No longer pursuing Epochtalk

[theymos]

A very long time ago now, we hired a company to start developing Epochtalk, which was intended to completely replace the software which currently runs the forum. It was originally supposed to be done in one year; that target was totally missed, but it did eventually get to a usable state which was ~90% feature-complete. However, starting around 2020, development really seemed to stall. I could see that good progress was continually being made, so I didn't want to cancel it, but it never really seemed to get any closer to being ready for bitcointalk.org to actually use it, since it was still missing features, it wasn't stable/bug-free enough, and there was no solid plan to smoothly make the transition.

Recently, a live-data demo of Epochtalk was released. I had been pushing for something like this to be released ASAP in order to have a solid milestone to aim for, and also so that Epochtalk could be tested in a real-world context. The demo works, and in some ways it is actually useful, but I found it underwhelming, and subsequently the community found a really inexcusable number of bugs in it. After seeing the low quality of the demo, in combination with the many years of disappointing progress overall, my opinion on the Epochtalk project shifted from "this is going too slowly, but it might still bear good fruit eventually" to "this is probably going nowhere". Therefore, I've decided that the forum will no longer pursue Epochtalk. It's frustrating to pull the plug on this after investing a lot of time and money into it, but I've come to believe that continuing would be "throwing good money after bad" at this point.

For forum users, nothing has changed. The developers of Epochtalk were not working on anything actually used by forum users: they were working on a hope that we might someday move away from PHP/SMF. Most of the original goals for Epochtalk have in fact already been completed in the current software through work by myself, PowerGlove, and others in the 10+ years since the idea of new forum software was first contemplated. Since 2011, we've added trust, merit, 2FA, "evil fees", watchlists, drafts, a sane reports system, and many other improvements on stock SMF. Going forward, we will continue to make improvements to the current software. One of the most requested features is improving the forum's usability on mobile devices, and that is already being worked on.
Epochtalk has always been open source under the MIT license, so you can still go run it right now if you want; the code is in the repos in this Github organization. The developers have indicated to me that they intend to independently continue its development, without our support. The Epochtalk proxy of bitcointalk.org will also stay up for at least a while.

[Mia Chloe]

Frankly speaking I think many other members of this forum have already given up on the new forum software. Basically it was taking too long just like you mentioned and if I can remember correctly if you check older threads on the meta board you will find out that members here were more inclined on progress about the new from software back then than lately.

I checked the demo and is not really bad though but frankly speaking I really don't see any much need for a change in the forum software. For some reason I seem to still  prefer this forum software to the new one based on what I found on the demo. Probably because I'm more used to this though.

[uchegod-21]

Since is was a newbie, is this epochtalk the anticipated new forum software?
Thanks theymos for being a motivation to me that sometimes you need to give up in life. Not all ideas will be a reality.

I will have to mention The Sceptical
Chemist, I think no one anticipated or talked about the new forum software than him.
Thanks to theymos, PowerGlove and others who kept patching the current software we are using to the extent we don't need the new again.
Trust the new forum child board is locked or removed now.

[Ambatman]

"If it's working well don't change it "
Never heard about the epochtalk and I guess I will never see it.
The risk of bugs ain't worth the rewards especially on how well this current system is working.

Simplicity also has its Beauty.

[_act_]

I have heard about Epochtalk but I do not like how the demo is. It is not worth going to. It is not good at all is what that I think. I have been to many forums and they are very good and user friendly but this is the opposite.

I prefer this forum. I even see this forum to be very unique.

[Lafu]

Most of the original goals for Epochtalk have in fact already been completed in the current software through work by myself, PowerGlove, and others in the 10+ years since the idea of new forum software was first contemplated. Since 2011, we've added trust, merit, 2FA, "evil fees", watchlists, drafts, a sane reports system, and many other improvements on stock SMF. Going forward, we will continue to make improvements to the current software. One of the most requested features is improving the forum's usability on mobile devices, and that is already being worked on.

Sad to hear and read that goals and expectations from the hired company was not filled for the money that you and the Forum has invested in that.
On the other Hand it maybe was for a good thing as such Users you mentioned " PowerGlove " have done more great things in a year for current Forum Software as others for the new one.
At this stage i drop a very big and awesome thanks and respect to PowerGlove for making a lot of improvments to the Forum that you only have to modify for it.
Really to mention is the 2FA feature and this will be also my highlight for the Bitcointalk Awards 2024.

Even the Software or the looking is old school we should keep what Satoshi started, the Forum is a milestone and history at the same time.
We should preserve this.

[mikeywith]

I understand that many people may attempt to use this against you. There was significant skepticism surrounding Epochtalk, and much drama followed, particularly concerning the investment amount. Was it a bad investment? Maybe. However, I think many people, including myself, believe that you did it for a good cause, even if things didn't unfold exactly as planned. I'm glad to hear you've moved past this challenge. Wishing you all the best, Theymos.

[JeromeTash]

This is very sad to know. When I saw a post about the live demo in the new forum software board, I thought that maybe we were finally getting there after the long wait. I was honestly excited for some possible new features. It must really have hurt to let go given the funds and time invested in the development of the software.

Is there any chance that we shall use the newer versions of SMF in the future, or we shall just stick to this current one?

[PX-Z]

Oh, so there was a live-data demo of the Epochtalk, never heard ans never tried but after just visiting the new forum software, i can say its lacking it's mobile friendliness, too slow when accessing the page and accessing user page. It's sad and frustrating, many members longing for that, that's the words that comes out with the current situation. Well, anyway, this forum will still run, and i hope new features will be added soon too 

[KingsDen]

Oh, so there was a live-data demo of the Epochtalk, never heard ans never tried but after just visiting the new forum software, i can say its lacking it's mobile friendliness, too slow when accessing the page and accessing user page. It's sad and frustrating, many members longing for that, that's the words that comes out with the current situation. Well, anyway, this forum will still run, and i hope new features will be added soon too 

Mate, I bet you that there will be no better version of Bitcointalk than the one we have. It could be fine, better and user-friendly in our thoughts but in reality, what we have now stands out. You don't know the extent to which 90% of the forum users have fallen in love with this present software. We have gotten used to this we have, the background and the unbeaten colour combination. No matter what efforts is put in place, the best would still be second to this.

In building a new software, you will be careful to balance the desire of the forum users to have a non social media like graphics, while trying to give a touch of what is contemporary.

theymos made a good decision. Things would have gone bad unless he would be ready to run bug bounty for the next 12 months. I visited the read only version of the epochtalk and it gave me the vibe of Altcoinstalks. There's no way to create two originals. I therefore urge that the idea of the new forum software should be buried with this announcement. Even if it doesn't sit well with us. I can see, we are still in the first page, unlike other updates of theymos.

[PX-Z]

I visited the read only version of the epochtalk and it gave me the vibe of Altcoinstalks.

Oh maybe because of the orangey color scheme of the new forum software? Hmmm i feel like it can still be changed in forum settings though so not a big deal for its impact on the actual look. My only concern is the lack of feeling of being mobile friendly look like the card, shadows, etc, although i can say that the new forum software is much more simple and clean.

[nutildah]

That's fine with me and welcome news as I've long been under the impression that the forum's old school vibes is what gives it its charm. Its like stepping into the past; especially when reading old threads by satoshi, Gavin, Hal and other Bitcoin luminaries.

I also can't help but think that when visitors come to the forum to read the posts of said luminaries, they'd want to read them in more-or-less the same format they were written. This adds to the experience of it all -- to read the posts the way that others saw them back then.

[AVE5]

~Snip
I checked the demo and is not really bad though but frankly speaking I really don't see any much need for a change in the forum software. For some reason I seem to still  prefer this forum software to the new one based on what I found on the demo. Probably because I'm more used to this though.

Oh thanks for coming this far to make me understand this Epochtalk ongoing project was a replacement software of the existed one in forum. Maybe was of my dump head all thinking it's to be developing a copyright platform from the bitcointalk forum. And I was thinking why not these philanthropists channel these resources to more advancements with an utmost remarkable usage.
But here I come with the vision directively that it's to the support of our dearest bitcointalk.
In this same vein, Op has confirmed with the team about how poor quality it's yet so far to assign it a workable solution to actualize the vision.
I think they should be given chances and come up with what they'd have at the final round maybe when get to the max of the project and just see what they'd get.
I haven't come across this demo to give it a rate but based on users trial being disregarded it because of it poor functions, maybe the current existing software should be considered to stay since users has much be friendly and usability with it but if these great philanthropists ca come up with a better one then it should also be considered.
To the best of all being said, the forum deserves the best.

[Apocollapse]

I'm curious which company you hired, seems to be not professional.

The agreement was supposed to be one year and now it's already 5 years, not to mention there are many bugs as you mentioned above.

But, it's what it's. Rather than paying for useless project, you can pay PowerGlove and "others" since they've improved this forum very well.

Edit:
Oh the company was Slickage with three people working on it.

$1.5 Million in 2015 is almost $2 Million now.

Yeah, that's Slickage's $100k monthly fee. The amounts aren't exact, though. I send approximately the correct amount to an intermediate wallet of my own, and then it gets sent to Slickage via Coinbase.

The total cost will probably be around $1.5 million, which is more than I'd hoped, though not entirely unexpected.

[NotATether]

I happen to have scraped over 40% of the forum's topics. The other 60% is expected to arrive over the next several weeks. There's a lot of things that I can do with this data, and while I've always stated I'd like to make a search engine off of it, it is actually possible to make a (read-only) copy of Bitcointalk.org with that data, and an Epochtalk frontend.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Frankly speaking I think many other members of this forum have already given up on the new forum software.

I had never been following it's development progress like some other members here, but the lack of release after so long just made it kind of a running joke--and I don't mean that as an insult to Theymos or anybody working on it.

Theymos, you're goddamn right the forum has made major improvements with the structure it's had for years and I've been saying for a while that I've gotten so used to the look and feel of the forum as I've known it since 2015 that changing to something else--even if it had a better UI and functionality--would be so jarring that it'd take me forever to get used to it.  I like this joint the way it is and has been, so that's where I stand.  Sucks that a big project like this had to be abandoned after so much effort, but it's probably for the best.

[hugeblack]

How much did this investment cost? And what is the future plan to develop the forum software?

[ABCbits]

Going forward, we will continue to make improvements to the current software.

I can guess the answer, but does that mean there won't be upgrade to SFM 2.X either?

Epochtalk has always been open source under the MIT license, so you can still go run it right now if you want; the code is in the repos in this Github organization. The developers have indicated to me that they intend to independently continue its development, without our support.

Do you know whether the developers will continue its development under MIT license or other open-source license?

[LoyceV]

The new forum software always felt a bit like a joke from before I joined Bitcointalk: "soon^TM", and I'm reaching my 10th anniversary here. If the alternative would have been to continue development for another 10 years, I'd say pulling the plug now is the right decision.

I can guess the answer, but does that mean there won't be upgrade to SFM 2.X either?

From what I've read in the past: that would be complicated with the current forum customizations.

[Timelord2067]

What kind of "end-date" for completion or "penalties" etc., for non delivery ^{(you did have a "walk-away" clause ... didn't you?)} did you write into the M.O.U. that you signed with them?