Decentralized exchange with UI/UX similar to Coinbase, Binance, etc.

[TimFornash]

Hello everyone!

So right now I am in the beginning stages of commissioning the development of a decentralized exchange, where people will be able to trade Bitcoin, Monero, and DAI. It will have an off-chain order book and critically, it will be simple and easy to use - if you're familiar with using any of the mainstream exchanges, using this one will be easy. No messing around in the command prompt, downloading the blockchain, running local nodes, opening ports, or anything like that. If you can download and install my desktop application, you should have no problem getting this up and running.

It will use third-party nodes instead of centralized servers. (Unlike trading on the exchange, I imagine setting up one of these nodes will probably require above-average computer skills.)

We won't have the the private keys to any wallets holding customer funds, nor will the nodes.

If anyone has any questions or suggestions, or reasons why this won't work, please let me know. I'm very interested in getting feedback on this idea. And what I cannot figure out is why something like this doesn't exist already.

Thanks for reading this.

-Tim

[OmegaStarScream]

So in other words, you're trying to build something similar to what Thorchain has built? One of the main issues with that service in my opinion, is liquidity. Do you have anything in mind on how you can resolve that issue? or incentivize people to provide liquidity?

I would also imagine that this is going to be open source, correct? It's difficult for people to fully trust a service that claims to be non custodial and decentralized, if it's not open source.

[shield132]

Hello everyone!

So right now I am in the beginning stages of commissioning the development of a decentralized exchange, where people will be able to trade Bitcoin, Monero, and DAI. It will have an off-chain order book and critically, it will be simple and easy to use - if you're familiar with using any of the mainstream exchanges, using this one will be easy. No messing around in the command prompt, downloading the blockchain, running local nodes, opening ports, or anything like that. If you can download and install my desktop application, you should have no problem getting this up and running.

It will use third-party nodes instead of centralized servers. (Unlike trading on the exchange, I imagine setting up one of these nodes will probably require above-average computer skills.)

We won't have the the private keys to any wallets holding customer funds, nor will the nodes.

If anyone has any questions or suggestions, or reasons why this won't work, please let me know. I'm very interested in getting feedback on this idea. And what I cannot figure out is why something like this doesn't exist already.

Thanks for reading this.

-Tim

Is this a solo project? If yes, then how experienced are you? What is an off-chain order book? I am not familiar with decentralized exchanges but recently I've been very interested in them because they promise freedom, ownership and anonymity. I've only tested Bisq and what I especially like about Bisq is that it automatically connects you to Tor and improves your anonymity. If you manage something similar in your product, that will be good.
Decentralized exchanges really lack good UI/UX because it's the least of their priorities but if you focus on that, I believe you'll attract many people. I'm a UI/UX designer myself and I like both websites' UI but I prefer Binance's UI/UX design.

[TimFornash]

So in other words, you're trying to build something similar to what Thorchain has built? One of the main issues with that service in my opinion, is liquidity. Do you have anything in mind on how you can resolve that issue? or incentivize people to provide liquidity?

Somewhat similar to Thorchain, but it will be a desktop application, not a website.

As far as pricing/liquidity goes, the main issue with Thorchain seems to be the exorbitant fees. Thorchain has no limit orders, and the fees on a market order are typically 0.5% both ways. Hence the terrible liquidity. The Fornash DEX would charge 0.25% to the maker and 0% to the taker.

This DEX will be the only one available where people can trade BTC and DAI for Monero without KYC on a platform that only charges 0.25%. The cheapest other no-KYC platform for Monero is Bisq, and that charges 0.7%, has a complicated, confusing UI, and requires people to lock up 15% of the value of the trade in BTC.

I would also imagine that this is going to be open source, correct? It's difficult for people to fully trust a service that claims to be non custodial and decentralized, if it's not open source.

Yes, it will be open source.

Is this a solo project? If yes, then how experienced are you?

This is (for now at least) a solo project. I have been trading crypto for almost a decade, but my tech skills are pretty basic. However, I think that can end up being a good thing, because the problem with having a tech wizard make a DEX is they tend to assume everyone else is a wizard too, and so the UX ends up being way too complicated.

What is an off-chain order book? I am not familiar with decentralized exchanges but recently I've been very interested in them because they promise freedom, ownership and anonymity. I've only tested Bisq and what I especially like about Bisq is that it automatically connects you to Tor and improves your anonymity. If you manage something similar in your product, that will be good.

An off-chain order book means the exchanges that take place on the DEX happen through the DEX's internal accounting system as opposed to the blockchain. So let's say you deposit DAI and use it to buy Monero, exchange the Monero for Bitcoin, and then withdraw the Bitcoin from your account. When the exchange takes place, the assets don't move on the blockchain; the DEX will adjust your account balance from DAI to Monero, and then from Monero to Bitcoin. When you deposit the DAI and withdraw the Bitcoin, that of course would take place on the blockchain.

So in that respect, it would be like a centralized exchange. But the owner of the DEX (me) won't have the private key to the wallets on the blockchain where customer funds are deposited. And neither would the node operators; all they would do is process the adjustments to the DEX's internal accounting system when assets are swapped, in exchange for a slice of the transaction fees.

Decentralized exchanges really lack good UI/UX because it's the least of their priorities but if you focus on that, I believe you'll attract many people. I'm a UI/UX designer myself and I like both websites' UI but I prefer Binance's UI/UX design.

The main problem with the current DEXes is absolutely 100% what you just said: they lack a good UI/UX. Look at something like UnstoppableSwap. Fantastic technology, but using it to do anything other than buy Monero with Bitcoin requires more technical know-how than 99% of Monero users have.

Thanks for the feedback so far. Any more comments or suggestions that anyone has, I'm all ears.

[examplens]

It will use third-party nodes instead of centralized servers. (Unlike trading on the exchange, I imagine setting up one of these nodes will probably require above-average computer skills.)

Using a third-party node sounds to me quite centralized and at the same time quite dependent on a third party that doesn't even know about its role in this.

The main problem with the current DEXes is absolutely 100% what you just said: they lack a good UI/UX. Look at something like UnstoppableSwap. Fantastic technology, but using it to do anything other than buy Monero with Bitcoin requires more technical know-how than 99% of Monero users have.

I completely agree with you on this. Desperate UI is the biggest reason why I rarely use the most popular DEX. Some improvements here would be very welcome.

[TimFornash]

Using a third-party node sounds to me quite centralized and at the same time quite dependent on a third party that doesn't even know about its role in this.

Nodes, plural. There would be more than one of them. Any tech-savvy person with the DEX would be able to set one up. So not at all centralized.

And that's assuming we even need them. I talk to the developers on Friday, and I am going to bring up this point: could a bunch of people running the DEX on their desktops connect to each other without nodes, or are they going to end up being necessary.

And about the UI/UX issue: I don't understand how developers consistently and without fail spend the amount of money required to make something like Bisq, UnstoppableSwap, etc and think that everyone else is as technologically sophisticated as they are, and that the user experience somehow doesn't matter. That's the main problem that I intend to solve.

[dkbit98]

This DEX will be the only one available where people can trade BTC and DAI for Monero without KYC on a platform that only charges 0.25%. The cheapest other no-KYC platform for Monero is Bisq, and that charges 0.7%, has a complicated, confusing UI, and requires people to lock up 15% of the value of the trade in BTC.

So if I understand this correctly you are creating dex exchange for trading crypto only, there is no fiat currencies available?
We already have Bisq exchange and forked HavenoDex (RetoSwap) that have both crypto and fiat trading options.
Making everything from scratch doesn't sound like a good idea when we already have something that works fine (Bisq, Haveno, Basicswap, etc.).

[Vod]

If anyone has any questions or suggestions, or reasons why this won't work, please let me know. I'm very interested in getting feedback on this idea. And what I cannot figure out is why something like this doesn't exist already.

The idea could work, but the regulations will kill you.  You've been trading crypto for a decade - everything legal?   The government will strip search your entire crypto history before giving you a license to exchange.

[TimFornash]

So if I understand this correctly you are creating dex exchange for trading crypto only, there is no fiat currencies available?
We already have Bisq exchange and forked HavenoDex (RetoSwap) that have both crypto and fiat trading options.
Making everything from scratch doesn't sound like a good idea when we already have something that works fine (Bisq, Haveno, Basicswap, etc.).

Right, this is not a fiat on- or off-ramp.

Bisq and HavenoDex are a pain in the ass to use. And BasicSwap? Forget about it! You have to do a bunch of crap in the command prompt, and set up a full node for any coin you're trying to trade... don't get me started on Basicswap. That sort of exchange is basically what inspired me to work on my user-friendly DEX.

[Vod]

And about the UI/UX issue: I don't understand how developers consistently and without fail spend the amount of money required to make something like Bisq, UnstoppableSwap, etc and think that everyone else is as technologically sophisticated as they are, and that the user experience somehow doesn't matter. That's the main problem that I intend to solve.

OK, now you have me interested.  UI has always been one of my biggest complaints.  You can see it in Windows, where there are at least three different styles.   Items are moved between menus and buttons and links almost randomly, as if Microsoft is just seeing what is accepted amd evolves.  

New technologies will always change the UI, but there should be consistency between the changes.   Tech over my head so I'll just observe.  

Related:  https://bitcoinbounties.org/code/privacy/2021/08/01/Web-UI-for-JoinMarket.html

[TimFornash]

I just had a call with the people at Chetu, the developers I'm going to employ. They said they could get it done within five months for $30,000! I thought it was going to be like half a million dollars.

[joniboini]

I just had a call with the people at Chetu, the developers I'm going to employ. They said they could get it done within five months for $30,000! I thought it was going to be like half a million dollars.

I'm not sure how reliable this review is but it seems like one of their clients had a terrible experience working with them[1]. I don't think they have a dedicated crypto portfolio either, CMIIW. What makes you choose them anyway? Do you have prior experience with them? I'm not sure how much it costs to develop a custom DEX so I can't comment much on the price they offer.

[1] https://www.serchen.com/company/chetu-2/

[TimFornash]

I just had a call with the people at Chetu, the developers I'm going to employ. They said they could get it done within five months for $30,000! I thought it was going to be like half a million dollars.

I'm not sure how reliable this review is but it seems like one of their clients had a terrible experience working with them[1]. I don't think they have a dedicated crypto portfolio either, CMIIW. What makes you choose them anyway? Do you have prior experience with them? I'm not sure how much it costs to develop a custom DEX so I can't comment much on the price they offer.

[1] https://www.serchen.com/company/chetu-2/

Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, I was checking into their background too and found that a) they don't have much in the way of crypto development experience, and b) they have a bunch of complaints.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/investigations/fast-growing-sunrise-software-company-buffeted-by-lawsuits-complaints/2911788/

I also have read that their contracts contain a non-disparagement clause, and that they will threaten to sue and keep the IP rights to the software they develop if you leave them a bad review! So yes, I'm going to go with a different development company.

I looked online for some companies with dApp development experience and sent out a bunch of requests for quotes. I'll hear back from them on Monday probably. Once I've spoken with them and made a decision I'll post something on here and hopefully get some more constructive feedback.

[joniboini]

I also have read that their contracts contain a non-disparagement clause, and that they will threaten to sue and keep the IP rights to the software they develop if you leave them a bad review! So yes, I'm going to go with a different development company.

That's bad. Is a contract like this legal in the US? Sounds like they forced their customer to be happy regardless of the products they developed for them. They do have many portfolios on their website, which is odd since most of them seem to be business-related apps. Maybe most of them don't really care about the quality of their apps anyway and just treat complaints from their customers when they feel like it.

[TimFornash]

So I have spoken to a few dApp development companies, and here is what I have taken away from it:

- To start, it's going to be Bitcoin (on the lightning network) and native Monero.

- The off-chain orderbook is a no-go. Customers will be more likely to trust a dApp powered by contracts they can see on the blockchain.

- It's cheaper to make a browser extension than it is to make a desktop application, so the Fornash DEX will be a browser extension.

- It's going to support limit orders and market orders, with bi-directional atomic swaps.

- Basically the same UI/UX as Uniswap V1.

Of the three companies I interviewed, LimeChain (limechain.tech) was by far the most impressive. They said they will have a quote for me some time next week. I'll post here again after I next speak with them.

[L4rs_]

Check out HyperLiquid if you want a NEW and POPULAR decentralized exchange (DEX). It's has such a nice UI and you can trade all common perps with up to 50x leverage, high liquidity etc check it out its really new and promising

Check my signature link for 4% savings on fees, btw.

[nestex_one]

So I have spoken to a few dApp development companies, and here is what I have taken away from it:

- To start, it's going to be Bitcoin (on the lightning network) and native Monero.

- The off-chain orderbook is a no-go. Customers will be more likely to trust a dApp powered by contracts they can see on the blockchain.

- It's cheaper to make a browser extension than it is to make a desktop application, so the Fornash DEX will be a browser extension.

- It's going to support limit orders and market orders, with bi-directional atomic swaps.

- Basically the same UI/UX as Uniswap V1.

Of the three companies I interviewed, LimeChain (limechain.tech) was by far the most impressive. They said they will have a quote for me some time next week. I'll post here again after I next speak with them.

Sounds interesting! We are working on a CEX but I'll be following your project closely as I find its quite interesting.

Off-chain I don't think will be a large problem because even most current trading-oriented DEXs get you to 'transfer in' and then hold the money within their accounts. I'm talking about bullX or hyperliquid or suchlike.

Uniswap don't hold, since they're 'swapping' oriented. Likewise for Bisq or SimpleSwap or similar P2P swap utilities.

[Joel_Jantsen]

Interesting! Good to see someone constantly posting the project updates even before the project has commenced! $30k seemed too low to finish something of this scale. That always results in a loss of time, money, or both. The second vendor looks incredibly talented with their portfolio & the projects they've shipped. If the quotes align with your budget, I would recommend onboarding them. 

[linenoise]

Have you chatted with a good lawyer that is knowledgeable about crypto?  Which country to incorporate in and your legal agreements are going to be vital.

Good luck, a good exchange is always a welcome addition to crypto.

[TimFornash]

So LimeChain got back to me and told me to wait until early January for the estimate. I'll post here again when they next contact me.