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Author Topic: Problem recovering transaction from 2009 wallet  (Read 1019 times)
DaveF
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October 13, 2024, 06:35:07 PM
Last edit: October 13, 2024, 07:50:01 PM by DaveF
Merited by d5000 (1)
 #41

...

I don't understand how it can be fake, it was in my brother's pc who didn't understand anything about computers and moreover it's from 2009 also the date of the last modification (of the wallet.dat)



If he didn't understand computers how / why would he be mining BTC within it's 1st 6 months of existence?

And if he didn't understand computers, and he was mining it's possible he was doing it wrong.

Just looking around all the blocks that were mined on that day the times shown in the GUI don't match up with any blocks.

At a guess, if he was mining he generated a block that was not accepted and then kept mining on top of that so the entire chain was not accepted.

-Dave



 
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mcdouglasx
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October 13, 2024, 06:58:27 PM
 #42




I don't understand how it can be fake, it was in my brother's pc who didn't understand anything about computers and moreover it's from 2009 also the date of the last modification (of the wallet.dat)



the blocks should be from block 15400 to 15450, all p2pkh addresses, if you have the wif private keys you can generate their respective address(P2pkh).
if you have the keys in hex, generate their compressed and uncompressed versions.

if you use electrum

import privatekey

p2pkh:Wif

example:

p2pkh:5JdeC9P7Pbd1uGdFVEsJ41EkEnADbbHGq6p1BwFxm6txNBsQnsw

you should now see the correct wallets and balances.

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philipma1957
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October 13, 2024, 07:42:38 PM
 #43


https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/154xx

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/15444
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/15443
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/15442

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/154xx

you can look the blocks up


have fun with it

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gigi0ne (OP)
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October 13, 2024, 08:57:44 PM
 #44


done everything, is it normal that importdescriptors doesn't return anything? a true a false something....

listunspent return [ ]

I don't know what to do anymore...
apogio
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October 13, 2024, 09:01:10 PM
 #45


done everything, is it normal that importdescriptors doesn't return anything? a true a false something....

listunspent return [ ]

I don't know what to do anymore...

It should return true / false, unless there is a problem like DaveF explained above.

Have you tried the sendall function? https://bitcoincore.org/en/doc/24.0.0/rpc/wallet/sendall/

gigi0ne (OP)
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October 13, 2024, 09:15:53 PM
 #46

...

I don't understand how it can be fake, it was in my brother's pc who didn't understand anything about computers and moreover it's from 2009 also the date of the last modification (of the wallet.dat)



If he didn't understand computers how / why would he be mining BTC within it's 1st 6 months of existence?

And if he didn't understand computers, and he was mining it's possible he was doing it wrong.

Just looking around all the blocks that were mined on that day the times shown in the GUI don't match up with any blocks.

At a guess, if he was mining he generated a block that was not accepted and then kept mining on top of that so the entire chain was not accepted.

ok, but then why were they accepted by so many ?

They should not have been accepted..
mcdouglasx
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October 13, 2024, 09:42:20 PM
 #47

I repeat, generate your P2PKH addresses, compressed and uncompressed, see if they have a balance in blockchain.com forget P2PK for the moment, if it is P2PK then you know it, the explorers show P2PK as P2PKH.

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/script/p2pk/

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DaveF
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October 13, 2024, 10:10:17 PM
Merited by nc50lc (1)
 #48

...
ok, but then why were they accepted by so many ?

They should not have been accepted..

Because he might have been mining with a node that was not connected to the rest of the network.

If you mine a block that is not accepted but you keep mining the next block you find will then cause the 1st block to show 1 confirmation if you keep mining that number will keep growing. But you are mining on a fork that has nothing to do with the rest of the network.

Not quite the same but: https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2015-07-04-spv-mining



Either way it does not seem that those are real mined coins that are in that wallet.dat

-Dave

 
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Cricktor
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October 13, 2024, 10:24:27 PM
Merited by d5000 (1)
 #49

ok, but then why were they accepted by so many ?

They should not have been accepted..
This is indeed a bit puzzling. My theory is the following:
Your brother's computer running a mining node was somehow only connected to some other node, but both weren't properly connected to the rest of the bitcoin nodes out there. Your brother's node started to mine on a fork block which was confirmed by the connected node but not by the rest of the bitcoin network.

I don't know if confirmations are only accounted when at least one connected other node accepts generated blocks. It would seem odd to me if an isolated node without other connected nodes would "confirm" its own blocks alone.

All further mined blocks of your brother's node were chained to this fork block which the other connected node happily confirmed. Maybe that other node also contributed some blocks when it mined blocks itself.

Because those two isolated nodes didn't talk to the rest of the network their false diverted leaf chain never got "corrected". This only happens now when you rescan and reindex the blockchain.

I can't come up with another explanation why your example in the screenshots show 437 confirmations which then disappear.


Regarding the debate which lock scripts control the potential UTXOs. I wouldn't care too much on this. I'd be more interested in the transaction IDs, which must be known and existent in the current true blockchain, if the mined UTXOs were real.

When I look at the speed of generated coinbases in your screenshot, it looks surprisingly fast to me, if the generating wallet were connected to the real bitcoin network.

Does anybody know if the timestamp display of transactions in Bitcoin Core is affected by your current timezone?
@gigi0ne, in which timezone are you?


~~~
Dave was faster than me to respond...

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before January 1st 2027?

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gigi0ne (OP)
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October 13, 2024, 10:58:43 PM
 #50

ok, but then why were they accepted by so many ?

They should not have been accepted..
This is indeed a bit puzzling. My theory is the following:
Your brother's computer running a mining node was somehow only connected to some other node, but both weren't properly connected to the rest of the bitcoin nodes out there. Your brother's node started to mine on a fork block which was confirmed by the connected node but not by the rest of the bitcoin network.

I don't know if confirmations are only accounted when at least one connected other node accepts generated blocks. It would seem odd to me if an isolated node without other connected nodes would "confirm" its own blocks alone.

All further mined blocks of your brother's node were chained to this fork block which the other connected node happily confirmed. Maybe that other node also contributed some blocks when it mined blocks itself.

Because those two isolated nodes didn't talk to the rest of the network their false diverted leaf chain never got "corrected". This only happens now when you rescan and reindex the blockchain.

I can't come up with another explanation why your example in the screenshots show 437 confirmations which then disappear.


Regarding the debate which lock scripts control the potential UTXOs. I wouldn't care too much on this. I'd be more interested in the transaction IDs, which must be known and existent in the current true blockchain, if the mined UTXOs were real.

When I look at the speed of generated coinbases in your screenshot, it looks surprisingly fast to me, if the generating wallet were connected to the real bitcoin network.

Does anybody know if the timestamp display of transactions in Bitcoin Core is affected by your current timezone?
@gigi0ne, in which timezone are you?


~~~
Dave was faster than me to respond...


It was March 2009, I don't think there were many miners at the time... anyway the height is from 6000 to about 9500.

Transactions don't exist in the blockchain....

I already have the addresses related to the various private keys and blockchain.com tells me they are P2WPKH how do I convert them to P2PKH?

From Italia
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October 13, 2024, 11:19:02 PM
Merited by vapourminer (1)
 #51

Likely there weren't many people torturing their CPUs to generate Bitcoin blocks, but still the blockrate from your screenshots looks a bit as if there were no competing miners at all (the visible sample space of generated block timestamps is a bit small).

I know that the transaction IDs are not existent in the blockchain, but they exist in your wallet. Transaction IDs are easier to find and verify because you don't need to care about address types and such.

I already have the addresses related to the various private keys and blockchain.com tells me they are P2WPKH how do I convert them to P2PKH?
P2WPKH weren't a thing in 2009, forget about the BS blockchain.com tells you.

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.
.Duelbits PREDICT..
█████████████████████████
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███████████▀▀░░░░▀▀██████
██████████░░▄████▄░░████
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█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
.
.WHERE EVERYTHING IS A MARKET..
█████
██
██







██
██
██████
Will Bitcoin hit $200,000
before January 1st 2027?

    No @1.15         Yes @6.00    
█████
██
██







██
██
██████

  CHECK MORE > 
mcdouglasx
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October 13, 2024, 11:26:11 PM
 #52

ok, but then why were they accepted by so many ?

They should not have been accepted..
This is indeed a bit puzzling. My theory is the following:
Your brother's computer running a mining node was somehow only connected to some other node, but both weren't properly connected to the rest of the bitcoin nodes out there. Your brother's node started to mine on a fork block which was confirmed by the connected node but not by the rest of the bitcoin network.

I don't know if confirmations are only accounted when at least one connected other node accepts generated blocks. It would seem odd to me if an isolated node without other connected nodes would "confirm" its own blocks alone.

All further mined blocks of your brother's node were chained to this fork block which the other connected node happily confirmed. Maybe that other node also contributed some blocks when it mined blocks itself.

Because those two isolated nodes didn't talk to the rest of the network their false diverted leaf chain never got "corrected". This only happens now when you rescan and reindex the blockchain.

I can't come up with another explanation why your example in the screenshots show 437 confirmations which then disappear.


Regarding the debate which lock scripts control the potential UTXOs. I wouldn't care too much on this. I'd be more interested in the transaction IDs, which must be known and existent in the current true blockchain, if the mined UTXOs were real.

When I look at the speed of generated coinbases in your screenshot, it looks surprisingly fast to me, if the generating wallet were connected to the real bitcoin network.

Does anybody know if the timestamp display of transactions in Bitcoin Core is affected by your current timezone?
@gigi0ne, in which timezone are you?


~~~
Dave was faster than me to respond...


It was March 2009, I don't think there were many miners at the time... anyway the height is from 6000 to about 9500.

Transactions don't exist in the blockchain....

I already have the addresses related to the various private keys and blockchain.com tells me they are P2WPKH how do I convert them to P2PKH?

From Italia

importprivkey "WIF"

getnewaddress "" "legacy"

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DaveF
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October 14, 2024, 02:18:09 AM
Merited by vapourminer (1), nc50lc (1)
 #53


It was March 2009, I don't think there were many miners at the time... anyway the height is from 6000 to about 9500.

Transactions don't exist in the blockchain....

I already have the addresses related to the various private keys and blockchain.com tells me they are P2WPKH how do I convert them to P2PKH?

From Italia


There were not a lot of miners, those that were were computer / tech people.

None of these blocks exist on the current live blockchain.

It's either some sort of fake wallet or he had tried to mine did it wrong and had forked himself off to an invalid chain.

-Dave


 
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nc50lc
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October 14, 2024, 08:35:30 AM
Merited by vapourminer (4), DaveF (3), d5000 (2)
 #54

I already have the addresses related to the various private keys and blockchain.com tells me they are P2WPKH how do I convert them to P2PKH?
Don't mind the displayed address in Bitcoin Core, it's an issue in the legacy version, the output is actually Pay-to-Pub-Key (P2PK) which has no address format.
I've checked the raw transaction "hex" in your screenshot and the result of decoderawtransaction command shows that the output script is P2PK:

Code:
"vout": [
    {
      "value": 50.00000000,
      "n": 0,
      "scriptPubKey": {
        "asm": "0353534d9d8cdd7255dc4eeac1a2e68004c75520917b775b0655f15cf073703be8 OP_CHECKSIG",
        "desc": "pk(0353534d9d8cdd7255dc4eeac1a2e68004c75520917b775b0655f15cf073703be8)#8plzldln",
        "hex": "210353534d9d8cdd7255dc4eeac1a2e68004c75520917b775b0655f15cf073703be8ac",
        "type": "pubkey"
      }
    }
  ]

Since those are all generated at the same timeframe, it's safe to assume that the others are P2PK as well.

At least you could tell that your brother must have used "generate" toggle option in the old Bitcoin client since it does that by default.
Problem is, he must had been mining a fork probably by being isolated to at least one peer that's also not connected to the rest of the bitcoin nodes who are mining/verifying the early blocks of the blockchain we have now.

done everything, is it normal that importdescriptors doesn't return anything? a true a false something....
You have an intact legacy wallet.dat containing the private keys, you don't need to import your key to a new wallet as pk descriptors.
A non-descriptor's default behavior is to search of outputs spendable by the private key(s) it holds, not by a specific script like a descriptor wallet.
Syncing the wallet using a legacy wallet-compatible version just 'till your transactions' block height should be enough to verify them, no extra steps.
If it verifies, good; if not, then the block where it's a reward of isn't included in the blockchain of every bitcoin node.

How is it possible that the transactions accepted in 2009 now have different hashes and thus are not recognized?

Shouldn't the hash of a block or transition be immutable?
Bitcoin isn't a single entity, it works by consensus.
When it comes to block; it means that all nodes in the network must have the exact copy of the block for it to be part of the Bitcoin blockchain.
You brother's wallet contains "coinbase transactions" (reward) from blocks that only his node knows since it's generated there,
but it's different from all of the other nodes' copy so it's not part of the Bitcoin blockchain.
In other words: it's "accepted" by his node in 2009 but not by the rest of the Bitcoin nodes.

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gigi0ne (OP)
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October 14, 2024, 08:51:04 AM
 #55

Bitcoin isn't a single entity, it works by consensus.
When it comes to block; it means that all nodes in the network must have the exact copy of the block for it to be part of the Bitcoin blockchain.
You brother's wallet contains "coinbase transactions" (reward) from blocks that only his node knows since it's generated there,
but it's different from all of the other nodes' copy so it's not part of the Bitcoin blockchain.
In other words: it's "accepted" by his node in 2009 but not by the rest of the Bitcoin nodes.

so what do I do I just drop everything and delete?
It will never be possible to recover these bitcoins...right?
Or do you think there is some way to do that?
Cricktor
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October 14, 2024, 09:51:04 PM
Last edit: October 14, 2024, 10:04:44 PM by Cricktor
Merited by vapourminer (4), d5000 (2)
 #56

so what do I do I just drop everything and delete?
It will never be possible to recover these bitcoins...right?
Or do you think there is some way to do that?
I can't support or raise your hopes, but you have to confirm it yourself. It all looks like what nc50lc wrote last, but we've only seen a small portion of the picture.

If I were you, this is what I would do:
  • make enough redundant backups so that no data can be lost, especially not the wallet.dat
  • import the wallet.dat in a recent version of Bitcoin Core (you may need to use a few intermediate versions, if an import directly to Core v28.0.0 doesn't work
  • sync the wallet to a fully synced blockchain to check if there are any UTXOs left
  • if you don't or can't believe the outcome, you could use bitcoin-cli getrawtransaction "txid" to check for the existance of every generate (coinbase) transaction in your wallet (this can be painful) --- see bitcoin-cli help getrawtransaction for more details (you should've txindex=1 active to benefit from the transaction index, especially for this command)
  • you could also check if any of the generated blocks exist in the blockchain (they likely don't, but you should verify yourself and not believe any of us, because we don't have the full details); use bitcoin-cli getblock "blockhash" to check every block your brother mined (the blockhashes are included in the output of bitcoin-cli gettransaction "txid"
  • you can also search additionally in well known blockexplorers like blockchair.com, mempool.space, bitcoinexplorer.org
  • I think it's important to verify success or fail yourself, this will give you confidence to move on, whatever the outcome is
  • if it's too much now, because some of your dreams have gone "pooof", take a break and do it later when you feel you've the strength for it


I don't know your programming skills. A lot of it could be automated, but thorough testing is advisable, very thorough testing or very verbose output to check every possible detail.

It will be painful, I'm pretty sure of that. It's totally up to you if you want to walk this path.

I wouldn't delete anything, even when thorough testing and verification resulted in no coins at all. It looks like something went very wrong when your brother mined in those very early days. Not sure if your brother knew if and what went wrong.

Stay strong, life is still beautiful and a joy. Don't ruin your life because of likely no coins from this. (I don't want to sound too pessimistic, sorry.)

I missed the inception of Bitcoin by about only two years. So what? I can't turn back the clock, it is what it is, can't change my fate. Life is still the biggest miracle and I don't complain.


It will never be possible to recover these bitcoins...right?
If your brother mined an isolated chain branch which the majority of the Bitcoin network never knew about, then there is no recovery because the coins and generated blocks never existed for the consensus. But you have to verify this conclusion based on your presented details better yourself.

Or do you think there is some way to do that?
I'm not sure if I presented above all you can do to verify existance or non-existance of coinbase coins from your brother's mining.
You can also extract every single private key in a safe environment from your legacy wallet and construct a modern descriptor wallet with combo() descriptors that match almost every possible address script type; rescan the whole blockchain with that wallet; assuming to didn't make errors and the result is still, nada coins, then it is what it is.

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.Duelbits PREDICT..
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.
.WHERE EVERYTHING IS A MARKET..
█████
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Will Bitcoin hit $200,000
before January 1st 2027?

    No @1.15         Yes @6.00    
█████
██
██







██
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██████

  CHECK MORE > 
nc50lc
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October 15, 2024, 04:34:33 AM
 #57

-snip-
so what do I do I just drop everything and delete?
The SOP is to never delete used wallet.dat files for archival purposes, in case you'll need something from it.
But do not send to anyone.

Quote from: gigi0ne
It will never be possible to recover these bitcoins...right?
Or do you think there is some way to do that?
I can only verify that the transaction in the OP and your screenshot: isn't included in the blockchain.
For the other txns, you can check by rescanning the wallet.dat to a fully synced Bitcoin Core (though, early blocks should be enough)
or reply with the list of "transaction id" and optional "blockhash" of each transaction in the list so everyone can check if it's valid.

It's unfortunate that the transactions seem legitimately came from early days mining based from the timestamps' gaps.
But one Bitcoin client (node) can't just command all of the client to replace their blockchain with his own version of the blockchain.

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.Duelbits PREDICT..
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.
.WHERE EVERYTHING IS A MARKET..
█████
██
██







██
██
██████
Will Bitcoin hit $200,000
before January 1st 2027?

    No @1.15         Yes @6.00    
█████
██
██







██
██
██████

  CHECK MORE > 
gigi0ne (OP)
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October 15, 2024, 10:24:23 AM
Last edit: October 15, 2024, 10:42:20 AM by gigi0ne
 #58

It's unfortunate that the transactions seem legitimately came from early days mining based from the timestamps' gaps.
But one Bitcoin client (node) can't just command all of the client to replace their blockchain with his own version of the blockchain.

I ask a stupid question..... if I put together 130 virtual machines (not a problem for me) , send coinbase transactions created with these private keys and have them authorized by the 130 machines, do you think it is feasible?


If yes, who can help me? I swear I'll leave them a couple of private keys....
one now and one when we can
nc50lc
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October 15, 2024, 11:57:49 AM
 #59

It's unfortunate that the transactions seem legitimately came from early days mining based from the timestamps' gaps.
But one Bitcoin client (node) can't just command all of the client to replace their blockchain with his own version of the blockchain.
I ask a stupid question..... if I put together 130 virtual machines (not a problem for me) , send coinbase transactions created with these private keys and have them authorized by the 130 machines, do you think it is feasible?
That will essentially create your own fork of Bitcoin (an Altcoin of your creation) since you'll build your own network of nodes that will not be able to connect to Bitcoin nodes. (since those will reject your blocks)
Its blockchain will build over from the last block that your brother mined, it wont affect the Bitcoin Network.

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.
.WHERE EVERYTHING IS A MARKET..
█████
██
██







██
██
██████
Will Bitcoin hit $200,000
before January 1st 2027?

    No @1.15         Yes @6.00    
█████
██
██







██
██
██████

  CHECK MORE > 
mcdouglasx
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October 15, 2024, 12:00:26 PM
 #60

It's unfortunate that the transactions seem legitimately came from early days mining based from the timestamps' gaps.
But one Bitcoin client (node) can't just command all of the client to replace their blockchain with his own version of the blockchain.

I ask a stupid question..... if I put together 130 virtual machines (not a problem for me) , send coinbase transactions created with these private keys and have them authorized by the 130 machines, do you think it is feasible?


If yes, who can help me? I swear I'll leave them a couple of private keys....
one now and one when we can


It is not possible to replace what is already in the blockchain, if your transactions were not included, they will not do it, on the contrary anyone could replace the satoshi rewards, and this would literally be a 51% attack.

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