth]

Paul Krugman the Noble Laureate economist said the same thing about the internet in 1998,
that the internet would never have any meaningful impact on the economy.

Most people thought the automobile would never replace the horse and buggy, light bulbs would never replace kerosene lamps,
mass airline travel could never exist, the internet would have no significant impact on the economy, etc.

What many seem to be afflicted with is a failure of imagination and are dead set in their conventional way of thinking.
I would say people in general have a hard time grasping the huge impacts of major technological changes and are in denial about it
until it cannot be denied anymore.

The fact is most people are closed-minded luddites who abhor change and don't want the boat to be rocked.

[DaveF]

Does anyone bother checking the trust / feedback of people before replying to their posts.
The OP in the words of nutildah

narrow-minded anti-bitcoin troll, there's no point in responding to this user

And lets not forget

JamesNZ = Snowshow = Antithesis = antikvark = fxsurfer troll account.
Ban evasion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5228148.0

Just ignore them and move on.
Or add your own negative trust and move on.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=3557311

-Dave

[Ambatman]

Edited out

I always hate replying threads like this but can't help it
No matter what's been said its not going change the poster view.
Their view been unchangeable mean nothing to me but sharing it with lack of concrete proof can create FUD for newbies.




To your post I just quoted.
An asset is something that's useful and valuable.
Since you can't agree with our view
I'm gonna use your on words

In your word

transferring the ability to change the numbers associated with digital addresses

This right here it's a use
And I think it's price shows if it is valuable or not cause if it wasn't we should be seeing $0.

And lets not forget

JamesNZ = Snowshow = Antithesis = antikvark = fxsurfer troll account.
Ban evasion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5228148.0

I thought there was a Penalty to ban evasion, why is the OP is active?

[d5000]

Activity logs are actually quite useful. Social media are also nothing more than "activity logs", logging interactions between users (in the form of posts, videos, images ...) but they have a value for the people who post there. So much value that people are trading Meta shares to a similar price than Bitcoin.

With Bitcoin it's quite similar: It's an activity log but logging financial interactions, like buying and selling goods. The catch is of course: With Bitcoin you can do this with advantages you don't have with other "activity logs" like Visa which was already mentioned, like censorship resistance, independence from intermediaries, and global reach (at least to every place on Earth where there's internet access, and with satellites the spots where this is not the case are less every month ...).

Also the "business model" is similar. Meta shares enable you to profit from advertising, which is one of the use case of the activity log. Bitcoin "shares" allow you to profit from the advantages the Bitcoin network offers, for example buying and selling goods without intermediaries and censorship.

I wonder what's the next analogy the OP will bring up: Empty paper? A CD?

I originally posted on this thread yesterday in a similar vein, but then deleted the post to respect the desire of some people to not feed the OP (see his trust network etc.). However, as I see that he's alredy been fed I re-post my opinion. I think we all know what the OP's intentions are, so that's not the point here. The idea is to see why some analogies work and some do not.

[Cryptohygenic]

I am deeply in doubt with you that bitcoin is not an asset Op and there is no fun to play around with bitcoin because it is a digital value that is worth treasured.

If I may ask, are you a bitcoin users/Investor or trader or do you transact with bitcoin in any any? If yes, what is your benefit for it? If no, why are your goals before coming to the forum as titled "bitcointalk" which primary reasons why we are all here is to learn and grow our knowledges about bitcoin with the hint or awareness that it is a lucrative digital currency that is alternatively used for payments.

If you have not found a testifier about the asset values or bitcoin, then you can count on me because I am benefits much a lot on my investment in this bitcoin sector.

[franky1]

For example, a few moments ago, one person gave another $61,182. In the Bitcoin system, this was recorded as an increment of 1 to the number associated with the first person's address and a decrement of 1 to the number associated with the second person's address. Initially, people gave each other $0.001 for the same numerical update (+1/-1). Such updates (positive ones) occure also when someone spends energy to maintain a decentralized database that stores these updates (blockchain).

Obviously, these numerical updates do not represent transfers of an asset, unlike with shares and fiat currencies. That's simply because a person whose number has increased does not, as a result, have the ability to realize greater benefit from a resource within the cryptocurrency system. In the case of shares or fiat currencies, such a person would be able to receive a larger dividend from a company or more goods, services, or labor from bank debtors.

From this, only one conclusion follows: a blockchain doesn't store the record of transactions. For a transaction to occur and be recorded, there must be an asset that changes owners. However, within cryptocurrency systems, no assets are involved—only records of changes in numbers associated with digital addresses.

firstly comparing it to stocks/shares you need to realise their is a ownership registry of said certified ownership rights which is separate to the market trade orderbook of the wall street marketplace of said stocks/shares..
much like crypto has CEX's orderbooks separate to the blockchain ledger

the shares registry is not the determination of a dividend value, share value, or ask/bid price for individuals purchase/sell. the market place handles the individual pricings and corporate policy and chairmen decisions are the deciding factor of things like dividends. which is separate to the share ownership registry of the transfers/transactional proof of ownership change

also blockchains DO show transfers/transactions of ownership change as they have the UTXO which shows previous ownership address and then it shows the destination address of where the amount ends up

again for emphasis
your shares portfolio/market dashboard that shows unit held and fiat value of holdings is a separate records database compared to the corporations share ownership ledger.. and neither of those records/ledgers are the deciding factor of dividends

please try to learn more about not only the economics of blockchain currency assets but also the economics of any asset, as it appears you lack knowledge of alot of things

[stompix]

The biggest misconception in the world of cryptocurrencies is that they are assets—specifically, a monetary type of asset.

I love it when some guy suddenly finds inspiration and sees what nobody before has seen, unfortunately in most cases, just like in this one he has seen things that aren't actually there.

Obviously, these numerical updates do not represent transfers of an asset, unlike with shares and fiat currencies. That's simply because a person whose number has increased does not, as a result, have the ability to realize greater benefit from a resource within the cryptocurrency system. In the case of shares or fiat currencies, such a person would be able to receive a larger dividend from a company or more goods, services, or labor from bank debtors.

Since cutting down your theory to a simpler version.
Since transfers on the blockchain don't represent a transfer of assets it means you can transfer all your coins to my address and then magically you can still use your coins or buy something with them while at the same time, I will not be able to realize a greater benefit how you say from receiving those coins. Now, do you realize how dumb this is?

Moreover, based on your same there, what happens when such a "numeric update" invoces someone receiving fiat for it, since fiat transfer is always an action of receiving further benefit how could it not be a benefit in getting coins? You've just described a paradox of turning value into the void by getting value from the void.

Now normally I would ask you to send your coins to my address since this is not a transfer of value but I have a feeling you don't have one satoshi.

[JamesNZ]

You're skirting around the problem that your framework is inconsistent and that by your very definition stocks like VISA or PayPal would fail to be assets beyond the physical buildings they inhabit.

Visa an PayPay balances are assets because they represent fiat money. Log updates that you Bitcoin holders make represent nothing. So your comparation failed.

What is crazy here is how many nonsensical excuses are you crypto people capable to come up with just not to admit what you see with your own eyes.

I'm not talking about Visa's and PayPal's balances though. Those belong to their customers, not the companies or their shareholders. Where does the value of these companies come from, within your framework?

Value of every company comes from equity and businesses activity. Equity can be liquidated. Business activity produces profit.

The biggest misconception in the world of cryptocurrencies is that they are assets—specifically, a monetary type of asset.

I love it when some guy suddenly finds inspiration and sees what nobody before has seen, unfortunately in most cases, just like in this one he has seen things that aren't actually there.

Obviously, these numerical updates do not represent transfers of an asset, unlike with shares and fiat currencies. That's simply because a person whose number has increased does not, as a result, have the ability to realize greater benefit from a resource within the cryptocurrency system. In the case of shares or fiat currencies, such a person would be able to receive a larger dividend from a company or more goods, services, or labor from bank debtors.

Since cutting down your theory to a simpler version.
Since transfers on the blockchain don't represent a transfer of assets it means you can transfer all your coins to my address and then magically you can still use your coins or buy something with them while at the same time, I will not be able to realize a greater benefit how you say from receiving those coins. Now, do you realize how dumb this is?

Moreover, based on your same there, what happens when such a "numeric update" invoces someone receiving fiat for it, since fiat transfer is always an action of receiving further benefit how could it not be a benefit in getting coins? You've just described a paradox of turning value into the void by getting value from the void.

Now normally I would ask you to send your coins to my address since this is not a transfer of value but I have a feeling you don't have one satoshi.

You people live in such a fantasy world this is hilarious. There are no coins. Nothing is transferred. Only log exists that is updated via "wallet"  apps which manifests as a change of numbers associated with digital addresses. That's reality. Everything else is the product of imagination.

~Snipped

With stocks, owners can benefit from the company's profits or capital. Profits can be paid out as dividends, and capital can be liquidated or used to repurchase shares.

You made a fine argument about what determines things we can call assets. However, I have some objections. Firstly, if we're to agree that your definition of assets holds, there a lot of cryptocurrencies today will pass the test because there are hundreds of tokens if not more that incentivizes their users to hold. For example, Binance token would easily pass for an asset because aside from just benefitting from price movements, there's opportunity to earn yield. Even better, they buy back tokens from open market and burn it.

There are other examples but I'd just like to end it here before it gets lengthy. My point? Most cryptos qualify as assets even by your definition above.

No they don't qualify. Name one popular cryptocurrency where holders can get anything from the system that issues it, except the ability to update the log via their wallet apps.

[davis196]

I remember that OP has several forum threads about "crypto being a glorified spreadsheet" or "crypto being a bunch of records on servers".
I don't mind people hating on Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general. Criticism should be welcomed in the crypto community.
What I don't understand is why OP is repeating the same thing over and over again. This is a Bitcoin/cryptocurrency forum. Does he think that such forum posts will discourage other forum members into investing in crypto? OK, cryptocurrencies aren't stocks or bonds. So what? If the people want to invest in crypto, let them invest. If the whole crypto industry becomes into a giant bubble and it bursts, the people will lose their money, but that's capitalism. You have to take risks in order to make profits.

[JamesNZ]

I remember that OP has several forum threads about "crypto being a glorified spreadsheet" or "crypto being a bunch of records on servers".
I don't mind people hating on Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general. Criticism should be welcomed in the crypto community.
What I don't understand is why OP is repeating the same thing over and over again. This is a Bitcoin/cryptocurrency forum. Does he think that such forum posts will discourage other forum members into investing in crypto? OK, cryptocurrencies aren't stocks or bonds. So what? If the people want to invest in crypto, let them invest. If the whole crypto industry becomes into a giant bubble and it bursts, the people will lose their money, but that's capitalism. You have to take risks in order to make profits.

My only motivation is truth. People repeatedly spread lies by portraying this whole crypto thing as some revolutionary asset, new form of money, valuable investing, etc. But it's all just a giant pyramid scheme that is being tracked by updating a decentralized log. So, as long as people will spread lies I will continue to post the truth. Either through analogies or by literally describing what is going on, like in this topic. As you can see it's not about hating Bitcoin, as you crypo people like to say. Why would anyone hate a log?  Or the activity of updating it? It is lies what people hate.

[franky1]

its not a pyramid scheme for two reasons
1. by holding X amount of sats on a address you control and thus own, it does not involve you getting subsequent commission from recruiting people who buy coin below you EG you dont get y% of other peoples sales

2. there is no hierarchy of coin owners whom rank different commission depending on rank

as for is bitcoin a asset:
it is an asset as it is not based on debt(liability vs asset), it is an asset because it has limited supply, it is an asset because it has function, and thus demand and desire
the point of having addresses that follow rules of transfer control based on a secret key used to sign the transfer means there is ownership proof that only the secret key owner can sign for. so its not just a unit of measure database, its a ledger of proof of ownership

jamesNZ still does not understand how crypto currencies work as he just thinks its a database of numbers. he does not understand the concepts that the ledger includes the transfer and ownership proofs

[JamesNZ]

its not a pyramid scheme for two reasons
1. by holding X amount of sats on a address you control and thus own, it does not involve you getting subsequent commission from recruiting people who buy coin below you EG you dont get y% of other peoples sales

2. there is no hierarchy of coin owners whom rank different commission depending on rank

as for is bitcoin a asset:
it is an asset as it is not based on debt(liability vs asset), it is an asset because it has limited supply, it is an asset because it has function, and thus demand and desire
the point of having addresses that follow rules of transfer control based on a secret key used to sign the transfer means there is ownership proof that only the secret key owner can sign for. so its not just a unit of measure database, its a ledger of proof of ownership

jamesNZ still does not understand how crypto currencies work as he just thinks its a database of numbers. he does not understand the concepts that the ledger includes the transfer and ownership proofs

There are various pyramid schemes. But what they all have in common is that you give an asset to someone without they giving you any asset in return. And then you wait for other people to join that scheme and give you some asset otherwise you cannot get an asset back. An asset is of course a resource from which you can benefit. You crypto holders own no such resource. All you own is the ability to update that decentralized log. When you give a car or a hundred thousand dollars to someone, that's giving an asset and getting no asset in return. What you get in return is the ability to change numbers (like +2/-2) via updating that log with your wallet apps.

So it's a modern day pyramid scheme.

[franky1]

its not a pyramid scheme for two reasons
1. by holding X amount of sats on a address you control and thus own, it does not involve you getting subsequent commission from recruiting people who buy coin below you EG you dont get y% of other peoples sales

2. there is no hierarchy of coin owners whom rank different commission depending on rank

as for is bitcoin a asset:
it is an asset as it is not based on debt(liability vs asset), it is an asset because it has limited supply, it is an asset because it has function, and thus demand and desire
the point of having addresses that follow rules of transfer control based on a secret key used to sign the transfer means there is ownership proof that only the secret key owner can sign for. so its not just a unit of measure database, its a ledger of proof of ownership

jamesNZ still does not understand how crypto currencies work as he just thinks its a database of numbers. he does not understand the concepts that the ledger includes the transfer and ownership proofs

There are various pyramid schemes. But what they all have in common is that you give an asset to someone without they giving you any asset in return. And then you wait for other people to join that scheme and give you some asset otherwise you cannot get an asset back. An asset is of course a resource from which you can benefit. You crypto holders own no such resource. All you own is the ability to update that decentralized log. When you give a car or a hundred thousand dollars to someone, that's giving an asset and getting no asset in return. What you get in return is the ability to change numbers (like +2/-2) via updating that log with your wallet apps.

So it's a modern day pyramid scheme.

you have no clue
thats not even how pyramid schemes work

when you transfer a car there is a car registration database of ownership.. crypto has this too, learn more about it. its not just a log of licence plates on the car registry.. its not just a log of numbers in crypto

[JamesNZ]

its not a pyramid scheme for two reasons
1. by holding X amount of sats on a address you control and thus own, it does not involve you getting subsequent commission from recruiting people who buy coin below you EG you dont get y% of other peoples sales

2. there is no hierarchy of coin owners whom rank different commission depending on rank

as for is bitcoin a asset:
it is an asset as it is not based on debt(liability vs asset), it is an asset because it has limited supply, it is an asset because it has function, and thus demand and desire
the point of having addresses that follow rules of transfer control based on a secret key used to sign the transfer means there is ownership proof that only the secret key owner can sign for. so its not just a unit of measure database, its a ledger of proof of ownership

jamesNZ still does not understand how crypto currencies work as he just thinks its a database of numbers. he does not understand the concepts that the ledger includes the transfer and ownership proofs

There are various pyramid schemes. But what they all have in common is that you give an asset to someone without they giving you any asset in return. And then you wait for other people to join that scheme and give you some asset otherwise you cannot get an asset back. An asset is of course a resource from which you can benefit. You crypto holders own no such resource. All you own is the ability to update that decentralized log. When you give a car or a hundred thousand dollars to someone, that's giving an asset and getting no asset in return. What you get in return is the ability to change numbers (like +2/-2) via updating that log with your wallet apps.

So it's a modern day pyramid scheme.

you have no clue
thats not even how pyramid schemes work

when you transfer a car there is a car registration database of ownership.. crypto has this too, learn more about it. its not just a log of licence plates on the car registry.. its not just a log of numbers in crypto

Yes sure. Crypto has a record that you own the ability to change numbers associated with digital addresses. While a person to whom you transferred an asset (the car) has a resource that can provide them benefit, such as moving people and goods from one place to another.

[PrivacyG]

You people live in such a fantasy world this is hilarious. There are no coins. Nothing is transferred. Only log exists that is updated via "wallet"  apps which manifests as a change of numbers associated with digital addresses. That's reality. Everything else is the product of imagination.

I can invent a Trading Card game called Sausages.  It does not mean we are trading edible sausages.  Bitcoins are called 'Coins' simply because you only need 10 IQ points to understand there is no need for an entire new language written for things that can simply be terms we already understand.  Everybody knows what Coins are.  Things you can move around and pay with.  Now go back to the Card Game I told you about.  Who the fuck would know what I am on about if I tell them I have three sausages to trade.

I find it baffling that you believe we all believe these are some sort of physical, real Coins we are moving around.  Of course they do not exist, they are digital.  But again, it takes a little bit of IQ to understand that.  And you do not seem to be among those who do.

[JamesNZ]

You people live in such a fantasy world this is hilarious. There are no coins. Nothing is transferred. Only log exists that is updated via "wallet"  apps which manifests as a change of numbers associated with digital addresses. That's reality. Everything else is the product of imagination.

I can invent a Trading Card game called Sausages.  It does not mean we are trading edible sausages.  Bitcoins are called 'Coins' simply because you only need 10 IQ points to understand there is no need for an entire new language written for things that can simply be terms we already understand.  Everybody knows what Coins are.  Things you can move around and pay with.  Now go back to the Card Game I told you about.  Who the fuck would know what I am on about if I tell them I have three sausages to trade.

I find it baffling that you believe we all believe these are some sort of physical, real Coins we are moving around.  Of course they do not exist, they are digital.  But again, it takes a little bit of IQ to understand that.  And you do not seem to be among those who do.

Sure, everyone knows that coins are tangible discs that can be moved around. That's precisely why I'm saying you're living in a fantasy world. You're using apps to change numbers associated with digital addresses, but claiming to move around something. That's a denial of reality, an escape into fantasy, and living in a dream world. I simply can't understand what's wrong with you crypto people.

[stwenhao]

You're using apps to change numbers associated with digital addresses, but claiming to move around something.

In traditional banking systems, you are also using some bank's app "to change numbers associated with digital addresses". And they are also "claiming to move around something". And it works, until it doesn't, and suddenly, there is a need of "second bailout for banks". That's why Bitcoin was invented: we don't need "bailouts", because coins are simply worth more or less, depending on the outside world.

Does anyone bother checking the trust / feedback of people before replying to their posts.

No, because people are paid, based on the number of posts they write. So, by writing an obvious reply, that "2+2=4", you can fill your quota easier on such topics.

[JamesNZ]

You're using apps to change numbers associated with digital addresses, but claiming to move around something.

In traditional banking systems, you are also using some bank's app "to change numbers associated with digital addresses". And they are also "claiming to move around something". And it works, until it doesn't, and suddenly, there is a need of "second bailout for banks". That's why Bitcoin was invented: we don't need "bailouts", because coins are simply worth more or less, depending on the outside world.

Does anyone bother checking the trust / feedback of people before replying to their posts.

No, because people are paid, based on the number of posts they write. So, by writing an obvious reply, that "2+2=4", you can fill your quota easier on such topics.

In traditional banking systems you are using bank apps to change the ownership of an asset, with numbers representing its quantity. In the cryptocurrency systems you're updating logs of pyramid-style schemes by changing numbers. There's no asset involved. Thinking that an activity log of a pyramid scheme is an alternative to an asset is craziness of a high order.

[DaveF]

In traditional banking systems you are using bank apps to change the ownership of an asset, with numbers representing its quantity. In the cryptocurrency systems you're updating logs of pyramid-style schemes by changing numbers. There's no asset involved. Thinking that an activity log of a pyramid scheme is an alternative to an asset is craziness of a high order.

You seem to be confused BANKS are the pyramid scheme.

Banks can and frequently do use fractional reserve banking: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fractionalreservebanking.asp
You can't do that with crypto, you can't send or use what you don't have.

If you hate crypto so much, why don't you leave? Or is this the only joy you get while being a troll living in your moms basement.

-Dave