Tornado Cash co founder at risk of getting jailed up to 45 years in prison

[Botnake]

Tornado Cash is a crypto-mixing platform co-founded by Roman Storm. Similar to a typical mixer, its purpose is to provide transaction anonymity. However, regulators see it differently, claiming it’s often used for money laundering.

If Storm and his co-founder Roman Semenov are found guilty of such violations, they could face up to 45 years in prison. It’s tough, especially when you’re just a developer trying to help the community maintain privacy for their transactions, but the authorities interpret it differently. This is why knowing the law is so important. Like what the forum did, they banned mixers to protect the community and prevent any potential issues in the future.

I'm not sure if the site is still accessible to some, but it seems like access varies by region.

I tried to check it out to get an idea of how it looks:
https://tornado.ws/
https://tornado.cash/ (not accessible)

read for more information ; https://cointelegraph.com/news/tornado-cash-roman-storm-trial-december-dismissal-bid-denied

[cryptoaddictchie]

This is why knowing the law is so important. Like what the forum did, they banned mixers to protect the community and prevent any potential issues in the future.

This explained all current signature campaign are exchanges and gambling sites only. Theymos had no choice but to ban mixers signature in here with regards to the previous issues. Well tornado cash seems pretty intense though. I wonder if there are still active mixers working and still alive after some fud on security than privacy related.

[franky1]

If Storm and his co-founder Roman Semenov are found guilty of such violations, they could face up to 45 years in prison. It’s tough, especially when you’re just a developer

the funny thing is people that pretend they know the law to defend the guy stupidly repeat the "just a developer" insanity

he is not charged with being a developer.. he is being charged with knowingly receiving income from the service he is involved in that knowingly allowed money laundering

if you want to protect yourself from the law, actually avoid being directly involved in laundering and receiving income from facilitating it..
he directly received income from facilitating laundering and knew it. simple as that

[FinneysTrueVision]

Tornado Cash is an immutable smart contract so anybody can still use it, although you might have to change your wallet configuration to access it because it is blocked by many RPC providers. Tornado Cash will continue to exist as long as Ethereum remains decentralized. The fact that it can’t be shut down by its creators even if they wanted to, shows how weak the case is against the developers who were arrested. They have no ability to control who uses it and how they use it. Even if a specific domain stops working, there will be other means to access the mixer.

[Plaguedeath]

This explained all current signature campaign are exchanges and gambling sites only. Theymos had no choice but to ban mixers signature in here with regards to the previous issues. Well tornado cash seems pretty intense though. I wonder if there are still active mixers working and still alive after some fud on security than privacy related.

Do you think exchanges and gambling sites are actually legal? they're in grey area too, same to mixer.

A real no KYC exchange will allow anyone to use their exchange including criminals, that's why Germany seizes 47 exchanges.

Most of crypto casinos aren't legal because they didn't get license or authorize from the country they allow to gamble, not to mention there are countries where gambling is forbidden, but the casino accept those countries.

[Botnake]

If Storm and his co-founder Roman Semenov are found guilty of such violations, they could face up to 45 years in prison. It’s tough, especially when you’re just a developer

the funny thing is people that pretend they know the law to defend the guy stupidly repeat the "just a developer" insanity

he is not charged with being a developer.. he is being charged with knowingly receiving income from the service he is involved in that knowingly allowed money laundering

if you want to protect yourself from the law, actually avoid being directly involved in laundering and receiving income from facilitating it..
he directly received income from facilitating laundering and knew it. simple as that

I’m just sharing the developer’s side of the story and his claim.

He argued that Tornado Cash was an "immutable" protocol that he couldn’t control .
https://cryptobriefing.com/tornado-cash-dev-faces-trial/

That’s the standard with mixers; even the owners usually don’t know if the crypto passing through their platform is from a criminal source or being laundered. Their main purpose is to promote anonymity in the community, which is something a lot of us want. And, naturally, they earn fees from providing this service.

However, as we’ve often seen in cases involving mixers, the government typically claims that they are used for money laundering.

[franky1]

However, as we’ve often seen in cases involving mixers, the government typically claims that they are used for money laundering.

what if i told you that many 3letter-agencies put agents in sanctioned countries or regions states that require services to follow rules, adn the agents themselves perform these transactions and see if the service reacts or just performs the payments..
honeypot traps are a known thing.. even in the days of the NYbitlicence, there were NYC agents making payments to services without NYBitlicence and then charging them

but in regards the the tornado saga. the 'developer' done alot more then develop and was involved in alot more than coding, knowing what he was doing and taking a commission/fee from it is the crime.. not the coding part.

..
its like a person that makes suitcases, uses one of his own suitcases to transport a bomb, he knows there is a bomb in his suitcase and he is getting paid to transport it somewhere.. him then claiming he just made the suitcase does not dissolve the direct involvement of him being paid to transport a bomb.. trying to play ignorant that he just makes suitcases even when he got caught directly involved in facilitating a crime using his own invention wont help his case, he needs to concentrate on the actual charges not the social media stupidity pre-tense of "just a developer"

he needs to explain his income, source of income and his communication with customers wanting to use his particular service

[cryptoaddictchie]

Do you think exchanges and gambling sites are actually legal? they're in grey area too, same to mixer.

Some exchanges I think is legal for gambling sites no idea how legal it is or lets just say it wasnt. But the difference is Government might have some permission on those exchanges while mixer doesnt. Why do you think its banned in forum? These are in grey area too but I believe they are more regulated than mixers.

Well in our country some gambling sites are actually owned by the government so somehow its regulated.

[Botnake]

[...]]]

good argument, i totally agree with it..

but in regards the the tornado saga. the 'developer' done alot more then develop and was involved in alot more than coding, knowing what he was doing and taking a commission/fee from it is the crime.. not the coding part.

He’s probably doing that, but as for the case, I just reported what he claimed. Well, they were aware of the reputation of mixers from the start, and it’s no secret that they attract money launderers, so it’s clear why regulators are keeping a close eye on them. Yet, he still chose to get into this business.

If his defense is honest, then it falls under "ignorance of the law excuses no one," and he could be facing a 45-year jail term. I’m not siding with the mixer, but I do see its value in promoting anonymity. However, the weakness lies in its potential use for money laundering, as this case and others have shown.

I'm curious though... has any mixer ever won a case against the government? If none have, then we might already know how this case will end.

[hd49728]

Tornado Cash is a crypto-mixing platform co-founded by Roman Storm. Similar to a typical mixer, its purpose is to provide transaction anonymity. However, regulators see it differently, claiming it’s often used for money laundering.

If Storm and his co-founder Roman Semenov are found guilty of such violations, they could face up to 45 years in prison. It’s tough, especially when you’re just a developer trying to help the community maintain privacy for their transactions, but the authorities interpret it differently.

This is tough and unfair but it's what government do with their power and they are free to interpret their Act, Laws. It is similar to forum admins, moderators as described in this rule.

23. When deciding if a user has broken the rules, the staff have the right to follow their interpretation of the rules.[e]

Government does it more arbitrary than forum admins and moderators because they have more power and benefit to defend. This arrest like other arrests against mixers' founders are simply unfair, because if government does the same with other things like gun, knife, they will arrest many gun producers, knife producers with same reasons.

We have to ask, why do government apply double standard against mixers?

Like what the forum did, they banned mixers to protect the community and prevent any potential issues in the future.

If anyone get problem with mixers in the forum, if theymos did not ban mixers here, it's theymos who is the head admin of bitcointalk forum. Campaign managers, campaign participants can have problems too but the head admin will be responsible firstly.

[Botnake]

We have to ask, why do government apply double standard against mixers?

Their pre-judgment might seem unfair, but they’ll never convict someone or an entity without evidence since that could backfire on them. In this case, they surely have evidence of money laundering happening on the platform founded by those individuals. It’s possible the founder wasn’t aware of the money laundering or is just playing dumb. But at the end of the day, solid evidence is what the court needs to convict and potentially lock them up for years.

[fruktik]

It is offensive and annoying that some units of society do not understand the benefit that these people brought. There is no common vision of the whole picture. It will be funny if after some time such laws are repealed, and people have already suffered. A very "fair" state.

The most interesting thing is that paper money was also "laundered", and then suddenly crypto became guilty. Well, naturally, who else can be found to blame?

I opened the site using VPN:

[Trêvoid]

As developers like Roman Storm and Roman Semenov have argued, Tornado Cash operates as an immutable smart contract. This means the creators themselves don’t have the ability to control how it's used or stop the platform, even if they wanted to. That being said, the key issue seems to be the claim that they knowingly profited from the proceeds of money laundering. This is where the legal trouble starts because the authorities are not simply prosecuting them for writing code but for knowingly benefiting from illegal activities facilitated through their platform.

To address this from a broader perspective: mixers are tools, and like any tool, they can be used for good or bad. However, when dealing with something like cryptocurrency, which governments are still learning to regulate, privacy tools are in a grey area, especially when used in ways that undermine the financial systems governments aim to protect.

Interestingly, there are ongoing efforts to support the legal defense of these developers. The WeWantJusticeDAO project has set up a Legal Defense Fund to support Tornado Cash developers Alexey Pertsev and Roman Storm, who are facing these legal battles.

You can check out the website for more details and to donate: wewantjusticedao.org.

[Ziskinberg]

This is the actual case;

Tornado Cash allegedly laundered over $1 billion, including funds from North Korea.

And USA are not friends with North Korea....

[FinneysTrueVision]

but in regards the the tornado saga. the 'developer' done alot more then develop and was involved in alot more than coding, knowing what he was doing and taking a commission/fee from it is the crime.. not the coding part.

I don’t believe there is a fee for using Tornado Cash. The developers were funded by private investors, individual donors and also from the governance token they created. The only time users paid a fee was if they chose to use a relayer to withdraw their funds. The relayers were run by independent third parties, not the developers.

“They know what they are doing” can be said about other privacy projects. Monero is often characterized as being a tool intended to help facilitate criminal activity. Neither Monero nor Tornado Cash were created for those purposes. We can’t just start depriving people of privacy because there is a possibility that somebody who is considered by a government to be a bad person might benefit from it.

And USA are not friends with North Korea....

You can be the most murderous regime on the planet and nobody will go to jail or get sanctioned as long as you are a US ally. Politicians don’t get accused of bribery when Israel does the bribing. This is not law and order, it is hypocrisy.

[mindrust]

The govs are trying to accomplish the impossible. As long as there are decentralized platforms and anonymous crypto currencies around, people can do whatever they like and nobody will know about it. Every once in a while the gov catches some guy to make an example of him but it is a small drop in the ocean of crypto. Just because they caught tornado cash dev, did money laundering stop? No, they figured out some other way instead of using tornado.

[Natalim]

The govs are trying to accomplish the impossible. As long as there are decentralized platforms and anonymous crypto currencies around, people can do whatever they like and nobody will know about it. Every once in a while the gov catches some guy to make an example of him but it is a small drop in the ocean of crypto. Just because they caught tornado cash dev, did money laundering stop? No, they figured out some other way instead of using tornado.

Of course, criminals will never run out across the world, but that’s why the government keeps hunting them down. Sometimes, it makes you wonder if they’re just disrupting crypto, since they claim to find a money-laundering trail in a mixer, then go after the developers to put them in jail. The penalties aren’t a joke either; in this case, up to 45 years, which is basically a life sentence. There’s a reason why the mixer business is highly profitable, it’s also the most risky.

It might be possible to create a mixer with the same goal of anonymity, but not fully anonymous. Why not build a mixer with an anonymous developer? It's possible, right? That way, the mixer could continue to operate while leaving the government trying to figure out how to stop it.

[Catenaccio]

Of course, criminals will never run out across the world, but that’s why the government keeps hunting them down.

Governments can not beat all criminals down, and sometimes they cooperate with criminals too.

Sometimes, it makes you wonder if they’re just disrupting crypto, since they claim to find a money-laundering trail in a mixer, then go after the developers to put them in jail. The penalties aren’t a joke either; in this case, up to 45 years, which is basically a life sentence.

Sentence against criminals is real, not joke but how governments define crime and criminals is very confusing and unclear. I don't know about laws but if banks let money laundering happen on their services, will the founder be jailed 45 years?

I only heard that these banks will have to pay fined fees to governments, not serious jail time like 45 years.

It might be possible to create a mixer with the same goal of anonymity, but not fully anonymous. Why not build a mixer with an anonymous developer? It's possible, right? That way, the mixer could continue to operate while leaving the government trying to figure out how to stop it.

Many mixers with anonymous teams but if they are not professional from beginning, their traces will leak their identity. Like ChipMixer's founder or team member was identified. You don't announce your identity does not mean you will never be found by governments.

[Natalim]

Of course, criminals will never run out across the world, but that’s why the government keeps hunting them down.

Governments can not beat all criminals down, and sometimes they cooperate with criminals too.

That's another thing but it's happening. 

Sentence against criminals is real, not joke but how governments define crime and criminals is very confusing and unclear. I don't know about laws but if banks let money laundering happen on their services, will the founder be jailed 45 years?

I only heard that these banks will have to pay fined fees to governments, not serious jail time like 45 years.

Mixers and banks are quite different. Banks are regulated, while mixers are not. If banks were to allow money laundering, they’d face serious consequences since it's easier for investigators to trace fiat transactions. Plus, banks use systems that require approval from the central bank, making it much less likely for money laundering to slip through compared to unregulated mixers.

Many mixers with anonymous teams but if they are not professional from beginning, their traces will leak their identity. Like ChipMixer's founder or team member was identified. You don't announce your identity does not mean you will never be found by governments.

I guess you're right, Chipmixer's been operating for awhile before they got seize.

[Yaunfitda]

This is why knowing the law is so important. Like what the forum did, they banned mixers to protect the community and prevent any potential issues in the future.

This explained all current signature campaign are exchanges and gambling sites only. Theymos had no choice but to ban mixers signature in here with regards to the previous issues. Well tornado cash seems pretty intense though. I wonder if there are still active mixers working and still alive after some fud on security than privacy related.

You can go and check the other community, the forum where all mixer signature campaigns are running, for sure you know this forum.

As for the number of years that the co-founder might get, doesn't make sense if you compare it to what SBF has done and yet he is getting less sentence and could be out in just a couple of years.

Maybe we can say that it's really different case, but the point is that SBF really did bad things, as compare to the Tornado cash developer who just faciliates everything and keep the basic tenant of being in crypto, that is being anonymous.