Ledger Live Update and Firmware Update?

[Meuserna]

You have a fixation with other people.  Comment after comment, you ask about other people.  Other people, other people, other people.

You've been given the facts.  In my replies, I also linked to sources so you could read more, though I suspect you did not.  Instead, you ask again and again about other people.  Other people, other people, other people.

Other people stuck with Voyager, even after there were warning signs, and they got screwed.

Other people stuck with FTX, even after there were warning signs, and they got screwed.

Other people stuck with Terra and Luna, even after there were warning signs, and they got screwed.

Other people buy into rug pull after rug pull after rug pull, even when the warning signs are crystal clear, and they get screwed.

Other people ignore obvious signs that Ledger cannot be trusted.  Time will tell their fate.

Many youtubers still push Ledger devices because they only care about getting views.  Others are getting free devices from Ledger, and I strongly suspect some are paid shills.

I assume you are an adult, not a child, though do correct me if I'm wrong about that assumption.

I assume you are an adult.

Make an adult decision.

Only you can do that.

You've been given the facts countless times.

[ABCbits]

The box you posted, what ledger device is that?  I thought back then it was said ledger was open sourced.  So they said they were closed source the entire time even back when the 2 most popular wallets was ledger or trezor?

Secure element used by Ledger always has been closed source.

The thing is if they said they were closed sourced back then, wouldn't most people not use ledger?  Or you mean they said they were closed source but only when the recover news happen, they are actually closed source and not open source?

That's naive thinking. Outside this forum and other few privacy/open-source oriented community, most people doesn't care whether digital product they use is closed source or not. Should i remind you that Windows (a closed source OS) remains most popular OS for desktop and notebook?

[jerry0]

What about people that put their coins in ledger a while back just put it in a safe deposit box or whatnot?  So someone like that who did that years ago and do it with the nano ledger s might not even know about this then.  So unless you check or read online, how would people even know about this? 


If ledger device always has been closed source, then why was it even recommended so much like trezor then?  I recall open source is what you want right?  So if ledger always been closed source, why everyone here recommended ledger then?


So you are saying people who are still talking good about ledger on youtube on shills but they aren't using it anymore? 

[Meuserna]

So you are saying people who are still talking good about ledger on youtube on shills but they aren't using it anymore?  

YES.

They're shilling for clicks and views.  Some of them are probably paid for reviews.  Many of them do reviews to get free hardware.  They may use Ledger for testing, but probably not to secure their real coins.  And some of them are gadget guys who like the cool looking devices but don't understand the security of the devices they review.  Even among the few youtubers who are honest, most of them are reluctant to call out the dangers of what Ledger is doing because they will get attacked online for doing so.

How much more crystal clear can we be?

Again: Stop asking about other people.  Start thinking about the safety of your own Bitcoin.  Enough of the "but what about the people who" nonsense.  Stop asking about other people.  Start thinking about the safety of your own Bitcoin.

Good grief.

[jerry0]

So which users on youtube are honest then where they use to support ledger but now say they no longer support it?  Very few if any?  I checked and it doesn't seem like that many people who use to talk good about ledger back then are talking bad about them now?


So it took you many months thinking about it when the recover came out.  Then decided to move to another wallet.  At any point during the time you were thinking about it, did you think your coins were at risk after the recover announcement?  But you figure if something happens, it won't be that soon after that recover annoucement?


Now if you had to use your ledger device still, did you use a nano ledger plus or the X or another one?  If you had to continue using it and still on with old firmware that doesn't have recover, you would strongly recommend against updating the firmware right?  So during those few months you were thinking about it, did you send or receive any crypto to your ledger anytime?  So if one doesn't plan to send or receive crypto anytime soon but want to keep using their nano ledger for holding, then just don't update firmware then?  Ledger live I already updated it last time.

[Meuserna]

So it took you many months thinking about it when the recover came out.  Then decided to move to another wallet.  

It took me several months because I decided to start over from scratch.  I could have just bought a Trezor or a Blockstream Jade, created a new seed and moved my coins there.  Done.

But instead, I decided to spend time learning as much as I could about everything involved with securing a wallet.

I researched multisig and best practices for multisig backups.

I researched things like BIP85.

I researched derivation paths, accounts, Native Segwit vs Taproot, etc etc etc.

I researched features that I wanted from a hardware wallet.  I'm not saying what I wanted should be what you want, but here was my list:

Fully open source.

Encrypted Seed QR.

Passphrase QR.

The ability to use the device airgapped.

The ability to use the device stateless.

Plaintext QR in and out.

A large screen, in order to easily see everything in full detail.

Etc etc etc.

EDITED to add:  Again, I'm not saying you should want those things.  I'm saying, I started from square one and said to myself "Since I have to make a change, what else should I be changing, and what else should I know?"  I don't view learning as something to be afraid of.  I view it as something that makes me smarter, and in this case, safer.

At any point during the time you were thinking about it, did you think your coins were at risk after the recover announcement?

The day Ledger's key extraction scheme was outed, I immediately stopped using my Ledger devices.  Immediately.  I no longer considered my Ledger hardware safe.  It was easy for me to stop using Ledger hardware since I don't spend Bitcoin.  I buy and hold long term.

I also stopped using Ledger Live.  That piece of trash has tons of trackers.  It's not safe if you care about your privacy.

But you figure if something happens, it won't be that soon after that recover annoucement?

Right.  I've already explained this.

When Ledger's key extraction code gets hacked, the hackers aren't going to drain wallets right away because they're not going to want to let Ledger know they've been hacked.  The hackers are going to want to keep the exploit a secret while they steal as many keys as they can, because the moment Ledger finds out they've been hacked, Ledger can start working on a patch, which would stop hackers from stealing more keys.

Reread that paragraph if you didn't understand what I just said.

Hackers won't want Ledger to patch the buggy code.  Hackers will want to steal as many users keys as possible before draining wallets, because when they start draining wallets Ledger will find out they've been hacked.

When Ledger gets hacked, or when YOU get hacked, you're not going to know.  In fact, there's no way for you to know if hackers already have your keys.  I doubt that they do, but since there's no way to know, it means you're not safe using Ledger hardware or software, and you're not safe using a seed that has ever been used on Ledger hardware or software.

I cannot believe we need to have this conversation.

Ledger hardware is not safe.

Ledger code is not safe.

Ledger admitted they can't prove their code has no backdoors.  They can't prove it because their code isn't open.  Open source wallets easily prove their code is safe by saying "Here's the code.  Every single line."  Ledger can't do that.  Ledger can't be trusted.

Dude.  We've gone out of our way to try to help you be safe.  We're not shilling for a different company's stuff.  We're saying Ledger isn't safe.  Move your coins to a seed protected by a device that IS safe.

[Pmalek]

If ledger device always has been closed source, then why was it even recommended so much like trezor then?  I recall open source is what you want right?  So if ledger always been closed source, why everyone here recommended ledger then?

In the past you only had two big hardware wallet manufacturers. Those were Trezor and Ledger. If someone owned a hardware wallet back then, 9/10 times they owned one of those two brands. Ledger is still the most sold hardware wallet in the world, despite everything that happened in the past. But other companies are making strides as well.

Despite its closed-source nature, Ledger was recommended because they were good at what they were doing. Then came the Nano X with its many battery problems. Then came the hacking incident, where sensitive customer data was leaked both from their servers and a 3rd-party marketing agency. Then they started lying and playing it down as not being that big of a deal. Now we have the Ledger Recover fiasco and an ex-employee who supposedly still had access to company accounts for no valid reasons. Those are just the biggest concerns. There are other smaller issues with this company.

When you look at all that, no sensible and well-intentioned person can recommend this wallet to others. But none of this should be of any concern to you because you will keep using Ledger no matter what happens. Hopefully, your lack of sense won't come back and bite you in the ass. If it does, it will be your fault.

[PrivacyG]

Despite its closed-source nature, Ledger was recommended because they were good at what they were doing. Then came the Nano X with its many battery problems. Then came the hacking incident, where sensitive customer data was leaked both from their servers and a 3rd-party marketing agency. Then they started lying and playing it down as not being that big of a deal. Now we have the Ledger Recover fiasco and an ex-employee who supposedly still had access to company accounts for no valid reasons. Those are just the biggest concerns. There are other smaller issues with this company.

But, YG advertised Ledger in one of his Music Videos so Ledger must be a cool thing if gangsters use it.

Jerry is such a difficult person.  I do honestly think Ledger is still being used by a LOT of people, but mostly for Shit Coins that for the most part end up becoming worthless anyway.  This is pretty much all Ledger is about right now.  A tool to handle Shit Coins.  And just like you may get Scammed holding a Shit Coin that is heavily Centralized or built to fail at some point in the future as soon as the Developers get Rich enough, Ledger is in the same boat.  It is only seemingly bound to fail continuously and constantly.

The truth is, there are other ways to handle Shit Coins that are safer but less convenient.  You could run Full Nodes of some of them if they have their own Blockchain, or if they are Ethereum Tokens then just use a Secure Ethereum Wallet and start from there.  But this is at the cost of convenience.  Now it is completely and entirely up to you which is a priority for the Coins you own.

Trezor is nice and all.  But it does not support many Shit Coins.  So make sure the model you are planning to purchase supports the Altcoins you want to hold.

[jerry0]

If ledger knows it isn't safe, why are they not letting everyone know about it or say we recommend you move your coins then?  They are still advertising new products.  If they say okay we think there is risk so either go to another device or buy a new one... say this new ledger device is safe... then wouldn't people feel more comfortable than if someone was to happen?

Ledger and Trezor was the most popular.  But back then trezor had several security issues so people say go with ledger. 


So what wallet is used to hold most coins that ledger supports then?  Trezor 3?  All these other wallets doesn't seem that big name yet so I thought you should always go with a big name.  The thing is I have a tough time thinking ledger thinks they are unsafe. 

[Meuserna]

If ledger knows it isn't safe, why are they not letting everyone know about it or say we recommend you move your coins then?

Ledger is making money off it.  Ledger is selling key extraction as a subscription service.

Here's what Ledger's CEO said about Ledger Recover:

"You now have an API in your firmware to extract seeds."

--CoinKite CEO Rodolfo Novak

"If, for you, your privacy is of the utmost importance, please do not use that product, for sure."

--Ledger CEO Pascal Gauthier

"That product" is Ledger Recover.  Ledger's own CEO recommended not using it, but what he didn't mention is that it's baked into their firmware, which means the code to extract your keys is on YOUR hardware even if you don't subscribe to their scammy service, even if you don't use it.  The quote is from the What Bitcoin Did podcast.  Here's the video:

https://youtu.be/M3VjQUcyZSY?t=2342

Ledger is ignoring the dangers of adding an API for key extraction to the firmware for their hardware wallets.  They're ignoring it because they're greedy.

Long term, Ledger wants to sell devices for $150 & then make an additional $120 a year from suckers who subscribe to Recover.

[jerry0]

Okay so he says if privacy is important to you, do not use the product anymore.  But what about people who used it for a while until now then?  Like you used ledger live the whole time until you stopped when they announced recover. 



The thing is that line that person said, it mentions privacy.  You say it's with the firmware.  If that is true, why are there still people supporting ledger then?  It certainly isn't lot most ledger users that are saying bad things against them... but you say these are people who don't know that much. 



Has there been any case of someone getting hacked who subscribed to recover?  What percentage of ledger users do you think subscribe to it?  Got to be 5% or less right?  The thing is do most experts all agree pretty much ledger isn't safe?  I just don't get that is how everyone feels though.

[Pmalek]

Trezor is nice and all.  But it does not support many Shit Coins.  So make sure the model you are planning to purchase supports the Altcoins you want to hold.

You quoted me in this reply but I feel like these two sentences above are more of a general warning or perhaps directed towards Jerry. Anyways, he has no plans to move away from Ledger. He made that abundantly clear. Thus, there is no point in trying to tech him anything new.

If ledger knows it isn't safe, why are they not letting everyone know about it or say we recommend you move your coins then?

It's like talking to a little child trapped in a grown up's body. I assume you are grown up.

...If that is true, why are there still people supporting ledger then?  It certainly isn't lot most ledger users that are saying bad things against them... but you say these are people who don't know that much.

Because the world is full with people like you. Incapable of thinking and making the right decision. Regardless of how long you will be a bitcoin/crypto holder, you will never learn to think for yourself. You will never learn to read a simple piece of text, understand it, and not ask your standard stupid questions, which prove you didn't understand anything. That's just reality.

[jerry0]

So this is a question to everyone here.  If someone wants to stick with ledger, do you recommend them to update the firmware or use old firmware then?  If they are just a holder and don't plan to do transactions for a while, don't update the firmware.  But if someone is going to do a few transactions total, do you still recommend against updating the firmware to the one that has the recover?

[Meuserna]

So this is a question to everyone here.  If someone wants to stick with ledger, do you recommend them to update the firmware or use old firmware then?

NO.

If they are just a holder and don't plan to do transactions for a while, don't update the firmware.  But if someone is going to do a few transactions total, do you still recommend against updating the firmware to the one that has the recover?

YES.

It's time for mods to lock this thread.  The OP is asking the same question again and again.  He ignores the responses and then asks the same question again.

[Pmalek]

So this is a question to everyone here.

jerry0 no one else wants to talk to you because of the way you are. Haven't you noticed that? Your incapability to learn anything and grasp meanings has pushed everyone away. What you are left with are very few people who are also getting frustrated by you, trying to teach you something. Keep it up, and they will disappear as well, and you will have to find another place to ask whether or not you should update your Ledger every few months.

[Z-tight]

It's time for mods to lock this thread.  The OP is asking the same question again and again.  He ignores the responses and then asks the same question again.

That is how it has been for a very long time now, even the neutral feedbacks on the op's trust page is evidence of that. I really don't know what could be the problem, if it is comprehension or trolling, hard to tell honestly. However, i don't think mods will lock the topic, the best thing to do is to ignore op's question, or you take the route that so many members have taken and that is to put jerry0 into your ignore list, and i feel that's the right thing to do.

[jerry0]

The reason why I don't want to move from ledger is because I don't want to move my coins from ledger.  I'm concerned there would be issues when sending to a new hardware wallet.  Now if you send coins from ledger to trezor, yes you are going to test a small amount first.  But then you have to make sure that everything in that trezor is good to go before you send everything.


So how would you do it then?  Send a tiny amount from ledger to trezor.  Then reset the trezor.  Then enter seed in trezor to make sure it shows that amount of coin right?  Then you send everything from ledger to trezor or do you do a small amount again before doing everything?  Should you wait a few days before you send the rest of it?


The thing is I'm comfortable with the ledger.  If i use something else and then send the coin and something goes wrong, that is what I want to avoid.  I read some people say how coins on ledger are safe and you doing so many things that is not necessary could cause mistakes to happen.

[Meuserna]

I don't know a polite way to ask this, so I apologize if I'm being rude.  I promise, that is not my intention.

Do you have a learning disability?  If you do, it might be helpful to let us know how we can better communicate with you, because clearly there's something else going on here, other than you just wanting to stick with a product you're already familiar with.

You're just asking the same questions again and again without ever adding any context whatsoever.

[jerry0]

I don't want to move crypto from the ledger because when I set it up a while back, I didn't want to do it again.  I felt comfortable with ledger.


How did you all send the crypto from ledger to a new wallet like the trezor?  You send a tiny amount to trezor and then reset the trezor to make sure that tiny amount of crypto is there.  Then you send everything on the 2nd send? 


So you all feel comfortable doing that?  Or you wait a while before you send the rest of it?  The issue is someone can make a mistake going from one wallet to another. 

[Meuserna]

How did you all send the crypto from ledger to a new wallet like the trezor?  You send a tiny amount to trezor and then reset the trezor to make sure that tiny amount of crypto is there.  Then you send everything on the 2nd send? 

It's the exact same process as sending Bitcoin anywhere.

Since your seed phrase has been used on a Ledger device, I would consider it to be possibly compromised.  Maybe it's fine?  Since there's no way to know, there's no reason to take that risk.  You could just buy a Trezor and restore your seed phrase on it, and your Trezor would rebuild your same wallet & find your coins where they are, but since your seed was used on a Ledger with closed source firmware and key extraction ability, you can't prove your seed never left your device.  That's why you're better off starting over with a seed phrase that never touched Ledger hardware.

I hope you understand that your coins are not on your Ledger.  Your coins are on the blockchain.  Your Ledger holds your keys.

My advice is this:  Buy a Trezor.  Play with it for a while to learn how it works.  Set up a new seed phrase on it, and back up your new seed phrase properly by writing it down on paper and making a metal backup.  Spend time learning how to use your Trezor.  Don't rush.  It's not hard, but it makes sense to take your time, because why not?

Then, when you're ready...  as a test, send a little Bitcoin from the wallet on your Ledger to an address from the wallet on your Trezor.  Confirm everything worked as expected.  When you receive the coins you sent to your Trezor wallet as a test, you're set.  Send the rest whenever you want.

Last, but not least, you might want to consider keeping your Ledger as a decoy wallet.  To do this, after you've moved all of your coins off the seed on the Ledger, wipe out the Ledger and create another new seed specifically to use as a decoy wallet.  Buy some sort of junk altcoin, like maybe a bunch of Doge or Shib, and send them to an address on the Ledger wallet.  Then unplug the Ledger & put a post-it note on it, with a note implying that it's your super important stuff.

If I thought your technical abilities were stronger, I'd recommend getting a SeedSigner instead of a Trezor, because with a SeedSigner you're not using any company's stuff.  Maybe check out some videos on SeedSigner before buying a Trezor.  It's easy to use.  With SeedSigner, you'd need a companion wallet app.  BlueWallet is free and open source, and EASY to use.