Loan Defaulted [bluebit25]

[shasan]

What happened:: Loan Defaulted

Scammers Profile Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=90531

Reference Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5030169.msg64400890#msg64400890
Amount Scammed:  110$
Payment Method: USDT
Additional Notes: I have waited several months but have had no repayment and finally stopped responding.
Flag: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=3371

[shasan]

Reserve

[DireWolfM14]

Just thought the history of his loan and payments were kind of interesting.

He borrowed $100 promising to pay back $120.
He paid $100 in interest, yet still owes more than he borrowed.

Hi shasan

Loan Amount: 100 USDT
Loan Purpose: Personal
Loan Repay Amount: 120 USDT
Loan Repay Date: 2 months extension - December 06, 2023
Type of Collateral: None
USDT Address: TBEHfKzrk8GkyjPjoBCJg83djbRwPV7Gwt

I have just paid the $10 interest on the loan I requested earlier, the remaining amount will be paid in full before the deadline as committed. Transaction id https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/a1e58a9a30d1a3f7b5b3a2c7485ae1c9860e45afe1a28a55b1bb663061c656ff please check and confirm for me, thank you.

Good day shasan,

I sent you $10 ( transaction id: https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/34c918550f49785a03e5964497299cf60591913f3fefacef00b27e3c41ebdab0 ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before Jan 5 2024, please check and confirm.

Hi Shasan, I sent you $10 ( transaction id: https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/e7b91f0024a1d95489023cd0ac3b0ae415f6f99dafe30792274864581c75df6e ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before Feb 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

Hi Shasan, I sent you $10 ( transaction id: https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/7a7c300d792e0041f94b8ef1ca246435aa523d4d7733a32df29b97aa895e6e5a ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before March 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

Hi Shasan,
I sent you $10 ( https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/43c67a7d0fbb4631796dd4abd02e24cb5f84932565655cac9bccfae05be1a042 ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before April 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

Hi Shasan,
I sent you $10  ( maybe it's $11.20 because there's no transfer fee, but let's just say it's $10 )



to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before May 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

Hi Shasan,
I sent you $10 ( https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/182b8ef1e7b9848cecc87d3eff146d67d65ca7c4440a7b92165eb225a08d1b11 ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before June 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

I sent you $10 ( https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/b4ac3e5cd70acfd5563a40b6223fa57d3e15155a278a0982fe9cbbdd7f45b923 ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before July 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

I sent you $10 ( https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/d057dcbfd2edd98a2ebd97448751092d732e1bafdedf69268bd8e8dc9d30a7c5 ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before Aug 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

I sent you $10 ( https://tronscan.org/#/transaction/c13a28893a16ca7332d82090d26e828a2d2cb27a798f836c3ac64976cf59217b ) to continue extending the loan due for another month, the refund will be made in full before Sep 5 2024.

Please check and confirm.

Doesn't that seem kind of predatory?  I mean, I get it, free market, interest adds up, extensions taken...  But for some reason I thought you were Muslim.  This can't be halal.

[shasan]

This loan was a insurances for the loan defaulter. It was okay while s/he was in campaign and while s/he was hopeful to be able to join on a new signature campaign. But while the user thought not possible to rejoin on any campaign left the forum. Not only this user but there are a lot of user whose intention like that. The user would leave the forum if it was happened earlier. 

[Helena Yu]

I check his Bitcoin address, he received like $40 per week, 3 weeks already enough to pay the loan in full.

Doesn't that seem kind of predatory?  I mean, I get it, free market, interest adds up, extensions taken...  But for some reason I thought you were Muslim.  This can't be halal.

If we're talking about halal and haram, lend someone with additional interest is already haram in the first place, no matter small or big the interest. It's become halal if the loan is interest free and the borrower give additional interest voluntary, not forced.

[Charles-Tim]

Flag supported. Negative trust given.

If we're talking about halal and haram, lend someone with additional interest is already haram in the first place, no matter small or big the interest. It's become halal if the loan is interest free and the borrower give additional interest voluntary, not forced.

I have heard of Sukuk bond before which is commonly done by Muslims. I think it is about something related to debt in a way that some people or organizations profit from it. Which means that is not also halal? Why are Muslims doing it publicly?

Also if borrowing with interest is haram, no need for Muslims to borrow such money. So if I buy something at $50 to resell it as a trader for $55. That should also become haram because I should not include interest.

[LoyceV]

He borrowed $100 promising to pay back $120.
He paid $100 in interest, yet still owes more than he borrowed.
~
Doesn't that seem kind of predatory?  I mean, I get it, free market, interest adds up, extensions taken...

Where I live, those interest rates wouldn't be allowed because the "free market" indeed leads to predatory interest rates. But, when paying late, collection fees add up quickly and can easily make the total amount several times higher than the original loan. I believe most people would be better off without taking high interest short-term loans, and this loan service has destroyed many accounts by now.

[DireWolfM14]

I check his Bitcoin address, he received like $40 per week, 3 weeks already enough to pay the loan in full.

His income and his ability to pay are two different things.  Regardless, I'm not defending the borrower.  I'm questioning Shasan's policies.

Also if borrowing with interest is haram, no need for Muslims to borrow such money.

Is the borrower Muslim?  I still don't know if Shasan is, I was only making an assumption.  He has neither confirmed nor denied it.

Borrowing and lending in and of it's self isn't haram.  Riba (usury,) is haram.  As long as the lender and borrower are in agreement to very simple terms that don't put the borrower in more debt as time goes on, it doesn't count as riba.  These are relatively simple, non-compounding loans that don't need a degree in law or finance to understand, making them halal.

For example (using round numbers):
I want to borrow $80k to buy a house that costs $100k
The halal bank puts up $80k, but they want 150% of their investment ($120k) paid in 10 years.  Meaning the bank is reselling me their 80% stake in the house for $120k.
After 5 years of making payments ($60k,) I own 60% stake in the house.

IRL, there are other contractual agreements dealing with missed payments, obviously, but that's the simplified version.

So if I buy something at $50 to resell it as a trader for $55. That should also become haram because I should not include interest.

Don't be ridiculous.  There's nothing haram about wholesale/retail trade.  Buying in bulk and selling one piece at a time is the staple of any economy.

Where I live, those interest rates wouldn't be allowed because the "free market" indeed leads to predatory interest rates. But, when paying late, collection fees add up quickly and can easily make the total amount several times higher than the original loan.

Most western countries have some restrictions on interest rates that can be charged, it's the same in my country.  But, late fees can also be predatory.

I believe most people would be better off without taking high interest short-term loans, and this loan service has destroyed many accounts by now.

I agree.  This account in particular is almost 12 years old.  It's sad to see it get painted red over $110, especially after the user paid back the original loan amount.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Just thought the history of his loan and payments were kind of interesting.

He borrowed $100 promising to pay back $120.
He paid $100 in interest, yet still owes more than he borrowed.

...

Doesn't that seem kind of predatory?  I mean, I get it, free market, interest adds up, extensions taken...  But for some reason I thought you were Muslim.  This can't be halal.

Very interesting, I had never stopped to do the numbers like that, and once you've laid it out it doesn't seem so strange the default. Although being honest, by paying back $100 on the $100 borrowed, even if sashan had been more lenients, the borrower would still be short of paying interest. But probably, seeing that when paying penalties for extensions, the principal did not go down is at least one of the reasons for the default.

Where I live, those interest rates wouldn't be allowed because the "free market" indeed leads to predatory interest rates.

Yes and no. In most of the developed world the interest charged here is prohibited, I myself have commented on it more than once. People don't mind paying $1 interest on a $20 loan for two weeks because they think it's only $1, but if you think about it in terms of APR it's 130%. I think the inability to think in percentage terms is one of the causes of people's impoverishment.

But where do you see the free market when the activity that sashan is doing is basically forbidden, even if it escapes the eyes of the authorities by taking place in this corner of the internet.

I believe most people would be better off without taking high interest short-term loans, and this loan service has destroyed many accounts by now.

On this we agree and we have commented several times in threads of this style, but I am far from thinking that the borrowers are poor victims of the circumstances they have been forced to borrow and that the evil sashan has destroyed them. I think it is basically the opposite: the defaulters in most cases are gamblers, cheaters, dishonest people who in many cases have planned to default beforehand taking advantage of him.

[i luv chatgpt]

I’m really sorry to hear about what happened with your loan. That’s super frustrating, especially after waiting so long.

You know, banks are strict with loans for a reason—they want to avoid criminals and make sure genuine borrowers can actually pay them back.  It’s a good idea to do your own screening before lending money, just like the banks do. Don't forget there are always criminal out there who will try to take advantage of your kindness, so being cautious is key.

[dkbit98]

Flag supported, and sorry once again shasan.
This was such a stupid way to ruin Senior account, and I see he/she also registered on another forum.
I think that account from 2013 is worth much more than $100, and not only in monetary terms, but I would also look for his other alt account connections.

[Bitcoin_Arena]

This was such a stupid way to ruin Senior account, and I see he/she also registered on another forum.

He should probably follow it up in the forum too and have it tagged if possible because it's the same person. He is likely to scam again anywhere else if he gets an opportunity.

[Helena Yu]

I have heard of Sukuk bond before which is commonly done by Muslims. I think it is about something related to debt in a way that some people or organizations profit from it. Which means that is not also halal? Why are Muslims doing it publicly?

Because in sukuk, they make money from tangible assets, not by money with money (interest).

Let's say the sukuk issuers have heavy equipment, the investors want to be a part of it, so they invest their money to the issuers to get a share. Whatever the results, the investors will accept to get reward/loss based on the agreement.

Also if borrowing with interest is haram, no need for Muslims to borrow such money. So if I buy something at $50 to resell it as a trader for $55. That should also become haram because I should not include interest.

Technically yes, even some Muslims think Bitcoin is haram because it has no physical appearance.

It's complicated, but I just want to share based on my observation.

[Charles-Tim]

I believe most people would be better off without taking high interest short-term loans, and this loan service has destroyed many accounts by now.

Alts are also many and some with evil intentions which is money, regardless of how they get it. What I noticed is that those that contribute good see their account valuable and paid back. I saw an account that owe money when Bestchange stopped signature campaign on this forum. It was difficult at the time and mixers were no more. This user is still active now because his account is valuable to himself. Some people would have left on this forum without anyone noticing just as usual as it was in the past but this loan let us know those that defaulted loan and left without paying. I guess some people have the evil intention now to find means to borrow loan but having it in mind before they borrowed it that they will not post anymore.

Because in sukuk, they make money from tangible assets, not by money with money (interest).

Which means borrowers will pay no interest?

[Little Mouse]

Because in sukuk, they make money from tangible assets, not by money with money (interest).

Which means borrowers will pay no interest?

I don't know how it works exactly in other parts of the world but here in my local, it is sort of eye wash IMO.

[Agbe]

This loan was a insurances for the loan defaulter. It was okay while s/he was in campaign and while s/he was hopeful to be able to join on a new signature campaign. But while the user thought not possible to rejoin on any campaign left the forum. Not only this user but there are a lot of user whose intention like that. The user would leave the forum if it was happened earlier.  

This your service you are offering is dangerous and you are feeling the negative impact of the service. You also allow loan takers to extend their loan which is also dangerous in loaning business. In physical I have seen lenders and borrowers having quarrel in many times. Lenders seize borrowers properties (houses, cars, and other valuables). I don't know if you can plan another ways out too. Campaign is not really dependable because it can be paused, end, or the participant can be removed. So I advise you to re-strategize service rendering method. It is very bad when someone take your business money and run away.

[shasan]

This your service you are offering is dangerous and you are feeling the negative impact of the service. You also allow loan takers to extend their loan which is also dangerous in loaning business. In physical I have seen lenders and borrowers having quarrel in many times. Lenders seize borrowers properties (houses, cars, and other valuables). I don't know if you can plan another ways out too. Campaign is not really dependable because it can be paused, end, or the participant can be removed. So I advise you to re-strategize service rendering method. It is very bad when someone take your business money and run away.

You are right that the service has a bad impact on the extension. I really hate all the extensions. Though one or two extensions might be okay more than that without repaying any initial is very bad. And that is why I have already changed my terms regarding the extension to December 2024. Actually I do not get the point of taking a long time extension except for the intention of defaulting the loan.

[AHOYBRAUSE]

You are right that the service has a bad impact on the extension. I really hate all the extensions. Though one or two extensions might be okay more than that without repaying any initial is very bad. And that is why I have already changed my terms regarding the extension to December 2024. Actually I do not get the point of taking a long time extension except for the intention of defaulting the loan.

I don't think extending the loan is a sign of the intention to defaulting it. Every time people extend they have to send the extension fee. If anything this shows that they are willing to pay. I have seen some guys extending loans with you for over one year. So basically if they extend 12 times you already got your initial loan back and still are the full amount owed and hopefully repaid. If this would be a scam this would be the stupidest scam of all time since over a year they already payed back more in fees than they actually got for the loan.

Some people live month to month so while they maybe were hopeful to pay it back asap there might be problems so they pay a part and expend it. Sure for your budget calculations it' s a bit inconvenient but still you are getting a 10%/month profit from it, which is not bad.

Anyway, it's sad to see there was yet another default!

[shasan]

I don't think extending the loan is a sign of the intention to defaulting it. Every time people extend they have to send the extension fee. If anything this shows that they are willing to pay. I have seen some guys extending loans with you for over one year. So basically if they extend 12 times you already got your initial loan back and still are the full amount owed and hopefully repaid. If this would be a scam this would be the stupidest scam of all time since over a year they already payed back more in fees than they actually got for the loan.

Some people live month to month so while they maybe were hopeful to pay it back asap there might be problems so they pay a part and expend it. Sure for your budget calculations it' s a bit inconvenient but still you are getting a 10%/month profit from it, which is not bad.

Anyway, it's sad to see there was yet another default!

I do not want to make an argument as many people might be on the side and few will be offside. But in my experience, I have seen maximum loan defaulters took extensions and leave the forum when the user has been removed from the campaign. You are correct in some point but their intention is out of basic theory.

[Zwei]

Borrowing and lending in and of it's self isn't haram.  Riba (usury,) is haram.  As long as the lender and borrower are in agreement to very simple terms that don't put the borrower in more debt as time goes on, it doesn't count as riba.  These are relatively simple, non-compounding loans that don't need a degree in law or finance to understand, making them halal.

For example (using round numbers):
I want to borrow $80k to buy a house that costs $100k
The halal bank puts up $80k, but they want 150% of their investment ($120k) paid in 10 years.  Meaning the bank is reselling me their 80% stake in the house for $120k.
After 5 years of making payments ($60k,) I own 60% stake in the house.

as someone from a muslim background, i would like to explain a bit more about riba.
if you are buying and selling money with guaranteed profit and no risk, that's considered riba, and it's haram. so whether the terms of the loan put the borrower in more debt as time goes on or not, or whether the interest rate is high or low, it doesn't matter, it still falls under riba.

the house example you gave is correct. as the halal way to take a loan is for the lender to buy the thing that you want the money for and then resell it to you for a profit.
the profit % depends on how long you want to take to fully pay it off. additionally, the lender(seller) can't add any extra fees later on. the price you pay is fixed at the time of sale.

also, some halal banks, when you can't pay the remaining amount, use zakat money to cover it. the bank doesn't just kick you out of the house and put it up for auction.

I don't think extending the loan is a sign of the intention to defaulting it. Every time people extend they have to send the extension fee. If anything this shows that they are willing to pay. I have seen some guys extending loans with you for over one year. So basically if they extend 12 times you already got your initial loan back and still are the full amount owed and hopefully repaid. If this would be a scam this would be the stupidest scam of all time since over a year they already payed back more in fees than they actually got for the loan.

Some people live month to month so while they maybe were hopeful to pay it back asap there might be problems so they pay a part and expend it. Sure for your budget calculations it' s a bit inconvenient but still you are getting a 10%/month profit from it, which is not bad.

i agree with the last part. in theory, the high interest he charges and the profit he gets from those who do pay their loans back should cover the losses from the ones who default.

but i also get what @shasan is saying. by extending the loan, it's a sign that the person couldn't afford to pay it back on time, so it's more likely they will default, not because they don't want to pay or are trying to scam, but simply because they can't afford it.
with the interest adding up day after day, and if the campaign ends or they get removed and can't join a new one, they are left with no choice but to default, unfortunately.