Bitcoin mass adoption and transactions fees

[Phobos_Quake]

I'm worried about fees going too high when Bitcoin gets mass adopted. (I don't need to explain, 1 block every 10 minutes)

If Bitcoin fees go to $100 or more per transactions (Adjusted for inflation, i know $100 at some points will mean nothing), then it's not viable for low and middle class, for mundane tasks like transferring some to someone, DCA a monthly low amount,etc

Layer 2 doesn't seem to be the solution. Layer 2 means risk.
The beauty of Bitcoin is how secure it is to just store your Bitcoins on the layer 1

[ranochigo]

Why do you think that "Layer 2 means risk"? Care to share how L2 doesn't offer comparable security?

Layer 1 will never achieve that level of scalability, it's quite easy to see the tradeoffs between scalability and security on level 1 as well.

[ABCbits]

Without very rapid advancement of computer hardware, achieving decentralization, mass adaption and low fees at same time is near impossible task.

Why do you think that "Layer 2 means risk"? Care to share how L2 doesn't offer comparable security?

I think OP is talking about Layer 2 being less decentralized, see https://www.bitcoinlayers.org/.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I'm worried about fees going too high when Bitcoin gets mass adopted. (I don't need to explain, 1 block every 10 minutes)

If Bitcoin fees go to $100 or more per transactions, then it's not viable for low and middle class, for mundane tasks like transferring some to someone, DCA a monthly low amount,etc

Notice that you're contradicting yourself. If fees make it non-viable for middle class, how can it reach mass adoption?

There's no solution other than using an L2, unfortunately. And I get it, the most developed one right now, LN, is sometimes ugly and expensive to use, but there is more development on L2 that make use of lightning, like this one: https://arkdev.info/. Divided possession of an UTXO is one way to improve scaling drastically.

[d5000]

The beauty of Bitcoin is how secure it is to just store your Bitcoins on the layer 1

Just with Lightning, you would still be able to do that. You lock your Bitcoins in scripts which become Lightning channels, so they are stored there safely with Bitcoin's L1 guarantees.

If the channel is unidirectional and you are at the end of a Lightning "spoke", i.e. if you only use it to pay and not to receive money, then there is also no risk for the channel state to get "rewinded" to an earlier state. This means that in this case, there is no security tradeoff. Basically, you only "bundle your own transactions". If you open a LN channel with $10000 in it and pay $100 fees, Bitcoin is still competitive.

But even if you do participate actively in the Lightning routing (opining several channels in both directions), the security guarantees are still those of the Bitcoin consensus and you only have to monitor the state regularly to be able to initiate a channel close. There is no "middleman" like in the currently existing Ethereum rollups for example.

[s8n]

In its current state, I doubt there would be any mass adoption. Fees are horrible (even $2 for one TX is too high), and so is the confirmation time. I often paid a fee of a few dollars, only to wait +30 minutes for it. Just can not see what makes BTC, in its present form, a superior currency than for instance LTC.

Should fees rise even further, (as it was once $15-ish) I find it unlikely people will continue to rely on BTC as a viable payment method.

[Mia Chloe]

The logic is quite simple as adoption increases so also will price follow and that simply means that smaller unit of SATs will have bigger values and this would also mean that smaller amount of SATs will be paid as fees or transaction fees rather to miners. Layer 2 upgrade will not be a problem in fact it was a fork fix to improve efficiency of transaction by saving block space and as a result reducing congestion.

The only reason I see or fees becoming bigger is if congestion later becomes an issue and I really don't see that happening anytime soon besides there is always room for an upgrade. Little random congestions is quite normal sometimes but a general long session of congestion like something similar to what happened around 2017 and 2018 will be a little difficult.

[27QVUTZj8rgZP1]

I have been a crypto enthusiast for many years. And to me it seems Bitcoin deviated from its intended purpose.

Many things have changed these years, and even the average Joe is now buying crypto.

But many people are not buying Bitcoin because of its usefulness, they are buying to speculate (hoping its price will increase).

And yes, there are better alternatives to Bitcoin, simply because Bitcoin refused to improve. It is in the pride of being the first, but that alone won't make it successful in the long run. It is just not as useful, efficient and cost effective as other options available in the market.

To me, Bitcoin's price is overvalued. And when people see that, Bitcoin will get the price it actually deserves. And when it happens, it may be too late to reclaim the throne.

[Ambatman]

I have been a crypto enthusiast for many years. And to me it seems Bitcoin deviated from its intended purpose.

Many things have changed these years, and even the average Joe is now buying crypto.

But many people are not buying Bitcoin because of its usefulness, they are buying to speculate (hoping its price will increase).

And yes, there are better alternatives to Bitcoin, simply because Bitcoin refused to improve. It is in the pride of being the first, but that alone won't make it successful in the long run. It is just not as useful, efficient and cost effective as other options available in the market.

To me, Bitcoin's price is overvalued. And when people see that, Bitcoin will get the price it actually deserves. And when it happens, it may be too late to reclaim the throne.

Everybody has their views.
Just like I believe Bitcoin price is undervalued
Bitcoin didn't necessarily deviate from its intended purpose
It's more like it evolved and added as a store of value
And yes though Development has been slow and cautious it's price payed for security.
Scalabilty is been solved by Layer 2 network and in the future we can see something better than LN.


All cryptocurrencies are speculative in nature and it wouldn't be easy for any to take over Bitcoin as the pioneer of the cryptocurrency.


It's true that many are buying Bitcoin as a speculative asset but many isn't all
And as time goes on they would understand the flaw of the Fiat system.

I'm worried about fees going too high when Bitcoin gets mass adopted. (I don't need to explain, 1 block every 10 minutes)

If Bitcoin fees go to $100 or more per transactions, then it's not viable for low and middle class, for mundane tasks like transferring some to someone, DCA a monthly low amount,etc

Either scalabilty remained stagnant with no improvement which is very unlikely or $100 of then Would be a dollar of now.

[Breukelen]

Think the problem with L2 is you are adding a layer (no pun intended) of complexity to a transaction and keeping the general population out with a knowlege as a barrier of entry. We are seeing the same problem on L1 (see all the crypto scams and thefts).

[Cryptohygenic]

I verily understood what you mean. So indirectly lower class holders who're quick to sell at any moment accountable profits no matter how small it may be would be optional to keep holding their asset for a longer time other than planned just so they can increase the value of their holding logistically on transaction fees and how to make profits without lost.
And ignorant to follow according may be at lost otherwise the average and lower classes will be forced to hold longer to increase their incomes before placing a transaction or trades.
Really going to be inconvenient if the fees gets to keep increasing up to unaffordable value for the lower classes.

[m2017]

I'm worried about fees going too high when Bitcoin gets mass adopted. (I don't need to explain, 1 block every 10 minutes)

If Bitcoin fees go to $100 or more per transactions, then it's not viable for low and middle class, for mundane tasks like transferring some to someone, DCA a monthly low amount,etc

Layer 2 doesn't seem to be the solution. Layer 2 means risk.
The beauty of Bitcoin is how secure it is to just store your Bitcoins on the layer 1

And that's why (one of the reasons) bitcoin won't be used to buy coffee.

And you won't need to make transactions with bitcoin, because it will be used (more and more often in the future) as an investment tool. Have you seen investors transferring shares, for example, SNP500 back and forth every week?

We will probably see $100 (or so) commissions at bitcoin's price of $1M. Do you think anyone will be very upset about this? Unlikely, because everyone will go crazy with delight at the price at that moment.

[tbct_mt2]

I'm worried about fees going too high when Bitcoin gets mass adopted. (I don't need to explain, 1 block every 10 minutes)

If Bitcoin fees go to $100 or more per transactions, then it's not viable for low and middle class, for mundane tasks like transferring some to someone, DCA a monthly low amount,etc

Bitcoin transaction fee is not too cheap, it's expensive especially if you make a transaction with low value. However, it is cheap if your transaction value is not too small, and if it is big value, that's good choice. Because Bitcoin transactions are irreversible, not like bank transfers or many other methods.

Compares to other years in Bitcoin history, it's time with cheap on-chain transaction fee.
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html#alltime

Now you can move your bitcoin with fee rate at 3 sat/vbyte, with a confirmation in a next one block.
https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#BTC%20(default%20mempool),24h,weight

If you use non custodial wallets, with control of UTXOs, you can control your inputs, outputs, fee rates, and I am quite sure that you can avoid $100 transaction fee.

Layer 2 doesn't seem to be the solution. Layer 2 means risk.

Bitcoin other layer technologies.
Sidechain Observer - Bitcoin L2 Projects & current state of development

[CryptoBuds]

I have been a crypto enthusiast for many years. And to me it seems Bitcoin deviated from its intended purpose.

Many things have changed these years, and even the average Joe is now buying crypto.

But many people are not buying Bitcoin because of its usefulness, they are buying to speculate (hoping its price will increase).

And yes, there are better alternatives to Bitcoin, simply because Bitcoin refused to improve. It is in the pride of being the first, but that alone won't make it successful in the long run. It is just not as useful, efficient and cost effective as other options available in the market.

To me, Bitcoin's price is overvalued. And when people see that, Bitcoin will get the price it actually deserves. And when it happens, it may be too late to reclaim the throne.

Admittedly, most people today only use bitcoin as an investment, very few use it for payment purposes. But that doesn't mean it deviates from its original purpose, you can still use it as a payment method if you want regardless of what other people use it for. Just like gold was used as currency in the past but over time it has been used as jewelry, investment or store of value...is gold straying from its original purpose?
Bitcoin is still Bitcoin, the only difference is that people use it for their different purposes.

If you consider bitcoin as just a currency or payment method then you are right in saying that bitcoin is overvalued, but if you consider it as an asset, an investment. You will find that bitcoin is still quite cheap compared to what it gives us.

[FortuneFollower]

And that's why (one of the reasons) bitcoin won't be used to buy coffee.

And you won't need to make transactions with bitcoin, because it will be used (more and more often in the future) as an investment tool. Have you seen investors transferring shares, for example, SNP500 back and forth every week?

We will probably see $100 (or so) commissions at bitcoin's price of $1M. Do you think anyone will be very upset about this? Unlikely, because everyone will go crazy with delight at the price at that moment.

Because people would still see it as the thing they see today - a store of value and an investment mechanism.
 

[Helena Yu]

Of course Bitcoin fees would reach $100 per transaction, it's because fiat always inflated which make asset or product cost really high, while the reality it's not that really expensive. If today $1 can be used to buy a slice of pizza, $100 in the future only enough to buy two slice of pizzas, so $100 in the future is like nothing.

I think Bitcoin fees will not be really expensive because people are rarely to move their coins and choose to hold in centralized exchanges.

[Z-tight]

But many people are not buying Bitcoin because of its usefulness, they are buying to speculate (hoping its price will increase).

One very important concept with BTC is freedom, now do you want to dictate to people how they should use a 'free' currency. I have never had a problem with how people use BTC, it is their keys, so it is their coins, and not yours or mine. I believe that instead of us complaining about how other people use their coins, we should use ours in the way we think is right and support the network how we can.

[Shishir99]

I'm worried about fees going too high when Bitcoin gets mass adopted. (I don't need to explain, 1 block every 10 minutes)

I feel like people do not care about Bitcoin anymore. Most users, including myself, see it as an investment asset. I do not use Bitcoin daily to pay for things, nor can I even try. Most people are investing in Bitcoin to hold it for a short term or a long term. Investors are investing in Bitcoin ETFs instead of buying them on-chain. People are keeping their Bitcoin on centralized platforms knowing the risk.

If someone makes thousands of Dollars from an investment, they would happily spend a hundred dollars on transaction fees. But as an average user, I don't think I can afford a $10 transaction fee. I know some platforms accept lightning payment, but the number is too low.

[mindrust]

Bitcoin is a settlement layer which big corps will use. (Like banks and tech giants, or/and even countries) Common folks like us will use alts. (Litecoin, dogecoin etc)

Remember:

Btc = gold (money of gods and kings)
Ltc = silver (money of plebs)
The others = copper (wire material)

Meaning, if you can’t afford to pay them fees, use something else. Only the very elite can use btc and it seems you are not one.

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

Bitcoin is a settlement layer which big corps will use. (Like banks and tech giants, or/and even countries) Common folks like us will use alts. (Litecoin, dogecoin etc)

Remember:

Btc = gold (money of gods and kings)
Ltc = silver (money of plebs)
The others = copper (wire material)

Meaning, if you can’t afford to pay them fees, use something else. Only the very elite can use btc and it seems you are not one.

How many confirmations are equivalent* to 6 Bitcoin confirmations?

The comparisons among altcoins in the above website, says part of what you said. Bitcoin the best choice for security of transactions. Litecoin is next, then Dogecoin and Bitcoin Cash.

It's about Proof of Work cryptocurrencies.