Panama responds to Trump

[Vod]

And if you mess with Canada, we'll shut off your Niagra Falls. 

[Hispo]

... 

This is beyond parody, actually... I had heard Doland Trump had planned to somehow take over the Panama Canal, so it would be again under the control of the United States government, I thought it was rather a distasteful thing to say, specially since he is not the president of the country yet. But having the president of panama to say such things as a reply to what Trump said is ridiculous as well, it is even hard for me to consider it to be real.
Also, does not Trump know the basics about national integrity of other nations and they fact you cannot simply take over territories from other countries just like that... on a whim? Was he planning to buy the canal back for the United States?
I get Trump wants the country to have further control globally (which by the way, it kind of goes against his American first policies) on what happens in countries like Panama, which is key to se travel thanks to the canal, but openly say he intends to take over it in a way or other is rather dumb, pure populism, shallow populism.

[BADecker]

Look at it this way. If Trump uses tariffs, they won't be needing the Panama Canal for anything. A few big battleship guns should be able take care of the Panama Canal problem.

[caroasi]

And if you mess with Canada, we'll shut off your Niagra Falls.  

This seems to be a fake news story, but there is a saying "no good deed goes unpunished". It was quite self-deprecating for the USA to literally give them the Panama canal for free without any signals whatsoever they wouldn't be specifically punished for it later on. How could they do this with no written agreement regarding shipping fees?

[Zlantann]

Look at it this way. If Trump uses tariffs, they won't be needing the Panama Canal for anything. A few big battleship guns should be able take care of the Panama Canal problem.

Trump should respect the territorial integrity of Panama. There is no need sending Battleships to forcefully take over the canal. US can crumble the economy of Panama if they want. Stopping of some of US aid to the country will force them to cooperate with Trump's government.

And if you mess with Canada, we'll shut off your Niagra Falls.  

This seems to be a fake news story, but there is a saying "no good deed goes unpunished". It was quite self-deprecating for the USA to literally give them the Panama canal for free without any signals whatsoever they wouldn't be specifically punished for it later on. How could they do this with no written agreement regarding shipping fees?

It's indeed a fake news because I did brief search and couldn't find any news that relates to the increase of transit rate by Panama. I am sure Panama are already threatened by Donald Trump's comments, increasing the tariffs will attract devastating consequence. Trump might decide to use high tariffs to punish them.

[paxmao]

The answer from Panama looks more like a joke, but what I find most interesting is Trump launching all those messages of how the US should close borders, how US should work just for itself and just slap tariffs on others to prevent external competition, etc... and then... he goes back to Ye Old Munro doctrine and threatens Panama with what is nothing short of a new invasion of the country by the US,

And make no mistake, Trump has done exactly that - threaten a foreing country with an illegal war and illegal seizure of their territory and assets.

In case anyone has forgotten, Panama belonged to Colombia and it was the US that supported a revolution so that then they could dispose of the land for the Canal.

After Gran Colombia dissolved in 1831, Panama and Nueva Granada eventually became the Republic of Colombia. With the backing of the United States, Panama seceded from Colombia in 1903

The moral corruption of the foreign politics of the US knows no limit in Latin America.

[Ucy]

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

[coolcoinz]

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

Stop him from doing what? Starting another war?

This looks like the president of Panama is trying to compare dick sizes with Trump, or prove that he can bluff better. IMO no apology is coming his way, but we'll see how it goes. Trump has a large EGO, he's not going to budge, but also there's nothing that Panama can win in this struggle. Even if it came to an armed conflict they'd stand no chance. The outcome will be the same in case of trade wars.

[Hispo]

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

Stop him from doing what? Starting another war?

This looks like the president of Panama is trying to compare dick sizes with Trump, or prove that he can bluff better. IMO no apology is coming his way, but we'll see how it goes. Trump has a large EGO, he's not going to budge, but also there's nothing that Panama can win in this struggle. Even if it came to an armed conflict they'd stand no chance. The outcome will be the same in case of trade wars.

Well, I don't have a doubt Panama imports more goods than they export towards the United States, so definitely a trade war would be a loss in the eyes of the government of Panama. But still, having power over the channel is a plus in favor of the government of Panama, they could start to ask for higher fees from ships with American flags in order to punish the American economy, it would not hurt much, because the economy of the USA is huge when compared to Pamama's, but still it would be a cost added to the goods of the people of USA which needs to go through Panama to reach one of the coasts of the country.
He has not enter the white house yet and he is already making enemies/difficult situations for the USA. Shameful.

[BADecker]

Look at it this way. If Trump uses tariffs, they won't be needing the Panama Canal for anything. A few big battleship guns should be able take care of the Panama Canal problem.

Trump should respect the territorial integrity of Panama. There is no need sending Battleships to forcefully take over the canal. US can crumble the economy of Panama if they want. Stopping of some of US aid to the country will force them to cooperate with Trump's government.

And if you mess with Canada, we'll shut off your Niagra Falls.  

This seems to be a fake news story, but there is a saying "no good deed goes unpunished". It was quite self-deprecating for the USA to literally give them the Panama canal for free without any signals whatsoever they wouldn't be specifically punished for it later on. How could they do this with no written agreement regarding shipping fees?

It's indeed a fake news because I did brief search and couldn't find any news that relates to the increase of transit rate by Panama. I am sure Panama are already threatened by Donald Trump's comments, increasing the tariffs will attract devastating consequence. Trump might decide to use high tariffs to punish them.

Trump is all about MAGA. This includes doing things justly and rightly. People have been doing things wrong for so long that doing them right, again, will hurt a little.

I hope that Canada waits for Vod to get out of his barrel before they shut Niagara Fall off.


Btw, the Monroe Doctrine makes it legal for Trump to do Panama. The Doctrine might be unconscionable in part, but it is legal.

[paxmao]

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

Stop him from doing what? Starting another war?

This looks like the president of Panama is trying to compare dick sizes with Trump, or prove that he can bluff better. IMO no apology is coming his way, but we'll see how it goes. Trump has a large EGO, he's not going to budge, but also there's nothing that Panama can win in this struggle. Even if it came to an armed conflict they'd stand no chance. The outcome will be the same in case of trade wars.

Well, I don't have a doubt Panama imports more goods than they export towards the United States, so definitely a trade war would be a loss in the eyes of the government of Panama. But still, having power over the channel is a plus in favor of the government of Panama, they could start to ask for higher fees from ships with American flags in order to punish the American economy, it would not hurt much, because the economy of the USA is huge when compared to Pamama's, but still it would be a cost added to the goods of the people of USA which needs to go through Panama to reach one of the coasts of the country.
He has not enter the white house yet and he is already making enemies/difficult situations for the USA. Shameful.

What are you talking about? This is not about the import and exports and this would be no trade war. Trump has said that he is not happy paying the canal toll and has threaten an illegal anexation of a foreign country just because it is convenient for him.

This is not the first time, they also invaded when the country was under Noriega. This is simply the case of the President of a nuclear superpower bulliying and threatening other countries that are defenceless in the face of the masive military power of the US.

In my view the president of Panama should have simply ignored Trumps words, but the world should not ignore the type of threat that Trump has sent.

[BADecker]

~

Well, I don't have a doubt Panama imports more goods than they export towards the United States, so definitely a trade war would be a loss in the eyes of the government of Panama. But still, having power over the channel is a plus in favor of the government of Panama, they could start to ask for higher fees from ships with American flags in order to punish the American economy, it would not hurt much, because the economy of the USA is huge when compared to Pamama's, but still it would be a cost added to the goods of the people of USA which needs to go through Panama to reach one of the coasts of the country.
He has not enter the white house yet and he is already making enemies/difficult situations for the USA. Shameful.

What are you talking about? This is not about the import and exports and this would be no trade war. Trump has said that he is not happy paying the canal toll and has threaten an illegal anexation of a foreign country just because it is convenient for him.

This is not the first time, they also invaded when the country was under Noriega. This is simply the case of the President of a nuclear superpower bulliying and threatening other countries that are defenceless in the face of the masive military power of the US.

In my view the president of Panama should have simply ignored Trumps words, but the world should not ignore the type of threat that Trump has sent.

Changes to agreements made by the US government can never be illegal. They might be unconscionable. But not illegal. Why not? Because of the Contract Clause in the Constitution.

The Contract Clause lets government make deals with other nations. If the US can contract 'in', they can also contract 'out', or change the terms of the contract if they wish. Sue them if you want. You should gave looked at the Constitution Contract Clause before you made any deals with them.

I'm sure there is some contract with Panama that the US Government can switch around this way or that, to do anything with Panama they want. Might doesn't necessarily make right, but might makes what happens.

[Vod]

Yes, it was obviously a joke, but thank you to Hispo and others for the thought provoking conversation.

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

But no country in the world anymore is "one".  Trump is a bully, and when confronted he will back down.   I know Canada will not stand by if a US dictator decides to invade a sovereign democracy.    Our army is not vast, but we will not be the only "one" standing against him.  

If I could trade my old life for an invading marine, I'd be proud to do so.    

[BADecker]

Yes, it was obviously a joke, but thank you to Hispo and others for the thought provoking conversation.

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

But no country in the world anymore is "one".  Trump is a bully, and when confronted he will back down.   I know Canada will not stand by if a US dictator decides to invade a sovereign democracy.    Our army is not vast, but we will not be the only "one" standing against him.  

If I could trade my old life for an invading marine, I'd be proud to do so.    

You seem to forget Trump's fight for the presidency, and the fact that way more people love him... as shown by their votes. He will do what is right.

Working with Canada makes some things easier for the United States. But we don't really need Canada.

And don't worry. You have a lot of time to go over Niagara Falls in your barrel before Canada turns it off.

[giorgione]

Yes, it was obviously a joke, but thank you to Hispo and others for the thought provoking conversation.

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

But no country in the world anymore is "one".  Trump is a bully, and when confronted he will back down.   I know Canada will not stand by if a US dictator decides to invade a sovereign democracy.    Our army is not vast, but we will not be the only "one" standing against him.  

If I could trade my old life for an invading marine, I'd be proud to do so.    

but stop saying that trump is a dictator, he is instead doing good for us Europeans who don't want war at home and instead is trying to put an end to that useless war, something that his opponents and those who say otherwise would not have done he knows he's saying something stupid

[BADecker]

Yes, it was obviously a joke, but thank you to Hispo and others for the thought provoking conversation.

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

But no country in the world anymore is "one".  Trump is a bully, and when confronted he will back down.   I know Canada will not stand by if a US dictator decides to invade a sovereign democracy.    Our army is not vast, but we will not be the only "one" standing against him.  

If I could trade my old life for an invading marine, I'd be proud to do so.    

but stop saying that trump is a dictator, he is instead doing good for us Europeans who don't want war at home and instead is trying to put an end to that useless war, something that his opponents and those who say otherwise would not have done he knows he's saying something stupid

Government leaders are dictators over government, not over men and women. This is shown in the Constitution where 'people' are differentiated from 'persons'. The writers of the Constitution understood that persons are the agreements that people make, and not the people themselves.

The way that government takes control of non-governmental people is by tricking the people into thinking that they are persons, and then saying it. If, by your own mouth, you say that you are a person, who can government believe but you? You have thrown yourself into their jurisdiction.

By not accepting the position of person, and by stating it the right way, you remain a 'people' (man/woman). Office of the Person - https://redress4dummies.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/office-of-person1.pdf.

[paxmao]

Yes, it was obviously a joke, but thank you to Hispo and others for the thought provoking conversation.

Just be careful not to look for trouble. No one in the world will be so powerful to stop him when he returns to the White house

But no country in the world anymore is "one".  Trump is a bully, and when confronted he will back down.   I know Canada will not stand by if a US dictator decides to invade a sovereign democracy.    Our army is not vast, but we will not be the only "one" standing against him.  

If I could trade my old life for an invading marine, I'd be proud to do so.    

I do no think you will get to that point. At this point the US regardless of the governing party is not showing anything better than they did during the 80s and the 90s as far as the rest of the world is concerned. A clear stance towards moving in whatever direction suits regardless of the international legal systems.

Who knows, maybe the next thing is saying that Canada, Mexico and Panama hold weapons of mass destruction, like they said in Irak.

[Vod]

Maybe the next thing is saying that Canada, Mexico and Panama hold weapons of mass destruction, like they said in Irak.

After a big dinner of Pasta, my lactose intolerance is a weapon of mass destruction.   I'm holding it in!

[BADecker]

Maybe the US should do what they do best, cancel the treaty with Panama using the Constitution Contract Clause. Then take the Canal back.


Trump vows to reclaim Panama Canal, saying it belongs to America


https://www.naturalnews.com/2024-12-28-trump-reclaim-panama-canal-america.html
    Trump threatens to reclaim control of the Panama Canal, citing "outrageous" fees and a "foolish" relinquishment.

    The canal, built by the U.S. in the early 1900s, was transferred to Panama in 1999 under a treaty.

    Trump criticizes rising canal fees and warns of potential foreign influence, hinting at China.

    Panama’s president rejects Trump’s proposal, defending the canal’s sovereignty and fee structure.

    The dispute reflects Trump’s "America First" agenda and broader U.S.-Panama tensions.

In a bold declaration that has sparked international debate, President-elect Donald Trump has threatened to reclaim control of the Panama Canal, arguing that the United States should not tolerate what he calls “outrageous” fees and a “foolish” relinquishment of a vital national asset.

Trump’s remarks, delivered during a rally in Arizona, reflect a broader vision of restoring American dominance on the global stage, but they have also raised questions about the legal and moral implications of such a move.

The Panama Canal holds a unique place in American history. Constructed in the early 1900s, the canal was a monumental engineering feat that revolutionized global trade by connecting the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. It was built by the United States, paid for by American taxpayers, and was once considered a cornerstone of U.S. economic and military power. For decades, the canal served as a symbol of American ingenuity and influence, facilitating the movement of goods and military assets between the two coasts.

However, in 1999, under a treaty signed by President Jimmy Carter, the United States relinquished control of the canal to Panama. The decision was framed as a gesture of goodwill and a step toward Panamanian sovereignty. But for Trump, this transfer represents a historic mistake — one that he now seeks to rectify.

Rising fees and sovereignty concerns
...

[paxmao]

Maybe the US should do what they do best, cancel the treaty with Panama using the Constitution Contract Clause. Then take the Canal back.


Trump vows to reclaim Panama Canal, saying it belongs to America

I think that the US should also give back Alaska to Ruzzia. I mean, if international agreements and sovereignty do not play a role in any of this we can take it back just a bit more:

- Return Manhattan and nearly all the US land to the few remaining natives that the US did not manage to genocide.
- Return Alaska to Ruzzia.
- Return half of Texas and New Mexico to Mexico.
- Return the Lousiana, Mississipi, Missouri and other bits to their legitimate owner: France.
- Return California and large chunks of New Mexico and Texas to Spain.

All based on the same principle. Unless what Trump is threatining is a military invasion outside the international law, which in turn would justify other acts agains the US falling outside international law. So.... is it going to be law or force?