[BET] Trump or Harris 2024, Poker Player vs suchmoon

[paxmao]

What I am saying is that no electoral system is perfect, the weighed ones are not and the absolutely proportional ones are not either.

Definitely no modern day electoral system is perfect and just can't be anywhere but if am to compare the electoral system of the US to that of my own country I'll very much appreciate the US system the more in terms of the level of transparency, somewhat fairness in the entire process by the electoral body. Something we are yet to see to experience in democracies like ours.

Sure. The US elections have really matured to a level that you could believe in the electoral process to a certain degree. I don't know if there were any form of vote buying or other electoral malpractices in the just concluded election, it isn't really as alarming and open as it is done in my country. The level at which politicians disrespect the democratic process of electing political officeholders is at the peak. If it was in my country, it would not have been smooth and rancour free like we witnessed the in the United States of America yesterday. Especially as the power was taken from the ruling party and incumbent president to another candidate belonging to an opposition party. Kudos to the electoral officers and the electorates for conducting a free and fair election.

Yes and no. If your country does not offer the basic guarantees we are talking about a completely different thing, but the comments here are about the process itself, not if there is actually fraud except for one thing, how resistant is a process to fraud.

The fact that all depends of a few swing states and to what seems to be a few swing counties makes it less fraud resistant.

Otherwise, is about representing accurately the will of the majority. In the recent election, the popular vote went to Trump so no question there. But it is not always the case.

[coolcoinz]

The polls as always didn't know shit or (more likely) were manipulated. They were showing Harris lead for the most part, while in fact it was Trump that was in the lead, but CNN wouldn't admit it. No surprise there.

As for the win, I said it a few times that they're both pretty bad candidates, but out of the two Trump is better. I'd never support a socialist and a woke supporter. Harris represents all the things I despise in society. She doesn't care about freedom, what matters for her is equality. But the deal is there's no equality. If there's equality, make men have period! Wait, Tim Walz actually believes men menstruate!

Congratulations Poker Player!

[Lida93]

Definitely no modern day electoral system is perfect and just can't be anywhere but if am to compare the electoral system of the US to that of my own country I'll very much appreciate the US system the more in terms of the level of transparency, somewhat fairness in the entire process by the electoral body. Something we are yet to see to experience in democracies like ours.

Sure. The US elections have really matured to a level that you could believe in the electoral process to a certain degree.

Considering that America is seen as the promoters of democracy in the world it's important they stick practically to what they preach to the world. America election is usually one that the entire globe always beam their searchlight on due to its powerful position in the world.

I don't know if there were any form of vote buying or other electoral malpractices in the just concluded election,

There were no form of vote buying if you're referring to the $1m initiative introduced by Elon musk in support for Trump. 

it isn't really as alarming and open as it is done in my country. The level at which politicians disrespect the democratic process of electing political officeholders is at the peak. If it was in my country, it would not have been smooth and rancour free like we witnessed the in the United States of America yesterday. Especially as the power was taken from the ruling party and incumbent president to another candidate belonging to an opposition party. Kudos to the electoral officers and the electorates for conducting a free and fair election.

Seems we have similar situations  when it comes to general elections in our part's of the world. The orientation is markedly different among our politicians from those of the advanced nations and that's why we will always have elections characterised by violence and all form of electoral malpractice in broad daylight.

When the chairman of the electoral commission is appointed by the sitting president as umpire in the election, results will be compromised and that's why you'll always hardly find incumbent public office holder's like the president in our part's of the world losing any election.  I really don't know much about other previous elections before this but I think this just concluded America election  is a clear testament of how electoral processes ought to go in modern democratic societies.

[ibminer]

Congrats on the win Poker Player!

As for this election, IIWII. I've got some concerns with the house potentially going republican as well, which might hinder some of the checks & balances to keep Trump from going wild wild west.

Even if it ends up all republican, I think there are enough level-headed republicans that wouldn't let Trump go completely bat shit crazy, maybe the legal system helps.. it helped with controlling some things during his first term, I guess we'll see.

I'm still baffled the democrats wouldn't have put someone else up, they had the chance to throw anyone in against Trump, and even at the last minute, and they picked Kamala, with a clear attachment and track record with Biden. Similarly, I really wish the Republicans wouldn't have put up Trump again. With the right campaign, they could have picked many different people and had a pretty good shot to win without driving more division.

Neither side seems to be willing to break away from the paths each side has been going down, which seems to be towards the far side(s) of the political spectrum.




Looking at this chart makes me wonder if one of these "other" guys would be great for uniting the country, maybe the world. 2024's numbers are not listed in the chart, but based on my count, there were 812 "other" registered candidates this year, outside of the main republican/democrat categories, most of which are either independent, nonpartisan, or unaffiliated. I'd see this jump in numbers as an indication real Americans are unhappy with the paths the established left and right have been going down.

Unfortunately, without a lot of financial and/or media support, most "other" guys never get seen or heard, mainly since the big players in our "free" press all appear to be financially in bed with the established rep/dem groups. I feel like the last 2 elections, at least, I've felt the pressure to vote more against someone and not for someone I actually wanted, which is sad.

~And everyone lived happily ever after.  God bless the USA.

That's it?  What about civil war, Abraham Lincoln, emancipation proclamation, 13th amendment, assassination, civil rights movement, etc... we've come a long way.

[paxmao]

Congrats on the win Poker Player!

As for this election, IIWII. I've got some concerns with the house potentially going republican as well, which might hinder some of the checks & balances to keep Trump from going wild wild west.

Even if it ends up all republican, I think there are enough level-headed republicans that wouldn't let Trump go completely bat shit crazy, maybe the legal system helps.. it helped with controlling some things during his first term, I guess we'll see.

[..]

Ok, so a few posts ago you were leaning towards Trump, but now...what am I reading here? Somehow you are now leaning towards not letting Trump do Trump things?

One of the main reasons to not elect Trump I mentioned several times was the level and types of risks that were associated with him and another very big reason is that he owns the Republican party and has been placing his people all over during years. There is no Republican party as you used to know it before him, he has taken it and anyone who dares to oppose goes to the political graveyard.

Sorry to those who thought that Trump could be controlled, would not go to far or somehow would be prevented from suiciding the US international, migration and trade policies and voted for him. Read the small print: no returns accepted.

[Richy_T]

I'm still baffled the democrats wouldn't have put someone else up, they had the chance to throw anyone in against Trump, and even at the last minute, and they picked Kamala, with a clear attachment and track record with Biden. Similarly, I really wish the Republicans wouldn't have put up Trump again. With the right campaign, they could have picked many different people and had a pretty good shot to win without driving more division.

Your confusion with Kamala is due to a misunderstanding of the nature of the party. The whole "danger to democracy" schtick talking point they espouse tells you exactly what's going on. Trump won the nomination because that's what people wanted. The Democrat party had already picked a different candidate, in case you don't remember. You weren't allowed him. This has been a theme.

- Nuclear deterrence in question. Military deterrence in Europe in question.

Srsly?

- SCOTUS ruling early in the year gives nearly unlimited - prosecution free - ability to commit crime.

Misrepresentation and as much as it's true has been enjoyed by previous presidents. Call me when Obama is arrested for gun-running and executing Americans without trial (I'm sure there's plenty of others)

- Nationwide ban or draconian legislation on reproductive rights is now possible.

RvW was always bad law. Even RBG said so. Also, Trump is not directly responsible for this and does not support a nationwide ban.

- Someone can be a felon and President - within months of each other.

Everyone honest knows that was bullshit. Plus that's always been the case.

- Someone with a civil conviction for rape can be President.

Everyone honest knows that was bullshit. They even had to change the law to allow that to be brought. Also, civil convictions are brought on preponderance of evidence (and even that was sketchy) and do not have the weight of a criminal conviction which must be beyond a reasonable doubt.

- Someone who orders a march on the Capitol can be President (and do not respond for it).

Straight up lie

This is not a collection of facts that amount to reasons not to vote for Trump, this is a collection of talking points to justify your dislike for Trump. You're not going to convince anyone who looks beyond talking points.

[ibminer]

Ok, so a few posts ago you were leaning towards Trump, but now...what am I reading here? Somehow you are now leaning towards not letting Trump do Trump things?

I assume you're referring to me saying "I lean towards Trump as the slightly safer option", maybe a better way to put it is that I lean further away from Kamala than I lean away from Trump?   Neither represent who I'd want to lean towards.

One of the main reasons to not elect Trump I mentioned several times was the level and types of risks that were associated with him and another very big reason is that he owns the Republican party and has been placing his people all over during years. There is no Republican party as you used to know it before him, he has taken it and anyone who dares to oppose goes to the political graveyard.

I don't think he owns everyone who represents a republican, although certainly there are many diehard supporters on the right. And there are many diehard supporters on the left. Overall, both candidates here represented too many risks on each side for me, that's why it felt like the extreme's of both sides were running, which creates more division between people with different opinions. There are many republicans that I don't think really like Trump, some maybe not as outspoken as others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Republicans_who_opposed_the_Donald_Trump_2024_presidential_campaign

Your confusion with Kamala is due to a misunderstanding of the nature of the party. The whole "danger to democracy" schtick talking point they espouse tells you exactly what's going on. Trump won the nomination because that's what people wanted. The Democrat party had already picked a different candidate, in case you don't remember. You weren't allowed him. This has been a theme.

I didn't like the timing of the swap but I could never really see Biden as a serious option. Outside of any policies or changes he was going to pitch, his cognitive decline, or whatever health issue he is going through, wasn't something I was going to be OK with for 4 more years given the state of the country & world. I could have made that statement well before he announced he was re-running, based on videos I saw, speeches I heard, etc.

I really thought someone else was going to take the reigns at some point sooner, but gave up on that thought as time passed... then bam there was Kamala. *shrug*  Bitter sweet because at least there was another option to look at seriously, but then it appeared to be the same stuff from the past 4 years and pushing it further, which I also wasn't going to be OK with. *shrug*

[paxmao]

Ok, so a few posts ago you were leaning towards Trump, but now...what am I reading here? Somehow you are now leaning towards not letting Trump do Trump things?

I assume you're referring to me saying "I lean towards Trump as the slightly safer option", maybe a better way to put it is that I lean further away from Kamala than I lean away from Trump?   Neither represent who I'd want to lean towards.

One of the main reasons to not elect Trump I mentioned several times was the level and types of risks that were associated with him and another very big reason is that he owns the Republican party and has been placing his people all over during years. There is no Republican party as you used to know it before him, he has taken it and anyone who dares to oppose goes to the political graveyard.

I don't think he owns everyone who represents a republican, although certainly there are many diehard supporters on the right. And there are many diehard supporters on the left. Overall, both candidates here represented too many risks on each side for me, that's why it felt like the extreme's of both sides were running, which creates more division between people with different opinions. There are many republicans that I don't think really like Trump, some maybe not as outspoken as others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Republicans_who_opposed_the_Donald_Trump_2024_presidential_campaign

[...]

Whatever opossition was there, after the level of popular support on this campaign, it is over. It is a lot about the money and there is a lot of money after setting tariffs and giving corporation tax breaks. I do not picture any Republican oposing the main points of Trump agenda including all those that make the risk I mentioned more likely after his election.

Well, whatever happens the world will adapt - I mean unless there is a nuclear war or the like.

[satscraper]

Whatever opossition was there, after the level of popular support on this campaign, it is over. It is a lot about the money and there is a lot of money after setting tariffs and giving corporation tax breaks.

In fact it was a piggyback ride for Trump who was saddled up  by Musk with the aim  to fulfill his ambitions, get extra money and proceed to further people brainwashing. There is a rumor that he got more than 20 billions boost just during one evening. After Musk acquired  former Twitter ^{(trashed it to the current X)} my first thought he did just for the single purpose i.e. to manipulate people during the future ^{at that time} election campaign and the time has proved that I was correct.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Seeing that the Republicans are also going to take the House, with which they have swept the total of the elections, Presidential, Senate and House, I reaffirm that for such a thing the Democrats must have done very badly during the last 4 years and also in the electoral campaign.

That elitist argument that Trump has won because Republican voters are retarded or misinformed, when most major media outlets except Fox are pro-Democrat, is not wanting to learn anything from what has happened.

[paxmao]

Seeing that the Republicans are also going to take the House, with which they have swept the total of the elections, Presidential, Senate and House, I reaffirm that for such a thing the Democrats must have done very badly during the last 4 years and also in the electoral campaign.

That elitist argument that Trump has won because Republican voters are retarded or misinformed, when most major media outlets except Fox are pro-Democrat, is not wanting to learn anything from what has happened.

That is something that needs to be accepted by the Democrats if they want to be an alternative in the near future. They went too far on the wrong things to get votes that anyway were going to be theirs and did not appeal to the middle classes and the moderates of both sides. Also, they have been indecisive in issues that required decisiveness and that is to be paid.

On the bright side, I think that with this "trifecta" of Government (plus the SCOTUS in the pocket, let's not forget), Trump is going to go full Trump to the point of no return. There are a range of possible scenarios, from a backslash of deportations, getting some fallout from commercial wars, social unrest among some minorities... The Secretaries he is appointing are in the radical zones of the spectrum in some key positions.

No, many of the Trump voters are not stupid retards, and certainly the millionaires that donated have made an excellent deal as they will get a x100 return with tax cuts and SP 500 exhuberance.

[Free Market Capitalist]

That is something that needs to be accepted by the Democrats if they want to be an alternative in the near future. They went too far on the wrong things to get votes that anyway were going to be theirs and did not appeal to the middle classes and the moderates of both sides. Also, they have been indecisive in issues that required decisiveness and that is to be paid.

On the bright side, I think that with this "trifecta" of Government (plus the SCOTUS in the pocket, let's not forget), Trump is going to go full Trump to the point of no return. There are a range of possible scenarios, from a backslash of deportations, getting some fallout from commercial wars, social unrest among some minorities... The Secretaries he is appointing are in the radical zones of the spectrum in some key positions.

No, many of the Trump voters are not stupid retards, and certainly the millionaires that donated have made an excellent deal as they will get a x100 return with tax cuts and SP 500 exhuberance.

Some of you seem to find it hard to understand that many of us don't care if the rich get richer if the rest of us can get richer too. Wealth is not a cake.

Besides, I don't know what the Democratic donors will think. You haven't heard anything about the scandal?

DNC's Lindy Li: Claims Harris campaign $20M in DEBT, staffers not paid, top donors fleeing

How did the Harris campaign blow through $1 billion? | Cuomo

DNC 'in complete turmoil,' finance committee member says in extended interview | NewsNation

How did Kamala Harris’s campaign rack up a debt after record fundraising?

This is a good example of what a great money manager Harris is. It's not just the mismanagement, it's that she paid a bundle to appear on the sites she appeared on including Oprah, who doesn't need the $1M he paid her at all (and some of it came from modest people who donated $20 and the like) and who has denied it because it appears she didn't pay her directly but her company:

‘I Was Never Paid Anything—Ever’: Oprah Winfrey Denies She Was Paid $1M for Kamala Harris Appearance As Reports Claim Vice President’s Campaign Is $20M In Debt After Spending $1B

Federal Election Commission records show that Winfrey’s production company, Harpo Production Inc., received two payments of $500,000 each on Oct. 15. Winfrey alleges it was for production costs and equipment.

[paxmao]

That is something that needs to be accepted by the Democrats if they want to be an alternative in the near future. They went too far on the wrong things to get votes that anyway were going to be theirs and did not appeal to the middle classes and the moderates of both sides. Also, they have been indecisive in issues that required decisiveness and that is to be paid.

On the bright side, I think that with this "trifecta" of Government (plus the SCOTUS in the pocket, let's not forget), Trump is going to go full Trump to the point of no return. There are a range of possible scenarios, from a backslash of deportations, getting some fallout from commercial wars, social unrest among some minorities... The Secretaries he is appointing are in the radical zones of the spectrum in some key positions.

No, many of the Trump voters are not stupid retards, and certainly the millionaires that donated have made an excellent deal as they will get a x100 return with tax cuts and SP 500 exhuberance.

Some of you seem to find it hard to understand that many of us don't care if the rich get richer if the rest of us can get richer too. Wealth is not a cake.

Besides, I don't know what the Democratic donors will think. You haven't heard anything about the scandal?

DNC's Lindy Li: Claims Harris campaign $20M in DEBT, staffers not paid, top donors fleeing

How did the Harris campaign blow through $1 billion? | Cuomo

DNC 'in complete turmoil,' finance committee member says in extended interview | NewsNation

How did Kamala Harris’s campaign rack up a debt after record fundraising?

This is a good example of what a great money manager Harris is. It's not just the mismanagement, it's that she paid a bundle to appear on the sites she appeared on including Oprah, who doesn't need the $1M he paid her at all (and some of it came from modest people who donated $20 and the like) and who has denied it because it appears she didn't pay her directly but her company:

‘I Was Never Paid Anything—Ever’: Oprah Winfrey Denies She Was Paid $1M for Kamala Harris Appearance As Reports Claim Vice President’s Campaign Is $20M In Debt After Spending $1B

Federal Election Commission records show that Winfrey’s production company, Harpo Production Inc., received two payments of $500,000 each on Oct. 15. Winfrey alleges it was for production costs and equipment.

I am not sure you are speaking about me, but I am not a wealth redistribution absolutist. I think it is absolutely necessary to have a spectrum of wealth in society. However, at the moment there is a constant concentration of wealth in some individuals and levelling is required for social stability. If you read the Capital in the XXI Century, you will find that such distribution in which "everyone gets richer" does not occur naturally - it requires proactivity.

There is a whole generation of young people whose lives are going to be worse in economic terms than their parents and struggling to emancipate, and I am talking middle class, which shows how that is failing.

Also, wealth is kind of a cake when resources are limited. This is about how goods are distributed and how decisions are made in government. Massive wealth carries massive influence (Hi Elon, yes that is you) which taken to a point makes Democracy less of a democracy.

Re misdoings... I am less concerned about the accounted mismanagement than about the mismanagement that I know is happening and is not recorded nor can be proven.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Also, wealth is kind of a cake when resources are limited.

You see, here we are not going to agree because we start from a fundamental difference of concept.


Superabundance: The Story of Population Growth, Innovation, and Human Flourishing on an Infinitely Bountiful Planet


But anyway, nice debating with you without the discussion becoming too heated.

[paxmao]

Also, wealth is kind of a cake when resources are limited.

You see, here we are not going to agree because we start from a fundamental difference of concept.


Superabundance: The Story of Population Growth, Innovation, and Human Flourishing on an Infinitely Bountiful Planet


But anyway, nice debating with you without the discussion becoming too heated.

I have not read the book, but I can agree with the principle that population growth does not by itself generate scarcity, however despite how wealth is generated eventually has to be assigned to the control of individuals. That is where there is actually a cake and that is something that the large fortunes of this planet have clear that the less taxes, the more wealth is concentrated on them.

Nice talking to you too. I do respect arguments, I am just tired of hearing over an over slogans, accusations, lies... all without any further proof or rationale and let's face it, politics in the US have become extremely divisive - not the best choice for a country that is about to face the growth of their biggest adversaries.

[suchmoon]

Trump picked a Project 2025 nutjob Brendan Carr as his FCC chairman nominee. Carr apparently wants to get rid of section 230 among other things (like revoking licenses of broadcasters he doesn't like), which is basically what allows sites like Bitcointalk to exist without getting sued out of existence.

I kinda faintly remember someone claiming that Trump represents the "free world" versus the "communism" of the other candidate LOL

[Free Market Capitalist]

Trump picked a Project 2025 nutjob Brendan Carr as his FCC chairman nominee. Carr apparently wants to get rid of section 230 among other things (like revoking licenses of broadcasters he doesn't like), which is basically what allows sites like Bitcointalk to exist without getting sued out of existence.

I kinda faintly remember someone claiming that Trump represents the "free world" versus the "communism" of the other candidate LOL

Yes, well, we'll have to see what that translates into. I too remember in 2016 a lot of people saying that if Trump won he was going to get us into WW3, and this 2024 another much of the same, when it's not exactly Trump who is playing to see if the world starts throwing nukes at each other.

By the way in all these years when I talked about the censorship that the democrats wanted to carry out, or the one they are carrying out in the UK, you did not say anything. It is clear to me that you are only bothered by censorship when it is from one side.

[paxmao]

Trump picked a Project 2025 nutjob Brendan Carr as his FCC chairman nominee. Carr apparently wants to get rid of section 230 among other things (like revoking licenses of broadcasters he doesn't like), which is basically what allows sites like Bitcointalk to exist without getting sued out of existence.

I kinda faintly remember someone claiming that Trump represents the "free world" versus the "communism" of the other candidate LOL

Yes, well, we'll have to see what that translates into. I too remember in 2016 a lot of people saying that if Trump won he was going to get us into WW3, and this 2024 another much of the same, when it's not exactly Trump who is playing to see if the world starts throwing nukes at each other.

By the way in all these years when I talked about the censorship that the democrats wanted to carry out, or the one they are carrying out in the UK, you did not say anything. It is clear to me that you are only bothered by censorship when it is from one side.

For the moment, Musk has spoken against the F-35 project saying that is better to have drones and that it is too expensive. I am struggling not to take this as an indication of working for the "enemy". Let's see what else does he want to "cost cut" or "optimise". My guess, he has seen the Pentagon budgets and wants a slice of it.

Trump has announced (which may or may not happen) immediate tariffs with Mexico and Canada. I do not think that will make things cheaper in the US, will it?

[Free Market Capitalist]

~snip

I don't want to deviate too much about what suchmoon has said. Apparently he is very concerned about alleged censorship that could supposedly kill bitcointalk (lol) but he wasn't concerned about this:

John Kerry calls the First Amendment a 'major block' to stopping 'disinformation'

VP Candidate Tim Walz on "There's No Guarantee to Free Speech on Misinformation or Hate Speech, and Especially Around Our Democracy"

Some time ago, he did not make a single comment in this thread:

WTF? YouTube censoring Senator Rand Paul videos?

So about social media censoring people who don't think like him he says nothing, about the Democrats wanting to reform the first amendment and create a body (controlled by them) to censor what can be said or not either and now due to this appointment he comes to tell us that we are going to lose freedom.

Lol.

Did you like the appointment of Jay Bhattacharya? I think it deserves a few beers with popcorn, and because it's been more than a decade since I smoked a joint otherwise I'd have one too.

[suchmoon]

Some time ago, he did not make a single comment in this thread:

You can't possibly expect me to comment in every thread but I have said many times in many different threads that social media sites should be able to have and enforce their own rules (within the law of course), that's their free speech rights. Bitcointalk can ban any shitposter, Elon can ban anyone who criticizes him on whatever he's calling his site today. Trump (or Biden) should not be able to tell how to moderate those sites. First amendment is about the government not making laws restricting free speech, i.e. the opposite of the attempts of these new trumplings to force media to publish certain content. And to preempt any further "whataboutism" - if Hillary or Obama or George Washington did anything like that, it would be wrong too.

Trump has announced (which may or may not happen) immediate tariffs with Mexico and Canada. I do not think that will make things cheaper in the US, will it?

It would, but the deep state (aka basic math and economics) will not allow it. Trump will need a third term to really fix it.