Bitcoin vs. Gold - is market cap parity utopian? (Spoiler, no!)

[Dump3er]

I am also not one of the people who believe Bitcoin will meet Gold in market capitalization

You don't believe Bitcoin can do a 14x, when it's been doubling every year on average for the last few years?

Gold has the physical value that Bitcoin doesn't have aside from the fact that it has existed for so long to have built the trust of the biggest guys in the industry.

The physical value is only a tiny fraction of its monetary value. Gold is valuated at where it is, because it has had the best money properties until 2009. Same like, Bitcoin is valuated at where it is, because it is recognized as the best money in terms of monetary properties. It is not valuated at $1T, *just* for being peer-to-peer cash system.

It is good that you bring up the 14x multiplier because that is what I was trying to convey and what EarnOnVictor seems to not understand.

We went from a 5.66 million multiplier in 2010 to a 14x multiplier today. It is astonishing to see people ignoring those facts.

@EarnOnVictor, you registered just recently, but can you imagine what you would have said in 2010, 2011, 2012...,2016, etc.? The multiplier in 2016 was ~665x. Then the multiplier got decimated again within just two years to 50x. Guess what, it got cut down by almost 4/5th again until now (and a couple of times in the meantime).

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Bitcoin couldn't even hit $1.5T till now. We should be realistic, Gold is so valuable and people will continue to hold it dear regardless of how we may pretend and it's not everyone who will trust the virtual Bitcoin, ever, trust me.

Sorry dude, but I trust Bitcoin more than I trust you for very good reasons! You better use all your BTC to buy gold then! I mean you are still around here on the forum trying to make some BTC, huh?

I like how you said

Bitcoin couldn't even hit $1.5T till now.

As if that alone wouldn't be already insane. Try to create something out of thin air that is worth $1.3 trillion within 15 years...

[JayJuanGee]

I'm done comparing Bitcoin with Gold, Gold will win some and Bitcoin will win the others, it has always been like that. I am also not one of the people who believe Bitcoin will meet Gold in market capitalization, and my reason is mainly that Gold has the physical value that Bitcoin doesn't have aside from the fact that it has existed for so long to have built the trust of the biggest guys in the industry.

Can you see the way Gold has garnered more trillions of dollars in just a year? Bitcoin couldn't even hit $1.5T till now. We should be realistic, Gold is so valuable and people will continue to hold it dear regardless of how we may pretend and it's not everyone who will trust the virtual Bitcoin, ever, trust me.

Gold won due to global instability, that's why the gold price rise really high in this year. But, I'm sure Bitcoin will beat the "gold's volatility" in the next year since we're heading to bull season, if gold price can rise for 25%, Bitcoin will make it 100%.

That's true Bitcoin not yet become the safest asset for Average Joe, most still think gold and real estate are the most promising.

This is not about Gold won now, Gold has been winning before our ancestors were born and it will continue to win because it is better preferred as a safe-haven asset during uncertain times, the physical presence is contributory as well. Like I earlier said, I do not want to compare Gold and Bitcoin again for many reasons, but still, I fault your statement that "I'm sure Bitcoin will beat the "gold's volatility"" without adding the provable/constructive reason why such will happen. We should stop living in the fantasy of what we believe will happen but what is feasible and provable.

In comparison to gold, bitcoin is winning MOAR bigger than gold, even if we start the measurement from 2012 rather than going to bitcoin's first few years of having little to no price... So even if we start bitcoin from $5 per coin in the beginning of 2012, it should be pretty fucking obvious that bitcoin has been kicking the shit out of gold, and any reasonable inference is that bitcoin continues to kick gold's ass and will likely kick gold's ass in the future.

So if you want to be a dumbass and consider gold to be either superior to bitcoin or even equal to bitcoin, then you can have fun staying poor if you choose to allocate in that kind of way or even if you choose to allocate anymore than 10% the size of your bitcoin holdings to gold, then you are quite likely failing/refusing to understand either bitcoin or gold, its current role in society and its likely future role in society... including that bitcoin is likely in the ballpark of 1,000x or more more valuable than gold in terms of its market cap and bitcoin currently has a market cap of about 1/15th the size of gold, so even if it might take 50-200 years or more for some kind of a reasonably more accurate reflection of the relative market caps of each (bitcoin and gold), you may well be uninformed and/or in a fantasyland if you continue to believe that currently gold is a good or even anywhere close to as good as bitcoin as an investment.

Bitcoin couldn't even hit $1.5T till now. We should be realistic, Gold is so valuable and people will continue to hold it dear regardless of how we may pretend and it's not everyone who will trust the virtual Bitcoin, ever, trust me.

Sorry dude, but I trust Bitcoin more than I trust you for very good reasons! You better use all your BTC to buy gold then! I mean you are still around here on the forum trying to make some BTC, huh?

I like how you said

Bitcoin couldn't even hit $1.5T till now.

As if that alone wouldn't be already insane. Try to create something out of thin air that is worth $1.3 trillion within 15 years...

If EarnOnVictor is so dumb as to invest/trade in accordance with his dumbass proclamations, then surely he is going to be faced with a pretty damned high likelihood of having fun staying poor (relatively speaking).. Him and Peter Schiff.. to the extent that Schiff might also be investing in accordance with his proclamations of the supposed better value of gold versus the worser value of bitcoin.  Surely, some folks might not be so dumb as to actually invest (or trade) in accordance with their nonsensical (lacking in evidence/logic) proclamations.

[Dump3er]

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In comparison to gold, bitcoin is winning MOAR bigger than gold, even if we start the measurement from 2012 rather than going to bitcoin's first few years of having little to no price... So even if we start bitcoin from $5 per coin in the beginning of 2012, it should be pretty fucking obvious that bitcoin has been kicking the shit out of gold, and any reasonable inference is that bitcoin continues to kick gold's ass and will likely kick gold's ass in the future.

So if you want to be a dumbass and consider gold to be either superior to bitcoin or even equal to bitcoin, then you can have fun staying poor if you choose to allocate in that kind of way or even if you choose to allocate anymore than 10% the size of your bitcoin holdings to gold, then you are quite likely failing/refusing to understand either bitcoin or gold, its current role in society and its likely future role in society... including that bitcoin is likely in the ballpark of 1,000x or more more valuable than gold in terms of its market cap and bitcoin currently has a market cap of about 1/15th the size of gold, so even if it might take 50-200 years or more for some kind of a reasonably more accurate reflection of the relative market caps of each (bitcoin and gold), you may well be uninformed and/or in a fantasyland if you continue to believe that currently gold is a good or even anywhere close to as good as bitcoin as an investment.

We don't even have to go to 2012 to make it look insane! Just have another look at my excel table in the first post, we have been at 1,287x in 2015 and 665x in 2016. It decimated the gap by 50x since then. This is still out of this world and bitcoin has been outperforming all asset classes for such a long time that even a year of two of consolidation and sideways movement is irrelevant, or maybe rather a good sign as it had tons of volume and it means that there is either some redistribution among folks around the world, or there is some very strategic accumulation going on. But the volume is there and it is not there because people have fun buying for 65k and selling for 65k the next day.

Gold currently represents about 3.6% of wealth. Bitcoin currently represents about 0.276% of global wealth. If I had to make a bet whether gold goes 10x first or bitcoin goes 10x first, I'd know in which basket to put my eggs. Gold has not much room to grow for very practical reasons. Of course if you are a billionaire and hold a few tonnes, it could still double in price or maybe triple and it is worth it since you are already rich. But where should it go? 33%, one third of global wealth? I know that global wealth can and will increase overall and then the relative numbers are a bit different. But as of now, bitcoin is the call if you want some substantial upside opportunity.

Bitcoin couldn't even hit $1.5T till now. We should be realistic, Gold is so valuable and people will continue to hold it dear regardless of how we may pretend and it's not everyone who will trust the virtual Bitcoin, ever, trust me.

Sorry dude, but I trust Bitcoin more than I trust you for very good reasons! You better use all your BTC to buy gold then! I mean you are still around here on the forum trying to make some BTC, huh?

I like how you said

Bitcoin couldn't even hit $1.5T till now.

As if that alone wouldn't be already insane. Try to create something out of thin air that is worth $1.3 trillion within 15 years...

If EarnOnVictor is so dumb as to invest/trade in accordance with his dumbass proclamations, then surely he is going to be faced with a pretty damned high likelihood of having fun staying poor (relatively speaking).. Him and Peter Schiff.. to the extent that Schiff might also be investing in accordance with his proclamations of the supposed better value of gold versus the worser value of bitcoin.  Surely, some folks might not be so dumb as to actually invest (or trade) in accordance with their nonsensical (lacking in evidence/logic) proclamations.

Peter Schiff is amazingly ignorant and twists the truth and other peoples' reasonable arguments by so much that I am sometimes shocked how he never gets lost for words... but to his credit at least the guy has a true agenda. He is talking bullshit for a reason.

@EarnOnVictor are you running a precious metal dealing company or are you sitting on a ton of gold? Then I would understand your fact denying approach to understanding bitcoin's potential. But if you are ignorant for no reason, then there are other issues that I can't exactly name.

[LUCKMCFLY]

I think capitalization is something that is quite extensive to explain, but it is necessary to point out something, gold has a much longer history than BTC and that is something that has weight, now BTC is the asset of the future and many young people prefer BTC more than gold itself, so everything is a matter of changes in the world, the most accepted without a doubt is gold, but the most desired worldwide is to have BTC, both represent money and it is not a secret that having both is the smartest.

At the market level, gold has gained a lot of value, BTC too, BTC is expected to be the most important asset of the future and even so, gold will prevail, I would say that they cannot be compared, there are many intrinsic things that are different between the assets, much less put one against the other or in the form of competition, for me both are safe havens of value.

[Dump3er]

I think capitalization is something that is quite extensive to explain, but it is necessary to point out something, gold has a much longer history than BTC and that is something that has weight, now BTC is the asset of the future and many young people prefer BTC more than gold itself, so everything is a matter of changes in the world, the most accepted without a doubt is gold, but the most desired worldwide is to have BTC, both represent money and it is not a secret that having both is the smartest.

At the market level, gold has gained a lot of value, BTC too, BTC is expected to be the most important asset of the future and even so, gold will prevail, I would say that they cannot be compared, there are many intrinsic things that are different between the assets, much less put one against the other or in the form of competition, for me both are safe havens of value.

Capitalization doesn't require any extensive explanation as to how the term is defined. You could argue that the reasons for a certain capitalization to have emerged in the first place is complex and multifactorial. But this is where your post becomes interesting: it took gold thousands of years to build a market cap of say $17 trillion. It took bitcoin 15 years to build a market cap of $1.3 trillion. I am oversimplifying a few matters here, but you get the basic idea. Bitcoin got attacked 1,000s of times, by hackers and we don't even know by whom, but certainly by forks, by alt coins, by governments trying to regulate it to death via prohibition. And it still exists, is thriving and people around the world entrust the network with $1.3 trillion as of now. When people realize that it can handle that amount without taken down, the network is due to grow further.

In other words, the longer history that gold can look back on didn't hold bitcoin back from growing at an impressive pace, unprecedented pace. Considering this is a technology that nobody can ultimately control, I find that quite impressive. There is no person that arbitrates between parties like an Amazon customer care agent, but people started to understand that this job is done by a decentralized network in the fairest manner possible. Fully neutral via algorithmic determination. There can be now judge in the world being as neutral as the bitcoin network. Those things are complex and not easy to grasp for folks who get first involved with it.

Gold is easy, but make no mistake that many people don't know what purposes it serves beyond being used for wedding rings. But compared to bitcoin, I think gold has a lot of flaws. The degree of freedom it provides to you is close to zero if we define freedom by flexibility and capital mobility, being able to leave a country, being able to pay someone across boarders, being able to legally hide value from whomever, being able to protect it from confiscation, being able to split it in smaller units or aggregate it into bigger units as you wish, remain solvent and able to pay for things when your bank accounts got frozen, being able to shift value from inflationary assets to a stable or deflationary asset, being able to anonymously/pseudonymously transact (if you do it correctly), being able to fund causes important to you without getting caught or transactions getting blocked or you getting excluded from the financial system forever, etc....

There are so many things to mention why bitcoin is ahead that in my opinion the history that you are talking about only proves the point I mentioned above. What took gold thousands of years, bitcoin was able to build similar levels of trust in about a decade. We've already entered the range of trillions here. Yes it is still 13x or 14x, but that doesn't matter as much.

both represent money and it is not a secret that having both is the smartest.

That is your opinion and I won't say that your personal, subjective point of view is wrong. But "it is no secret" sounds like quite a superlative to me and I am sure there are people who don't own a single ounce of gold, but thousands of bitcoin. But I would not call them "not smart" or "less smart" than someone who owns both

[JayJuanGee]

I think capitalization is something that is quite extensive to explain, but it is necessary to point out something, gold has a much longer history than BTC and that is something that has weight, now BTC is the asset of the future and many young people prefer BTC more than gold itself, so everything is a matter of changes in the world, the most accepted without a doubt is gold, but the most desired worldwide is to have BTC, both represent money and it is not a secret that having both is the smartest.

You have not presented any reason why both gold and bitcoin is smart and/or why the holding any gold is actually smart, especially when bitcoin does almost everything that gold does, except better.  Perhaps the ONLY reason to hold gold is for Armageddon purposes, or perhaps if there is already a good gold network in your geography... .. yet there maybe quite a bit of prudence, even for the guy choosing to hold some gold to actually mostly move over to bitcoin with 90-95% of his value in bitcoin and perhaps at most 5% to 10% the value of his bitcoin holding might be permissible to hold in gold for Armageddon or whatever outsided scenario that is anticipated in which bitcoin might not be a possibility.

At the market level, gold has gained a lot of value, BTC too,

Huh?  Gold had largely been stagnant and losing value in the past 13 years or so, and surely in the past year, Gold has shown some life, but still does not necessarily mean that gold is a good place to put value in ways that bitcoin is not going to be better than gold.

If you had not noticed bitcoin is around 1,000x better than gold or perhaps more than that in terms of various aspects of moneyness, including but not limited to verifiability, portability, scarcity, divisibility, ability to use without third party interference and/or great costs and some other features too.

BTC is expected to be the most important asset of the future and even so, gold will prevail,

Gold will prevail how?  You mean continue to survive for a while during the time that institutions, governments and individuals are recognizing and appreciating that bitcoin is better, not only in terms of bitcoin already having had increased in value stupendously compared with gold and that the trend of bitcoin eating gold's lunch is going to be continuing, and yeah, sure gold will survive and flail compared with bitcoin, and maybe gold will do better than the dollar, though the dollar is not a very good measuring instrument.. .are you wanting to say gold is going to do as well as bitcoin in terms of hookers, lambos, blow and other real world goods, services and properties (such as real estate)?  I have my doubts, especially if you might consider pricing gold in terms of bitcoin rather than getting distracted into poor measuring sticks such as pricing in dollars (or other fiat).

I would say that they cannot be compared,

yes they can.  Gold is inferior to bitcoin, and bitcoin has been eating gold's lunch and will likely continue to eat gold's lunch in terms of monetary premium kinds of measurements... but sure, you can choose to live in a fantasy and act as if gold is holding its own and blah blah blah, when it is not.  It is not holding its own in any material, meaningful and/or substantial way in comparison to bitcoin.

there are many intrinsic things that are different between the assets,

Gold is intrinsic because it is physical?  Get real... that is not sufficient, even though gold might will serve better than bitcoin during certain kinds of Armageddon scenarios that might end up happening.. perhaps.

much less put one against the other or in the form of competition, for me both are safe havens of value.

Good luck with your distraction into believing that your gold is going to come even close to giving you as much stability and/or appreciation in the coming years.. and yeah, maybe you might want to discount me for considering bitcoin having more pumpamentals in terms bitcoin being in early stages of adoption, and sure yeah there is some unfairness in that, yet if you have some kind of clue about what bitcoin is, then you better be careful if you are allocating much more than 10% of your networth or  portfolio value into gold as compared with bitcoin... ... so whatever allocation that you have gold/bitcoin, you should be considering no more than 10% of the value of your bitcoin into gold.. but hey whatever you can do what you like and have fun staying poor in terms of bitcoin quite likely continuing to eat gold's lunch in terms oof the more sound money and the Gresham's law type principles in which the soundest money is spent last (which happens to be bitcoin and people are increasingly figuring out bitcoin in regards to its superiority to gold.. it is not just a "young person's thing" as you are trying to dismissively and erroneously framing bitcoin in such ways).

[EarnOnVictor]

I am also not one of the people who believe Bitcoin will meet Gold in market capitalization

You don't believe Bitcoin can do a 14x, when it's been doubling every year on average for the last few years?

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

The physical value is only a tiny fraction of its monetary value. Gold is valuated at where it is, because it has had the best money properties until 2009. Same like, Bitcoin is valuated at where it is, because it is recognized as the best money in terms of monetary properties. It is not valuated at $1T, *just* for being peer-to-peer cash system.

Really? That's a misconception, over $12T worth of Gold has been mined so far. But let's pretend such a huge worth has not been mined, don't you think more people will still prefer Gold because it is a name with physical representation than Bitcoin which is entirely virtual?

https://www.gold.org/goldhub/research/market-primer/gold-market-primer-market-size-and-structure.

[JayJuanGee]

I am also not one of the people who believe Bitcoin will meet Gold in market capitalization

You don't believe Bitcoin can do a 14x, when it's been doubling every year on average for the last few years?

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

The physical value is only a tiny fraction of its monetary value. Gold is valuated at where it is, because it has had the best money properties until 2009. Same like, Bitcoin is valuated at where it is, because it is recognized as the best money in terms of monetary properties. It is not valuated at $1T, *just* for being peer-to-peer cash system.

Really? That's a misconception, over $12T worth of Gold has been mined so far. But let's pretend such a huge worth has not been mined, don't you think more people will still prefer Gold because it is a name with physical representation than Bitcoin which is entirely virtual?

https://www.gold.org/goldhub/research/market-primer/gold-market-primer-market-size-and-structure.

Through the years, we have had similar gold pumping and bitcoin naysaying discussions and the gold holders have not done too well as compared with bitcoin, so sometimes it is surprising to see those same largely debunked arguments reviving themselves.

Good luck with your gold investment (relative to bitcoin) you are going to need it.

Hopefully, you are not so short-sighted as to be putting more than 10% of your value into gold as compared with what you put into bitcoin (and even 10% relative to bitcoin might be a bit high), yet of course, you are free to allocate your time, energy and value however you like and see how it fares for you.

[EarnOnVictor]

I am also not one of the people who believe Bitcoin will meet Gold in market capitalization

You don't believe Bitcoin can do a 14x, when it's been doubling every year on average for the last few years?

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

The physical value is only a tiny fraction of its monetary value. Gold is valuated at where it is, because it has had the best money properties until 2009. Same like, Bitcoin is valuated at where it is, because it is recognized as the best money in terms of monetary properties. It is not valuated at $1T, *just* for being peer-to-peer cash system.

Really? That's a misconception, over $12T worth of Gold has been mined so far. But let's pretend such a huge worth has not been mined, don't you think more people will still prefer Gold because it is a name with physical representation than Bitcoin which is entirely virtual?

https://www.gold.org/goldhub/research/market-primer/gold-market-primer-market-size-and-structure.

Through the years, we have had similar gold pumping and bitcoin naysaying discussions and the gold holders have not done too well as compared with bitcoin, so sometimes it is surprising to see those same largely debunked arguments reviving themselves.

Good luck with your gold investment (relative to bitcoin) you are going to need it.

Hopefully, you are not so short-sighted as to be putting more than 10% of your value into gold as compared with what you put into bitcoin (and even 10% relative to bitcoin might be a bit high), yet of course, you are free to allocate your time, energy and value however you like and see how it fares for you.

For starters, you misrepresented the point, if you reread what you replied to from the beginning, you will realise that I wasn't talking about ROI possibility but the market capitalization, Gold is compressed to avoid inflation, so it can never beat Bitcoin in ROI with its current structure.

Nevertheless, it's my choice to put all my money in Gold but my experience in investment will not allow me, and a big Thank You for that advice, you deserve it. And if you must know, I invest more in Bitcoin than Gold for the higher ROI possibility (simple wisdom). But that will NEVER blind my eyes to the truth, unlike many others.

And when it comes to the asset that won in market capitalization, Gold has it, which was the genesis of this discussion unless you have different statistics from the one known by the world.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

Buddy, gold is a dead rock, and it's getting demonetized, because it's no longer the best money. Back in the gold standard, and during the 20th century, it was the best money, but not anymore. It's not just Bitcoin, it's the fact that technology advanced, and we can extract gold much easier and in larger sums than before. This factor makes it less good as a money.

But even without that in mind, Bitcoin has been rising by more than 100% every year on average, for the last few years, while gold has remained the same more or less. That, alone, should answer your question.

[Cryptoprincess101]

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

Buddy, gold is a dead rock, and it's getting demonetized, because it's no longer the best money. Back in the gold standard, and during the 20th century, it was the best money, but not anymore. It's not just Bitcoin, it's the fact that technology advanced, and we can extract gold much easier and in larger sums than before. This factor makes it less good as a money.

But even without that in mind, Bitcoin has been rising by more than 100% every year on average, for the last few years, while gold has remained the same more or less. That, alone, should answer your question.

One of the things that is inevitable in life is revolution because that is what keeps the world advancing so i think the era when gold was seen as the most valuable asset is coming to an end since bitcoin has now surfaced and bitcoin will also continue to be in dominance till maybe something else evolve and also subdue the value of bitcoin but for now i doubt if there is anything than can contest in worth and values as bitcoin. Gold has been in dominance since 600 BCE so it's time for it to give way to the greatest invention of our time (bitcoin).

[CryptoBuds]

One of the things that is inevitable in life is revolution because that is what keeps the world advancing so i think the era when gold was seen as the most valuable asset is coming to an end since bitcoin has now surfaced and bitcoin will also continue to be in dominance till maybe something else evolve and also subdue the value of bitcoin but for now i doubt if there is anything than can contest in worth and values as bitcoin. Gold has been in dominance since 600 BCE so it's time for it to give way to the greatest invention of our time (bitcoin).

To be fair, bitcoin is a worthy competitor to gold but it is still too early to say that the appeal of gold or the era of gold is over and now it is the era of bitcoin and crypto.

We should be realistic that bitcoin is still not as popular as gold, and gold is still the top choice of governments and major investors. As far as I know, countries like Russia, China and many others are still buying gold in large quantities, not bitcoin. That shows they still value gold more than any other asset for national reserves. Moreover, the demand for gold is not limited to being an asset or investment but it is also applied in many industries. So I think gold may no longer be an attractive investment but it is still a safe haven option, a hedge against future inflation.


As for bitcoin, it is considered the best growth asset ever, so it can surpass gold, but that will not happen in the next 1 or 2 years. We need more time for bitcoin to take over and become the best investment.

[Cryptoprincess101]

One of the things that is inevitable in life is revolution because that is what keeps the world advancing so i think the era when gold was seen as the most valuable asset is coming to an end since bitcoin has now surfaced and bitcoin will also continue to be in dominance till maybe something else evolve and also subdue the value of bitcoin but for now i doubt if there is anything than can contest in worth and values as bitcoin. Gold has been in dominance since 600 BCE so it's time for it to give way to the greatest invention of our time (bitcoin).

To be fair, bitcoin is a worthy competitor to gold but it is still too early to say that the appeal of gold or the era of gold is over and now it is the era of bitcoin and crypto.

I didn't say that the appeal of Gold has come to an end but it's nearing the end of it's popularity like it has been in the past

We should be realistic that bitcoin is still not as popular as gold, and gold is still the top choice of governments and major investors. As far as I know, countries like Russia, China and many others are still buying gold in large quantities, not bitcoin. That shows they still value gold more than any other asset for national reserves. Moreover, the demand for gold is not limited to being an asset or investment but it is also applied in many industries. So I think gold may no longer be an attractive investment but it is still a safe haven option, a hedge against future inflation.

Sure, gold is a valuable financial asset and i do not argue the fact that a lot of people still sort after it and even though bitcoin has become a developing asset that will take over from Gold but it is understandable that there are people who will still choose Gold over bitcoin maybe due to affordability or just a normal love for Gold than bitcoin and moreover since there are people who could not afford Gold that's also same way there will also be people who may not afford bitcoin.

As for bitcoin, it is considered the best growth asset ever, so it can surpass gold, but that will not happen in the next 1 or 2 years. We need more time for bitcoin to take over and become the best investment.

Bitcoin has shown good moves in recent years so it does not matter how long it will take to be considered as the best investment ever even though it's still developing.

[JayJuanGee]

I am also not one of the people who believe Bitcoin will meet Gold in market capitalization

You don't believe Bitcoin can do a 14x, when it's been doubling every year on average for the last few years?

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

The physical value is only a tiny fraction of its monetary value. Gold is valuated at where it is, because it has had the best money properties until 2009. Same like, Bitcoin is valuated at where it is, because it is recognized as the best money in terms of monetary properties. It is not valuated at $1T, *just* for being peer-to-peer cash system.

Really? That's a misconception, over $12T worth of Gold has been mined so far. But let's pretend such a huge worth has not been mined, don't you think more people will still prefer Gold because it is a name with physical representation than Bitcoin which is entirely virtual?

https://www.gold.org/goldhub/research/market-primer/gold-market-primer-market-size-and-structure.

Through the years, we have had similar gold pumping and bitcoin naysaying discussions and the gold holders have not done too well as compared with bitcoin, so sometimes it is surprising to see those same largely debunked arguments reviving themselves.

Good luck with your gold investment (relative to bitcoin) you are going to need it.

Hopefully, you are not so short-sighted as to be putting more than 10% of your value into gold as compared with what you put into bitcoin (and even 10% relative to bitcoin might be a bit high), yet of course, you are free to allocate your time, energy and value however you like and see how it fares for you.

For starters, you misrepresented the point, if you reread what you replied to from the beginning, you will realise that I wasn't talking about ROI possibility but the market capitalization, Gold is compressed to avoid inflation, so it can never beat Bitcoin in ROI with its current structure.

I think that I understood and sufficiently responded to your convoluted and misleading point well enough.

Nevertheless, it's my choice to put all my money in Gold but my experience in investment will not allow me, and a big Thank You for that advice, you deserve it.

You are likely being sarcastic, and I was responding publicly, not to just you, since this is a public thread, and hopefully no one would have misunderstood your earlier point to suggest that any kind of meaningful allocation to gold would be prudent, except perhaps in some exceptional cases.

And if you must know, I invest more in Bitcoin than Gold for the higher ROI possibility (simple wisdom). But that will NEVER blind my eyes to the truth, unlike many others.

Yes.  Your version of the truth is to have some fantasy vision of gold, and hopefully, you are not just a little bit more invested into bitcoin, but instead something like not allocating any more than 10% the value of your bitcoin holdings into gold....

So for example, I tend to suggest that beginner investors into bitcoin consider anywhere between 5% and 25% of their overall investment portfolio into bitcoin, and sure they can go outside of that range, but that has been my recommendation since about early to mid 2020, prior to that I recommended 1% to 10% to bitcoin as a starting allocation, and surely each person has to tailor to his own situation so if he is more bullish about bitcoin, then he would invest towards the higher end of the range and if he is less bullish, then he would invest towards the lower end of the range.  In the end, surely any person who has studied bitcoin and/or his situation more would be able to go beyond what I was recommending as a initial starting range to consider.

My assertion is that if a guy had decided to invest around 15% of his investment portfolio into bitcoin, then hopefully no more than 10% of that would be in gold, so his gold holdings would be no more than 1.5% of his total overall investment portfolio.

And when it comes to the asset that won in market capitalization, Gold has it, which was the genesis of this discussion unless you have different statistics from the one known by the world.

I think that we are currently working with similar statistics in terms of bitcoin having right around a $1.3 trillion market cap and gold having right around $17 trillion market cap.  You seem to have a different spin on the significance of that, and whatever, you can spin whatever you like.  More or less right now bitcoin has about 1/15th of gold's market cap, yet at the same time bitcoin is likely valued around 1,000x more than gold, so it may well take 50-200 years for the valuation to be more accurately reflected in relative BTC versus gold prices, whether BTC goes up or gold comes down or some combination of the two.

One of the things that is inevitable in life is revolution because that is what keeps the world advancing so i think the era when gold was seen as the most valuable asset is coming to an end since bitcoin has now surfaced and bitcoin will also continue to be in dominance till maybe something else evolve and also subdue the value of bitcoin but for now i doubt if there is anything than can contest in worth and values as bitcoin. Gold has been in dominance since 600 BCE so it's time for it to give way to the greatest invention of our time (bitcoin).

To be fair, bitcoin is a worthy competitor to gold but it is still too early to say that the appeal of gold or the era of gold is over and now it is the era of bitcoin and crypto.

First.  There is no need to bring up shitcoins, and to convolute the point with bitcoin "and crypto" since crypto is largely irrelevant.

Try to stay focused.  We are talking about bitcoin versus gold, so no need to deviate into gobbledee gook talk.


If you cannot recognize that bitcoin is already the superior asset and that value is going to continue to gravitate into bitcoin with the likely loss of more and more importance of value being stored in gold, then too bad for you to be failing/refusing to recognize, appreciate the more valuable asset (namely bitcoin) so that you would be able to allocate appropriately into bitcoin and mostly lessen or minimize your exposure to gold.

Yet, whatever, you can do what you like if you would like to stay allocated to gold then have fun with that... You may or may not be able to at least outperform the dollar, while at the same time your lunch will continue to get eaten by bitcoin if you know how to measure the value of your gold allocation as compared with the value of your bitcoin allocation.

We should be realistic that bitcoin is still not as popular as gold, and gold is still the top choice of governments and major investors.

Are you trying to convince guys here to allocate to gold?  Just in case gold might be able to pull a rabbit out of a hat?

You've been registered on the forum since 2015, so have you been able to figure out what bitcoin is in the last 9-ish years?  Do you think that governments, institutions and/or individuals or going to keep investing into gold when bitcoin is superior in terms of various money aspects?  Bitcoin is better in regards to verifiability, transportability, scarcity, divisibility, costs associated with third parties and other aspects too.   

You seem deluded if you are still on the gold train, or maybe you just need to spend a bit more time trying to study and/or figure out bitcoin - which more and more people are new to bitcoin and they are figuring out that bitcoin is amongst the best, if not the best of monies ever known to mankind, so even if it might take a bit of time for value to gravitate into bitcoin (as compared with other assets, including but not limited to gold), the process of value gravitating into bitcoin is ongoing, so best if you try to recognize it and get ahead of it, instead of denying that it is taking place.

As far as I know, countries like Russia, China and many others are still buying gold in large quantities, not bitcoin.

As far as you know, you are praying for the old ideas to persist, even though a better monetary unit is here and even though many of the countries (big and small) are also getting more and more and more involved in bitcoin.. sometimes overtly and sometimes covertly.

That shows they still value gold more than any other asset for national reserves.

Good luck with those old arguments and perspectives, you are going to likely need some luck when you have that kind of a perspective..,. but luck is not likely even on your side if you believe that you should be allocating into gold rather than bitcoin.. or even allocating any more than 10% of your assets into gold as compared with what you have into bitcoin.

Moreover, the demand for gold is not limited to being an asset or investment but it is also applied in many industries.

In regards to bitcoin, monetary premium is the ONLY one that really matters.  Sure gold has some value in the physical world, but that is hardly what gives gold its value... and when it comes to monetary premium, bitcoin is way more efficient than a lot of assets in terms of how bitcoin is mostly only monetary premium as compared with other less efficient ways that value is held, whether we are referring to gold and its industrial use or we are referring to various other ways that excess value is held in residential properties, equities and in other ways in part because various kinds of fiats are ongoingly debased so people search where to hold their monetary premium so that their monetary value does not get debased away from them if they were to hold such value in cash.

So I think gold may no longer be an attractive investment but it is still a safe haven option, a hedge against future inflation.

It is not as good as bitcoin.  Sure it might do better than cash.. perhaps? but it won't do better than bitcoin in terms of being a hedge against the debasement of the dollar (and other fiat).  Try moving $10 million in gold versus bitcoin... also same thing is true with going across the borders with $20k.. try it with gold and see how it works out for you.

As for bitcoin, it is considered the best growth asset ever, so it can surpass gold, but that will not happen in the next 1 or 2 years. We need more time for bitcoin to take over and become the best investment.

Where have you been in the last 10 years?  It is already happening, it continues to happen and it will continue to happen.

You can be blind to the matter, or you can try to get ahead of the matter.  The writing is on the wall, and sure, you can choose to ignore it and continue to pump gold as if it were to even have close to a chance as compared with bitcoin.. and you likely are not going to fare as well if you are overly allocating into gold as compared to allocating in bitcoin.. and personally, I think you are nearly completely wasting your time since bitcoin is around 1,000x better than gold, yet it is ONLY around 1/15th the price of gold right now in terms of market cap... so you make your choice about whether to do something now or to wait until the difference in value shrinks more. .and where bitcoin takes its rightful place of having a market value that is around 1,000x greater than gold.

[EarnOnVictor]

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

Buddy, gold is a dead rock, and it's getting demonetized, because it's no longer the best money. Back in the gold standard, and during the 20th century, it was the best money, but not anymore. It's not just Bitcoin, it's the fact that technology advanced, and we can extract gold much easier and in larger sums than before.

Let me be sincere with you now, I opened my mouth wide for seconds in amazement at what you said, what???

I would have loved it if you backed your claims with some points, perhaps some links and statistics to prove what you said. I won't say much, but let me say this, If Gold is a "dead rock" and is being "demonetized" as you claimed, how come it attracted over $5T in investment this year alone?

[STT]

I love this argument exists because its probably bullish for both assets.   Most people are considering neither and the progression away from the status quo of decades has alot further to go before 'full' in any way.

   The world is heavily biased to FIAT and one particular brand of FIAT which is the biggest thing thats going to change.  I do doubt any singular path will become the new alternative and replacement for Dollar.   Even if you thought that, first the situation will fracture and many alternative assets will be used.   Thats my simple take.

Over thousands of years we have had much technological development, Bitcoin is unique but also its part of that process.  The only constant is change, we are and will change but also it wont alter that change has been considerable in the past also.

Its all fair discussion, go back to beginnings of BTC and Im sure it was debated similarly then also.   Why would Satoshi bother if gold is so great, he wasn't any fool and was aware of many details to the events of 2008 before and after, he did bother for good reasons.
   I see the point of gold is that it lasts without needing any central bank its just an element of some worth and characteristic; there is some small use for it and its unique.

  In my opinion its not in competition, ironically an ASIC BTC circuit would use gold most likely.  I dont see the decline of its use as its been unpopular at times previous also but on a long term time frame its always the same; it did arguably fall for most of a decade after peaking in 2011 (also 1981~).
  Karl Marx existed on 82 ounces of gold a year given by an industrialist friend, he is buried in London not far from where they set the world gold price twice daily.  I like simplicity but not absolute where we attempt to bleach out detail; life is alot more interwoven varied and repeating in a pattern beyond the brief generation we represent.

[JayJuanGee]

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

Buddy, gold is a dead rock, and it's getting demonetized, because it's no longer the best money. Back in the gold standard, and during the 20th century, it was the best money, but not anymore. It's not just Bitcoin, it's the fact that technology advanced, and we can extract gold much easier and in larger sums than before.

Let me be sincere with you now, I opened my mouth wide for seconds in amazement at what you said, what???

I would have loved it if you backed your claims with some points, perhaps some links and statistics to prove what you said. I won't say much, but let me say this, If Gold is a "dead rock" and is being "demonetized" as you claimed, how come it attracted over $5T in investment this year alone?

You have already made your various arguments, and good for you if you love gold so much that you believe that it deserves any more than 10% the size of your bitcoin holdings, and even 10% may well be too much, and you can have fun staying poor if you are allocating greater amounts than that..

Also, if you are smarter than the bitcoiners and gold pumps while bitcoin stays stagnant, then great on you for being such a smartie pants in your playing with your dead rock that had not only been demonetized but paperized into mostly irrelevancy (if not its own death).

[As-Soon-As]

Listening was valuable in the past, when Bitcoin was not.  So the value of Bitcoin is very high at present and its demand is increasing with time, but gold is a dead asset. Gold has gained only a fraction of what it was in the past, but you'll notice that the price of Bitcoin is averaging more than 100 percent plus every year. Both gold and banks are in the same category, but Bitcoin is much more modern and different from them and is the most powerful digital currency of today. 
With its price steadily increasing and getting older in the future, in just about 15 years, Bitcoin has created a lot of buzz around the world as the best coin in the world today.

[Dump3er]

I think capitalization is something that is quite extensive to explain, but it is necessary to point out something, gold has a much longer history than BTC and that is something that has weight, now BTC is the asset of the future and many young people prefer BTC more than gold itself, so everything is a matter of changes in the world, the most accepted without a doubt is gold, but the most desired worldwide is to have BTC, both represent money and it is not a secret that having both is the smartest.

You have not presented any reason why both gold and bitcoin is smart and/or why the holding any gold is actually smart, especially when bitcoin does almost everything that gold does, except better.  Perhaps the ONLY reason to hold gold is for Armageddon purposes, or perhaps if there is already a good gold network in your geography... .. yet there maybe quite a bit of prudence, even for the guy choosing to hold some gold to actually mostly move over to bitcoin with 90-95% of his value in bitcoin and perhaps at most 5% to 10% the value of his bitcoin holding might be permissible to hold in gold for Armageddon or whatever outsided scenario that is anticipated in which bitcoin might not be a possibility.

At the market level, gold has gained a lot of value, BTC too,

For Armageddon cases I would rather hold BTC. Can take it with me to the moon just in case the psychopath Elon Musk has the rockets ready. Can't take all the gold with me, but can take billions in BTC with me and the chance that in a nuclear war BTC is recoverable, the chance is much higher than any of my gold is recoverable during my lifetime.

It is pretty interesting how some people do either not understand, or lie about the facts.

At the market level, gold has gained a lot of value, BTC too,

At the market level, gold has achieved barely anything compared to BTC if we look at it from the perspective of an investor. It did preserve value and it did improve value, that is true. But the LUCKMCFLY puts it, it is disguising the truth.

At first I thought my thread wouldn't gain any interest pooya87 and JJG were the first to value the discussion I kicked off. I know that pooya87 doesn't agree with everything I would ever say, but did at least show a sign of respect for the work someone puts in. I respect that. I am even more happy about the fact that there is some back and forth here now.

I am also not one of the people who believe Bitcoin will meet Gold in market capitalization

You don't believe Bitcoin can do a 14x, when it's been doubling every year on average for the last few years?

Nothing reads 14x in what you replied to, it's all about the market capitalization of Gold and Bitcoin. If Bitcoin rises 14x, will Gold remain the same? It's a simple arithmetic.

The physical value is only a tiny fraction of its monetary value. Gold is valuated at where it is, because it has had the best money properties until 2009. Same like, Bitcoin is valuated at where it is, because it is recognized as the best money in terms of monetary properties. It is not valuated at $1T, *just* for being peer-to-peer cash system.

Really? That's a misconception, over $12T worth of Gold has been mined so far. But let's pretend such a huge worth has not been mined, don't you think more people will still prefer Gold because it is a name with physical representation than Bitcoin which is entirely virtual?

https://www.gold.org/goldhub/research/market-primer/gold-market-primer-market-size-and-structure.

I assume that you try to suggest that if Bitcoin rises, gold will rise by a lot. Can you please, I ask you for a last time, last try, have a look at my excel table in the first post? Do you understand why I standardized gold ounces and calculated the multipliers to mBTC? I have paid attention to the fact that I don't just write another copy thread, I wanted to share an observation that made me excited myself and I have never painted that picture so clearly for myself. That is why I did the maths. The fact of the matter is that BTC went thousands and thousands of X while gold did nothing but go sideways.

Now tell me about the simple arithmetic that you are finding to be true, just let us know.

My guess is if gold doubles for whatever reason, BTC will go at least 6x, probably 8x in the same time. Now my real expectation is even more bullish, but to not shy you away from saying something here, I want to try to at least give you another shot to explain your arithmetic (as it is so simple).

Note: talkimg.com seems to be down for the moment. I'll upload it as soon as I found an alternative. Just read my analysis and draw your own arithmetic conclusions.

[JayJuanGee]

I think capitalization is something that is quite extensive to explain, but it is necessary to point out something, gold has a much longer history than BTC and that is something that has weight, now BTC is the asset of the future and many young people prefer BTC more than gold itself, so everything is a matter of changes in the world, the most accepted without a doubt is gold, but the most desired worldwide is to have BTC, both represent money and it is not a secret that having both is the smartest.

You have not presented any reason why both gold and bitcoin is smart and/or why the holding any gold is actually smart, especially when bitcoin does almost everything that gold does, except better.  Perhaps the ONLY reason to hold gold is for Armageddon purposes, or perhaps if there is already a good gold network in your geography... .. yet there maybe quite a bit of prudence, even for the guy choosing to hold some gold to actually mostly move over to bitcoin with 90-95% of his value in bitcoin and perhaps at most 5% to 10% the value of his bitcoin holding might be permissible to hold in gold for Armageddon or whatever outsided scenario that is anticipated in which bitcoin might not be a possibility.

For Armageddon cases I would rather hold BTC. Can take it with me to the moon just in case the psychopath Elon Musk has the rockets ready.

Let's try to be a bit more realistic.

I was trying to give some kind of a benefit of the doubt to some kind of a scenario that could play out in which there was no longer internet, electronic communication and/or electricity and/or some kinds of a scenario in which bitcoin would lose all or most of its value due to such hypotheticals playing out and gold would become relevant as some kind of a monetary intermediary.  

I doubt those kinds of scenarios are very likely, and I doubt that spaceships would be a part of such a scenario.. and truly seems stupid for anyone to actually believe that within our lifetimes (even within 100 years absent some kind of strong evidence showing livable systems) any kind of quality of life could be achieved off of this particular planet.

Can't take all the gold with me, but can take billions in BTC with me and the chance that in a nuclear war BTC is recoverable, the chance is much higher than any of my gold is recoverable during my lifetime.

It is pretty interesting how some people do either not understand, or lie about the facts.

I doubt that it is even very helpful to try to figure out how a variety of possible fringe scenarios might play out in order to attempt to figure out some kind of reasonable allocation in terms of bitcoin versus gold versus whatever else that we might want to invest into, and surely it can be difficult to get allocation matters correct in any specific way, even though there may be ways to have some directional correctness and also preparedness for a variety of possible directional scenarios, without necessarily getting into particulars.. so we should be attempting to prepare for a variety of scenarios, including more likely scenarios and at the same time having some preparedness for outlier fringe scenarios, yet it still seems a bit crazy to put more than 1% preparations into scenarios that may have way less than 1% chances of playing out...yet each of us has to figure out how much resources, time, energy and or value to place in each of a variety of scenarios that might even have fringe chances of playing out.