Bitcoin fees and future

[Naruto111]

So when mining we actually calculating other people transactions. What if everone just mining and nobody make transactions? The whole point of bitcoin is that it has no fees if you use professional mode wont that defeat the purpose of not having a central computer? And after 2140 there will be no reward to maintain the network then why would anyone bother doing it? Would the people investing money into these servers not just quit right away causing the whole system to collapse and the value of money be completely lost?

[odolvlobo]

The point of bitcoin has never been no fees.

Anyway, if there are no transactions, then Bitcoin is dead.

[franky1]

firstly the normal blockreward is sufficient to cover miners for a few cycles(halving periods) before fee's become meaningful(say 2040+)
so no real need of a fee war to force people to pay more right now to feed the miners

however by the time we hit year 2100 the normal blockreward would be so small, no one would care because fee's will be the significant portion by then anyways
no one will even think or discuss the blockreward in 2140 as all discussion way before then would be about fees

also by then (reminder we are talking about 75 years from now) the bitcoin blockchain and basically all electronic tech would have evolved to allow more data per 10min to not be limited to just a few mb per 10min(we already can surpass 4mb safely right now if dev-politics was not in the way(hint: not a technical barrier, just a dev-political barrier))

so its not going to be a situation in 75 year of only ~3000tx per block having to pay $1000 worth of sats per tx to cover a $3m block cost, but instead we would and should have scaled the space for many many many more transactions per block by then, so each transaction pays very little per transaction to still be a popular value transfer network

remember just 25 years ago kodak was arguing 1megabyte flashmemory was going to be too expensive to be consumer practical.. now we have terrabyte+ flash memory

[Despairo]

Bitcoin will be very expensive because the miners only earn through solving the cryptography, run ASICs requires electricity cost, initial investment to buy the hardware and maintenance the hardware. If the miners didn't earn enough to cover the money they spent, they might leave it, just like solo miners who have left Bitcoin.

But, 2140 is really long to go, the recent problem is we don't even know what will happen with Bitcoin after centralized institutions own most of Bitcoin and tightening the rules about Bitcoin.

[MusaMohamed]

The point of bitcoin has never been no fees.

Anyway, if there are no transactions, then Bitcoin is dead.

Satoshi Nakamoto said this years ago too in What's with this odd generation?.

If Bitcoin blockchain is alive and there is transaction volume, there is consequently transaction fee for Bitcoin miners.
Bitcoin blockchain is Proof of Work, and Bitcoin miners keep mining if they get positive income after deduction of input cost, through Bitcoin block subsidy and transaction fees.

Right.  Otherwise we couldn't have a finite limit of 21 million coins, because there would always need to be some minimum reward for generating.  In a few decades when the reward gets too small, the transaction fee will become the main compensation for nodes.  I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume.

[rodskee]

if there was no transactions in the bitcoin network the network will not collapse immediately most likely some miners are going to want to stick around for a bit and keep the network secure there will still be profits from that but it would not be as attractive anymore which may eventually lead to miners opting out of mining bitcoin this would not immediately make bitcoin crash though because the system is built in a way that mining difficulty will go down so that the remaining ones can still work efficiently and earn a little bit of profit

this will not happen though bitcoin is a currency that is used all over the world so i do not see a point in worrying about this

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

if there was no transactions in the bitcoin network the network will not collapse immediately most likely some miners are going to want to stick around for a bit and keep the network secure there will still be profits from that but it would not be as attractive anymore which may eventually lead to miners opting out of mining bitcoin this would not immediately make bitcoin crash though because the system is built in a way that mining difficulty will go down so that the remaining ones can still work efficiently and earn a little bit of profit

That will be more serious than negative mining revenue that usually causes Mining Capitulation. With transactions, transaction fees and Bitcoin block subsidy, Bitcoin miners that have weak fund for their mining business have to shut down their ASICs and capitulate from Bitcoin network when mining is not profitable.

When Bitcoin network has no transactions, that means there will be no new block found in my opinion, because return to time when there were only Bitcoin block subsidy and no other transactions like years ago, is very impossible IMO.

Bitcoin hash ribbon indicator and capitulation.
https://www.bitcoinmagazinepro.com/charts/hash-ribbons/

[Synchronice]

So when mining we actually calculating other people transactions. What if everone just mining and nobody make transactions? The whole point of bitcoin is that it has no fees if you use professional mode wont that defeat the purpose of not having a central computer? And after 2140 there will be no reward to maintain the network then why would anyone bother doing it? Would the people investing money into these servers not just quit right away causing the whole system to collapse and the value of money be completely lost?

Bitcoin is the number one cryptocurrency and its market cap is similar to market cap of top companies. There is no way for such a popular thing to not experience transactions on chain but even if we imagine the scenario when nobody makes a transaction, then I can confidently tell you that there will be nobody to mine. It's impossible for everybody to mine and nobody to make transactions because both of these scenarios are the opposite of each events. If nobody makes transaction, then why will somebody mine something that's dead? And if everybody mines, then it automatically means that many people make transactions.
The whole point of Bitcoin is not 0 fee, if it was, then there wouldn't be a fee system. After 2140 there will be no reward but Bitcoin will be so popular at that time that there will be millions of transactions every day and that will be enough to motivate miners to keep their mining rigs turned on.

[coupable]

The point of bitcoin has never been no fees.

Anyway, if there are no transactions, then Bitcoin is dead.

This is absolutely true and logical. My question is about the possibility that Bitcoin will not be available to everyone due to the scarcity factor that will affect the supply in the market and the difficulty of making transactions due to the high transaction fees after the completion of mining the last Bitcoin. Can't we talk about the "death of Bitcoin" clinically as happens with humans? I read articles about these futuristic approaches and I find them really interesting because they pose the issues from a completely objective point of view. What do you think?

[dzungmobile]

This is absolutely true and logical. My question is about the possibility that Bitcoin will not be available to everyone due to the scarcity factor that will affect the supply in the market and the difficulty of making transactions due to the high transaction fees after the completion of mining the last Bitcoin. Can't we talk about the "death of Bitcoin" clinically as happens with humans? I read articles about these futuristic approaches and I find them really interesting because they pose the issues from a completely objective point of view. What do you think?

There will be solutions for this, technically and unit of bitcoin. With the expectation that Bitcoin value will grow up and price will increase more, 1 satoshi will have more value in $ with time, and new smaller units can be created and use for Bitcoin transaction fees.

Solutions like Lightning Network, Bitcoin side chains and something new can help Bitcoin technically.

Sidechain Observer - Bitcoin L2 Projects & current state of development
[Did you know?] Bitcoin Table of Units

[BlackHatCoiner]

And after 2140 there will be no reward to maintain the network then why would anyone bother doing it?

Long before 2140, miners' income will be mainly determined by transaction fees. If there are no transactions, their income will drastically decline, which will reduce difficulty. The bet is that transaction volume will be large enough to compensate them enough to keep their machines running. One thing is certain: In the transaction-fee era, a block reward will be orders of magnitude more volatile than it is today.

[aoluain]

And after 2140 there will be no reward to maintain the network then why would anyone bother doing it?

Long before 2140, miners' income will be mainly determined by transaction fees. If there are no transactions, their income will drastically decline, which will reduce difficulty. The bet is that transaction volume will be large enough to compensate them enough to keep their machines running. One thing is certain: In the transaction-fee era, a block reward will be orders of magnitude more volatile than it is today.

If the mining difficulty reduces its a very appealing time for new miners to
start up because the hardware needed would be more affordable in order to
make a return.

Would it be right to say that the transaction fees would also drop which
could result in more movement of coins?

Anyway its really difficult to imagine Bitcoin transactions coming to a complete
stop, I can only see a constant trade and movement of Bitcoin and Satoshi's.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Would it be right to say that the transaction fees would also drop which could result in more movement of coins?

Transaction fees will not drop. The contrary: the competition will be much higher than today, and that's why it is considered enough of a reward. If demand for transaction confirmation is high, while supply remains the same (4 MB block size), then the price for block space skyrockets.

[Smartprofit]

Bitcoin is actually managed by three groups of people - miners, developers and holders. Bitcoin decentralization is simultaneously decentralization of coin mining, decentralization of development and decentralization of coin ownership.

It follows that globally, all three of these groups of people have common interests. If we assume that the further development of the first cryptocurrency will lead to the fact that it will be unprofitable for miners to maintain the security of the network, then I have no doubt that developers will come to the rescue. A hardfork will be made that will change the economy of the cryptocurrency so that all three management groups have the motivation to continue using the Bitcoin network.

We cannot look into the future a hundred years.

Therefore, we cannot say exactly what changes will be made to the Bitcoin code. However, I have no doubt that everything will be fine with Bitcoin.

[ChiBitCTy]

I do not understand cryptography, I would imagine less than 5% of the users here do.  That said I do understand many basic principles when it comes to bitcoin and in large part thanks to this forum.  But most of all thanks to the Greek Freak, the undisputed greatest educator of bitcoin, a guy who spent years of his life giving bitcoin seminars for free simply because he cares so much about bringing power back to the people in every possible way, and this was a way to change the money/payment etc systems. 

Those asking questions like this, this is the place to do it, but also if you truly are interested and care about the underlying technologies of bitcoin, then watch every single thing you can of this mans work- https://www.youtube.com/@aantonop/videos

"The Man Who Changed Bitcoin Forever: Andreas Antonopoulos - Bitcoin’s Greatest Advocate!"- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMwjKnQ05Fs

[coupable]

This is absolutely true and logical. My question is about the possibility that Bitcoin will not be available to everyone due to the scarcity factor that will affect the supply in the market and the difficulty of making transactions due to the high transaction fees after the completion of mining the last Bitcoin. Can't we talk about the "death of Bitcoin" clinically as happens with humans? I read articles about these futuristic approaches and I find them really interesting because they pose the issues from a completely objective point of view. What do you think?

There will be solutions for this, technically and unit of bitcoin. With the expectation that Bitcoin value will grow up and price will increase more, 1 satoshi will have more value in $ with time, and new smaller units can be created and use for Bitcoin transaction fees.

Solutions like Lightning Network, Bitcoin side chains and something new can help Bitcoin technically.

Sidechain Observer - Bitcoin L2 Projects & current state of development
[Did you know?] Bitcoin Table of Units

Or it becomes a primary store of value like gold, trading in specific ranges with opportunities for some altcoins whose price is determined by Bitcoin. When we reach that time, the price of Bitcoin will become more stable. What I mean is to apply the gold example to Bitcoin. Since gold is scarce and its storage and use are risky, it is traded in fiat currencies that represent a certain value of gold (theoretically). I m not saying this what will happen, I expect one of the possible scenarios.

[aoluain]

Would it be right to say that the transaction fees would also drop which could result in more movement of coins?

Transaction fees will not drop. The contrary: the competition will be much higher than today, and that's why it is considered enough of a reward. If demand for transaction confirmation is high, while supply remains the same (4 MB block size), then the price for block space skyrockets.

Ok, that makes sense, as above though I dont think it will come to that any time soon.

[mindrust]

You are thinking too far ahead. By 2140 you’ll be dead so it won’t be your problem. Bitcoin is a software. Whatever problems we might encounter in the future will be solved via updates. If btc was perfect from the start, there wouldn’t be any patches/updates but there are and there will be many others in the future. For example Segwit wasn’t present before 2017 If call that right. But then the circumstances demanded an update and the devs coded it. Stop listening to the doom sayers.

[hd49728]

You are thinking too far ahead. By 2140 you’ll be dead so it won’t be your problem. Bitcoin is a software. Whatever problems we might encounter in the future will be solved via updates. If btc was perfect from the start, there wouldn’t be any patches/updates but there are and there will be many others in the future. For example Segwit wasn’t present before 2017 If call that right. But then the circumstances demanded an update and the devs coded it. Stop listening to the doom sayers.

Take this "too far" discussion to read some quality posts about Bitcoin.

How is the 21 Million Bitcoin Cap Defined and Enforced?
Can Bitcoin's Hard Cap of 21 Million Be Changed?
What Will Happen to Bitcoin After All 21 Million are Mined?

I agree with you that we all mostly will die in 2140 and it's not our concern too far in future when we will very likely no longer be alive. Rather than feeling uncertain and fearful about what will happen in 2140, I advice reading this The bullish case for Bitcoin and focus on what we can do to enrich our financial wealth.

[MamBp9]

[quote author=rodskee link=topic=5529407.msg65040081#msg65040081 date=1739014434
this will not happen though bitcoin is a currency that is used all over the world so i do not see a point in worrying about this
[/quote
At present, Bitcoin is a very valuable asset in the global market which is gaining popularity and usage of bitcoin all over the world. Bitcoin is not valid in the world as it is used around the world.