Was Epochtalk doomed to fail?

[alani123]

It was obvious from early on that these particular developers lacked the seniority and experience in their field to handle something like this.

Your account is from 2013. Can you show some of your posts where you pointed this out early on? "In hindsight" is too late.

when doing business with millions, the safe solution would be to hire an experienced firm

I don't think the original intention was to spend millions of dollars on Epochtalk.

There have been ample of criticisms through the years. Because yes, indeed, the initial intention was to spend a million dollars on Epochtalk, with a $100k monthly budget.

For a blast for the past, this nice thread is quite indicative of how shocked everyone was back then to learn that the project has been just 50% over $1m. The project ended up costing around $6m.
Edit: forgot the link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=983572.msg10716083#msg10716083

[LoyceV]

with a $100k monthly budget.

I'm curious about this part: if it's just 3 guys, why such a high budget? Paying $33k per person per month for software development more than a decade ago sounds expensive.

[BenCodie]

This is perhaps what is funniest to me: the idea that Bitcointalk needs to do anything, other than exist. It doesn't need to change, evolve, adapt, or do anything except preserve the posts of Satoshi and other early contributors. The day that satoshi's posts change or disappear is the day I'll call it quits.

I guess this perspective should have been adopted when the topic of a new forum software came up, huh?

If everyone lived by that saying, no one would be guilty of anything. It's a cop out - but I don't care enough to continue this discussion.

I know you don't want to continue the discussion. You just want to criticize and then be free from having to explain yourself.

Entirely untrue. I already explained myself to the extent that I needed to, and if history is any indicator, explaining yourself on this forum is a severe waste of time, and ultimately nobody cares.

It's obviously ruled and influenced by those who dominated it early, and by those who are close to theymos.

They "dominated it" through providing consistently valuable contributions, the same way the maintainers of Bitcoin Core have "dominated" bitcoin.

Sure, that was the only way people climbed up the ranks. No backdoor deals, no rubbing shoulders, no rigging of the trust system, and so on. Not at all. Everyone is innocent.

It's obviously ruled and influenced by those who dominated it early, and by those who are close to theymos.

The fate of the forum was entrusted to theymos because he proved himself to have good leadership qualities, governing the forum in the same spirit of bitcoin governance.

I'm not going to contest why he was chosen as a leader, nor comment on overall leadership. I've already made the point multiple times that I'm more so criticizing the forum software specifically, rather than theymos and his leadership/administration.

I've seen enough corruption to know that corruption exists,

Its an entirely opt-in system, and nobody ever claimed it was perfect. If you don't like it, move on. Nobody is keeping you here.
 
Personally I'm not sure we could ask for a better dictator. Things could have gone horribly awry and they really didn't. Instead, we have a careful balance of freedom of speech and a system that motivates people to behave in a (mostly) civilized manner. If you feel its "corrupt", why waste a single further second of your life here?

I'm exercising this freedom of speech you speak of. Now I must leave for doing so? Make up your mind. I've already said I enjoy most aspects of the forum, and specified the parts I don't. It didn't indicate that I 100% hate the forum, nor do I think I waste my time here. I get value from reading here, and I try to provide the same back in normal posting scenarios that don't involve politics. Just because high-ranking people on the forum are corrupt, does not mean I'm going to leave the forum...it's just a fact of the forum to deal with.

That's a start if the forum wants to make a change - though honestly, I think it's too late. The way this forum is will not change, and if it does, it probably won't be done right, or will be usurped by those who are cozy with the way it is. Those who wanted to change it are probably already gone, and the ones with influence have such influence because of the way it is. All one can do at most is critique, but not expect change - nor fight for it, otherwise they'll likely lose a lot of time only to make next to no difference.

This is perhaps what is funniest to me: the idea that Bitcointalk needs to do anything, other than exist. It doesn't need to change, evolve, adapt, or do anything except preserve the posts of Satoshi and other early contributors. The day that satoshi's posts change or disappear is the day I'll call it quits.

This is perhaps what is funniest to me: the idea that a member sitting in the ivory tower of the current way of things says that things don't need to change, evolve, adapt or do anything except preserve its history.

I don't quite see the relevance of historic relics like satoshi's posts, why anyone would remove them, or who said the primary and only purpose of this forum is now to preserve those posts, and nothing else.

[Mia Chloe]

Frankly speaking creating the Epoch forum was a great step in rear sense at least but down the rail it didn't seem so any longer. Just like loyce V mentioned Theymos didn't intend to waste that much on a project and allow it all go to waste. I think it was more of a late realisation by the forum administrators that the end pursuit wasn't really worth it as much as it seemed to.

This current SMF forum isn't perfect but trust me it's fine. And that actually also raises a quite funny question which is ; were we really ready to abandon the final forum by Satoshi?

with a $100k monthly budget.

I'm curious about this part: if it's just 3 guys, why such a high budget? Paying $33k per person per month for software development more than a decade ago sounds expensive.

Especially if it was in bitcoin which I believe it would be, then they should basically be whales already in theory.

[alani123]

Someone sent me something interesting in private. Weird to seek messaging me in private just for this but whatever. I understand people not wanting to voice concerns over this issue that may be seen as contentious. But the data that was shared with me is public so I'll post it myself alright.

So as I said in the OP there has been some intense criticism about the topic at hand and how it was handled.
The chain of discussion is very long, fragmented and has spanned though many years. So to pick up the pieces is quite a task. Theymos however did leave some responses that were telling. I'll quote an interesting one below:

Slickage was recommended by Warren Togami, who has himself done important technical work for the forum and Bitcoin Core. I trust him. After talking to James, I was satisfied that Slickage would be able to do the job. There are many software development firms. I probably could have found one that’s cheaper and better. But I don’t have time to research this (I’m a full-time college student), I don’t really know how to determine whether one firm is better than another anyway, and few trustworthy people were willing and/or able to help me find one. So I picked the first firm I found that was capable of doing the job well (after several years of looking). The main factors that convinced me that Slickage would be able to do a good job were: When I talked with him, James convinced me that he was very familiar with all of the relevant technical issues. Like myself, James wants this software to become the premier forum software on the Web. He wants to sell custom modifications and support for this software in the future. Therefore, he has a strong interest and incentive in creating something really wonderful and having it used very successfully on bitcointalk.org. Slickage was recommended by Warren, and Warren is in Hawaii and able to directly supervise them to some degree.

Source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2mcdb4/comment/cm3e0fa/

This comes from a thread that was deleted on Reddit so if it wasn't for someone having linked it in an article it wouldn't have been easy to find.

This partly answers the question of why these devs were picked which I said was still unanswered. Theymos had already revealed why these developers were picked. From this thread I also learn that the devs were four and not three.

Based on Theymos' answer above, these devs were picked because they were recommended by someone established and trusted, who also offered supervision. Was this supervision more than just a promise in the end? Well that would be impossible to know without word from the devdlopers or theymos or ideally Mr. Warren himself. I'm only speculating here, but since a tech industry heavyweight like Mr. Warren had his name in this ordeal, wouldn't he take it upon himself to also tell Theymos to better shut this down instead of keep paying at some point between 2014 and now? Why did to have to take so long?

So the main question that remains unanswered is why the funding was kept up for so long.

[joker_josue]

There were several red flags about hiring these specific developers but age is also an important one. When you do business with millions of $, you go with the safe options. The conventional knowledge about software development is that to become a senior developer you need around 10 years of hands on experience. University doesn't count as business experience. At 25 you're fresh off university and you may have one or two years of business experience at best. You're nowhere near a senior developer.

~~

There are exceptions of course. For instance, Linus Tolvards, the Benevolent Dictator for Life of Linux, started work on the project when he was 21. Similar story for Vitalik Buterin. Hell, even Theymos is a profoundly talented individual because going by his word where he said he's 21 around 12 years ago. Which means he coded the first ever block explorer when he was a teenager.

So to an extent, maybe we can excuse Theymos for entrusting people around his age. But as I wrote above, when doing business with millions, the safe solution would be to hire an experienced firm, instead of expecting three young adults to show profound levels of intellect and complete a vast project on their own.

I think this idea that because you are 25 years old, you are not capable of leading and carrying out big projects is a big mistake. In fact, it is because of this that a generation of young people lost opportunities in their lives, especially for those who had this idea in the late 90s, early 2000s.

Yes, you gave two exceptions, but in the computer world, there are "many exceptions":
Bill Gates founded Microsoft when he was 19, and his friend Paul Allen was even younger. They didn't even finish college. And the business became worth millions.
Steve Jobs was 21 years old when he created Apple. And Mark Zuckerberg was 19 when he created Facebook.
We don't even know how old Satoshi is, he could have been a 15 year old "kid".

Finally, there are many success stories of young people under 25 who have managed to create companies/businesses worth millions. The issue is not age, but the attitude demonstrated towards a (big) project. Besides, it's easy to point fingers now, but if everything had gone well, they would have been said to be the best choice in the "world": young entrepreneurs.

Yes, there may have been a casting mistake, as even million-dollar companies make. But that had nothing to do with people's ages. It is true that having older people can bring wisdom and experience to projects that is very different from young people, and can provide greater guarantees and stability. But this does not guarantee that the project will be successful, as there are also many stories of older people who failed when leading million-dollar projects.

[theymos]

Was Epochtalk doomed to fail?

Maybe not doomed, but in hindsight, it would've been surprising if it had actually turned out as well as expected. In 2011-2014, I thought that all forum software in existence was trash, and I thought that if we threw a bunch of money at a solid dev team, then it'd be easy for them to make something better from scratch. This was a very naïve plan. First of all, the "not invented here" instinct is just stupid: existing solutions need to be really bad to justify starting from scratch. We should've just stuck with SMF, or at least modified some existing software like Discourse. I also vastly overestimated how easy it is to solve big, complex problems by just throwing money at them. (Which is a common mistake I see people making all the time now.) You need effective managers/executives to turn money into solutions, and few/none of those were involved here.

My open solicitation of bids on the project was probably a good instinct, and I tried to do it reasonably, but I had zero skill/experience in this. After years of soliciting bids without anything panning out, everyone was getting frustrated with various annoyances with SMF, and a lot of people were complaining about me not spending money -- just sitting on a ton of BTC and doing very little with it. So I found it very convincing when somebody way more professional- and competent-looking than any prior bidder appeared, coming with the recommendation of someone I'd already been successfully working with for quite some time.

It would've been better if it had been a total scam, or if it had just completely exploded at the start somehow. But they actually were a halfway-decent group of developers, and they did produce a halfway-decent product eventually. And after something very substantial had been produced, it just kept feeling more reasonable to continue trying to make it work than to kill it, even though the slowness was obviously ridiculous. My thought process was always: "I'm seeing them making good progress. This could eventually turn into something useful. Why destroy what's already been invested? Let's just continue it a little longer and see how it goes."
With hindsight, clearly it would've been better in wealth terms to be ultra-miserly, but this isn't supposed to be some weird investment fund. From this point forward, should I spend as little BTC as humanly possible, in the hopes that in 10 years it'll be worth way more? I don't think that that would be appropriate now, and I didn't think that this was appropriate in the past. I regret the specific unskillful decisions I made which led to this failure, but I don't regret my attempt at making progress.

Based on Theymos' answer above, these devs were picked because they were recommended by someone established and trusted, who also offered supervision. Was this supervision more than just a promise in the end?

Warren was involved with the forum for several years in total, but he drifted away a couple of years after that, after which he stopped providing any oversight on Epochtalk. Since he was a business student in addition to having a lot of tech knowledge, I relied on him for a lot of business-related advice around that time. In hindsight, this wasn't a good idea. I definitely don't think that he was intentionally misleading me, but a lot of the advice he gave me was pretty bad, looking back. (He was fairly young at the time - I don't blame him.)

why such a high budget?

IIRC, my perception at the time was that the rate was only a little on the high side. I was thinking:
 - If I hired full-time the same number of developers, it'd be about the same cost, assuming they were very-high-skill developers. (And if I actually did that, there's no way that I would have the skill to manage those developers.)
 - It would be much cheaper, and likely to be of higher quality, than if I hired some huge software development company.
 - It was easily within the forum's budget.

If they had delivered the intended results, I would agree even now that it had been a reasonable rate.

Because they failed to deliver the intended results, I subsequently negotiated their rate down a lot.

[Vod]

Theymos, with all due respect, you wasted so much bitcoin on this project, you gave thousands of bitcoin to treasurers, you rewarded bitcoin to a thief who stole from you and you still trust him...

Isn't it time to step down and let someone competent control the donated funds?

[nutildah]

I don't quite see the relevance of historic relics like satoshi's posts

Ah OK now I understand what the problem is. We have a fundamental difference in values, and that's fine, we'll leave it at that.

Isn't it time to step down and let someone competent control the donated funds?

Who would that be, and how much should they be paid  

Its always going to be a conundrum, but not for me, as it doesn't involve me and I could care less. Haven't heard any of the original donors complain about the "problem" in years, anyway.

[Vod]

Who would that be, and how much should they be paid  

With the kind of money we are talking about (over 1,000 btc), you could hire any auditor like Deloitte and Touché, for maybe a single bitcoin a year.   Much cheaper than the thousands Theymos has lost.

Hire them with the promise they won't look into the fraudulent history, and within a couple years this would be a modern Web3 forum attracting main stream attention.  The businesses here would thrive (no extortion payments) and crypto would gain credibility.  Or just go with the status quo.   Ignore his inability to manage funds and allow him to continue rewarding criminals.

You know, we all freak out about AI not being trained properly, yet we are ignoring how bitcoin is not being promoted properly - especially with all the coin spent.

Its always going to be a conundrum, but not for me, as it doesn't involve me and I could care less. Haven't heard any of the original donors complain about the "problem" in years, anyway.

I respect your opinion so I'll just leave mine and not argue.  Just my two Satoshis worth - but I think any complaints by original donors have long since been deleted.  :/

[nutildah]

I respect your opinion so I'll just leave mine and not argue.  Just my two Satoshis worth - but I think any complaints by original donors have long since been deleted.  :/

Thanks Vod. And I don't want to argue with you either, but like with BenCodie, when you guys make these kind of allegations, you should really back them up with some kind of evidence. Otherwise it just seems like you're trying to undermine confidence in the forum and our Dear Leader... for what reasons I don't really understand.

Its fine to be critical - that's what helps people grow and change for the better - but to throw around allegations of wrong-doing without substance is futile at best and destructive at worst. Anyway, I don't have anything more to say on the matter so I'll leave it at that.

[Vod]

Thanks Vod. And I don't want to argue with you either, but like with BenCodie, when you guys make these kind of allegations, you should really back them up with some kind of evidence. Otherwise it just seems like you're trying to undermine confidence in the forum and our Dear Leader... for what reasons I don't really understand.

I have no problem backing my statements up with evidence.  I will do so tomorrow, as it is 2am where I am, and it is the sixth anniversary of my stroke so I intend to have a quiet night in.  

Can you tell me what evidence you'd like?  I have:

• Theymos PMing me pretending to be neutral vs OG
• Theymos sending out PMs ordering us to remove distrust on OG or face blacklist
• Theymos paying OG to be a treasurer and setting him up on default trust
• Theymos rewarding OG when he stole forked coins
• Theymos deleting entire reddit threads that involve OG

etc...

I have no problem posting such evidence, but I do take pause at spending much time researching and typing in the information, only to have it deleted by a moderator.    I have no idea what you think BenCodie does, but I want to maintain my position of trust in the community, so I will do as you ask.

[LoyceV]

Isn't it time to step down and let someone competent control the donated funds?

Who would that be, and how much should they be paid  

I wouldn't be able to name a candidate for this.

With the kind of money we are talking about (over 1,000 btc), you could hire any auditor like Deloitte and Touché, for maybe a single bitcoin a year.

That's basically like an accountant, right? They're not supposed to be in charge of operations.
I don't think handing over decision making to a large corporation would make the forum any better.

within a couple years this would be a modern Web3 forum

That sounds just like another buzz-word mostly used by DeFi-scams. I'd leave this forum if it turns into some dynamic moving site where algorithms decide what I get to read.

[Vod]

within a couple years this would be a modern Web3 forum

That sounds just like another buzz-word mostly used by DeFi-scams. I'd leave this forum if it turns into some dynamic moving site where algorithms decide what I get to read.

Bzzzzz, I'm not a scammer, you know that. 

A modern forum can provide both a dynamic buzz type content, or a static one, depending on your preference.  We can't be wary of new technologies because we're not familiar with them.  I never planned to lose most control over my left arm, so I do welcome any addon that can provide info I want without my typing it in.    What is wrong with having a GUI restricting the type of information you are presented?    Or even a GUI providing biased information based on your preference - left, neutral, or right.    There are already websites that dissect this info and provide it as needed.

[NotATether]

A reminder that Epochtalk is open source and anyone can pick up the development from where they left off. And even the original dev team stated they will still work on an independent version.

After Bitcointalk Search is up, I plan to make a read-only version of the forum using the archived posts that can be viewed from some Epochtalk lookalike.

That being said, any project that does not get enough manhours assigned to it is going to fail.

within a couple years this would be a modern Web3 forum

That sounds just like another buzz-word mostly used by DeFi-scams. I'd leave this forum if it turns into some dynamic moving site where algorithms decide what I get to read.

A modern forum can provide both a dynamic buzz type content, or a static one, depending on your preference.  We can't be wary of new technologies because we're not familiar with them.

Wallet extensions like Metamask and Ethereum turn every site into a Web3 site because of Ethereum EIPs 6963 and 1193. I realized this after I had accidentially connected the DOGE website to my coinbase wallet while fooling around in devtools.

[BenCodie]

Thanks Vod. And I don't want to argue with you either, but like with BenCodie, when you guys make these kind of allegations, you should really back them up with some kind of evidence. Otherwise it just seems like you're trying to undermine confidence in the forum and our Dear Leader... for what reasons I don't really understand.

I have no problem backing my statements up with evidence.  I will do so tomorrow, as it is 2am where I am, and it is the sixth anniversary of my stroke so I intend to have a quiet night in. 

Can you tell me what evidence you'd like?  I have:

• Theymos PMing me pretending to be neutral vs OG
• Theymos sending out PMs ordering us to remove distrust on OG or face blacklist
• Theymos paying OG to be a treasurer and setting him up on default trust
• Theymos rewarding OG when he stole forked coins
• Theymos deleting entire reddit threads that involve OG

etc...

I have no problem posting such evidence, but I do take pause at spending much time researching and typing in the information, only to have it deleted by a moderator.    I have no idea what you think BenCodie does, but I want to maintain my position of trust in the community, so I will do as you ask.

Unlike Vod, I do not have leisurely free time to dig for what I've already seen, analyse the blockchain (for who knows how long it will take) to connect the financial dots, correctly annotate and format the information into a post that can not be disputed, only for it to not be cared about nor actioned. Both Nutildah and LoyceV know that it's a huge job, and use the "get evidence" card to achieve one of two things:
- Send me on a mission that will ultimately be ignored, thus winning by having me waste my time.
- Discredit me when I deny the call to get evidence.

Thank you for coming forward Vod, because if you didn't, they'd continually discredit me with statements such as "back up your evidence don't be like BenCodie" as punishment for speaking on the topic. Oh, what a non-corrupt community spirit that would have shined.

I don't quite see the relevance of historic relics like satoshi's posts

Ah OK now I understand what the problem is. We have a fundamental difference in values, and that's fine, we'll leave it at that.

Yes, you're a part of/support corruption as it's in your interests to do so, while I don't...Happy to leave it at that too, that's where I was before we even started posting.

Isn't it time to step down and let someone competent control the donated funds?

Who would that be, and how much should they be paid 

Spoken like a true corrupt individual. "Oh you want someone to do something for the community? How much are they going to be paid?"

I'd personally be happy to manage a signature of the donation wallet, listen to the community and their opinions when it comes to me giving a signature, and I'm happy to do it for free as I'm sure several others would be. Why for free? Because it takes fuck all effort to manage one signature and to sign it when called upon, and no one should have been paid to do that to begin with if it's a true community. Just about anyone who isn't corrupt and knows how to manage their part in a multi-signature wallet would surely agree.

...not surprising that LoyceV had a similar mentality:

I think creating an advisory board of trusted forum members before spending any money on development would help a lot.

First point on the agenda: the salary of the forum board members

How you have both completely forgotten about the community doing something for free for the forum is astounding, and for me, raises the question for LoyceV - how much have you made from the donation wallet? (Of course I don't count on there being blockchain evidence since I'm sure there's a relationship between the donation wallet and the reason why mixers were rampant on the forum, oops, should I not have said that last part? I digress...) You make out on your website as if you do it all for charity, but what is your real motivation? You know, because everyone must get paid for even as little as giving advice before spending money on development, so I could only imagine there was a price or motivation behind that all of the works that you've done "for the forum"?

Its always going to be a conundrum, but not for me, as it doesn't involve me and I could care less.

Of course not, you are just an innocent non-corrupt person who minds their own business! Nothing to see here over at nutildah!

In all seriousness, people who are corrupt generally don't care until something they care about is effected by the corruption being right done by. Hence you were quick to throw ~BenCodie on your trust settings a long time ago, when some of your other buddies were displaying corrupt traits and of course, I was in the middle of it. So either you're a part of it, benefit from it in some way, or you generally just have moral flaws. Whatever the case may be, only you know, and when it doesn't involve me, I could care less too.

Haven't heard any of the original donors complain about the "problem" in years, anyway.

Probably because they all gave up hope. That's how a donation starts...a hope for something better, then either happiness for what they contributed to creating, or loss of hope that it ultimately meant nothing. By that point, who is going to be bothered saying anything or complain, when it'll be met with "it was a donation what are you complaining about"?. That's the dark side of charities and donations, ladies and gentlemen.

A reminder that Epochtalk is open source and anyone can pick up the development from where they left off. And even the original dev team stated they will still work on an independent version.

After Bitcointalk Search is up, I plan to make a read-only version of the forum using the archived posts that can be viewed from some Epochtalk lookalike.

That being said, any project that does not get enough manhours assigned to it is going to fail.

Give me the fiat equivalent of what was spent on epochtalk, heck even a tenth of it, and I'll commandeer a project that will build something even better than epochtalk from scratch.

People are quick to say "oh it's open source and anyone can develop it" or in suchmoon's words:

You can fix it up, run a demo, and we'll all pile on to make fun of it.

Though it seems you are overlooking the incentive to do so - there is none for as long as this forum exists. A new forum software would need to be built from scratch, by a different team, it's not a simply community effort or something a dev can do in a day. it's an entire project - hence it got donations to begin with, and why people gave it years before asking where it's at.

Also, the original dev stated they will work on an independent version? I wouldn't want anyone to hold their breathe after the last decade, or that even when it's done, that it'll be anywhere near competitive with any other forum software. They had their chance, they screwed it up. If epochtalk was built in 1-2 years (normal project time for even casual development), the community could have continued building it or made it greater (as open source projects with good communities goes), though the reality is that even if it is done in the next 1, 2, 5 years, it's not only going to be outdated, it's not going to have the same motivated and strong bitcointalk community to continue building on it. That is something permanently lost, whether epochtalk is done or not.

Wallet extensions like Metamask and Ethereum turn every site into a Web3 site because of Ethereum EIPs 6963 and 1193. I realized this after I had accidentially connected the DOGE website to my coinbase wallet while fooling around in devtools.

Yes and no. It's a key component however that's not how one should not classify a website as Web3 based on whether they allow you to connect with a wallet extension or not. There are other conditions that vary a project/app on where it sits between Web2 and Web3.

within a couple years this would be a modern Web3 forum

That sounds just like another buzz-word mostly used by DeFi-scams. I'd leave this forum if it turns into some dynamic moving site where algorithms decide what I get to read.

A modern forum can provide both a dynamic buzz type content, or a static one, depending on your preference.  We can't be wary of new technologies because we're not familiar with them.

Fully agree Vod. Those who are afraid or wary of new technologies (or not anything) though are intelligent enough to comprehend them, are corrupt. There's no ifs or buts. Jaime Daimon knew the threat that Bitcoin was to the money system, he understood economics and money (being the CEO of a bank), and yet he stood there and called it a scam and shot it down to zero - this is no different in the case of LoyceV, who is disappointingly and eerily sounding the same:

within a couple years this would be a modern Web3 forum

That sounds just like another buzz-word mostly used by DeFi-scams.

Web3 means open source, it means decentralized back-end infrastructure (no private code or servers), and it means community governed. Yes, people abuse the term "web3" because it is such a powerful thing if true, and a thing that a non-tech person wouldn't be able to fully verify easily if not true, hence so many use it and tarnish is - causing people like you to not know (or act as if they don't know) the difference between web2 and web3. Similar to how Bitcoin was to money, and also how powerful it was to scammers. Similar thing except Web3 relates to the internet and application infrastructure.

I bet you and nutildah hate the sound of that, given you are seemingly both against most of the concepts and values I described above. It's especially ironic that you made a (not even relevant) point of hating an algorithm deciding what you read, yet here you are collecting and storing data on every single user, post (and go knows what else) in this forum, which are both Web2 apps do - they violate privacy, are closed source, are controlled by one or a small private group, and probably (usually) take advantage of trust by worming around and doing all sorts of gross and violating things with data, that if exposed, people/their users wouldn't approve of. I hope you don't fit into that category with your little club Loyce...To me it seems like an intentional comment for you to make, since you are obviously an intelligent person who is completely aware of what they're doing when they describe something good that is against their not-so-good interests as a "buzz-word used by DeFi-scams". Oh and why hide where where you got that quote from?

A word of advice to you both? Don't be like Jaime Daimon who spoke against Bitcoin out of his own business interests. The nonsense he spoke is comparable to some of the nonsense both of you are peppering into your posts. Getting paid to manage a multi signature wallet? Salaries for giving input on how community donations should be spent on bitcoin and its community. Even Web3 being a buzz word for DeFi scams? Those who are not corrupt and know the nonsense in those statements can see right through the motives behind what you are saying, and it tarnishes your credibility. LoyceV, I trusted you despite believing your tools should be open source so that they can be self-hosted instead of reliant on your server (and wondering for what reason they aren't), and despite this, still had you as someone I would trust...and while it means nothing in this broken trust system, you are off my trust list. Nutildah, you've always been questionable and I never knew if I trusted your general existence or not, and even though you were quick to put ~BenCodie on your list...now, I officially do not trust you...because you're right, our values are different, and on a personal level I don't believe yours are morally a high enough standard to be trusted.

within a couple years this would be a modern Web3 forum

I'd leave this forum if it turns into some dynamic moving site where algorithms decide what I get to read.

Web3 has not much to do with algorithms deciding what you read. That's a forefront Web2 concept...hence Twitter/X (web2), TikTok (web2), Meta/instagram/facebook (web2), Google (web2) love and borderline exploit the shit out of that concept...and even if an algorithm existed on a truly Web3 forum, it'd be an algorithm that is open source and modifiable by the community who made it.

[Vod]

I have no problem backing my statements up with evidence.  I will do so tomorrow, as it is 2am where I am, and it is the sixth anniversary of my stroke so I intend to have a quiet night in. 

Unlike Vod, I do not have leisurely free time to dig for what I've already seen, analyse the blockchain (for who knows how long it will take) to connect the financial dots, correctly annotate and format the information into a post that can not be disputed, only for it to not be cared about nor actioned.

This is so true that I removed the draft I started last night.  Why am I wasting my limited time in a community that recognizes wealth above all?  The information is out there - some of it harder to find than others - but I risk being banned for posting directly lest I be censored or silenced like r/bitcoin.  Before you ask why I would even care, think about the months I spent protecting newbies by my actions in default trust.   It would prove my point about the corruption, but it would also open newbies up to new escrow and loan scams. 

Both nutildah and Loyce do great work for the community, so I don't want a subject like this to come between us, especially when it shouldn't be discussed in Theymos' domain anyway.  It's only the announcement of another $6 million USD in donations being thrown away due to incompetence that I even noticed this thread.    Theymos needs to step down, and the donated coins need to be secured before they are sent to more friends, but I'm not going to harp on it since I want to concentrate on bitcoin's future.   Censorship and corruption are directly against Satoshi's principles of immutability and distribution. 

[LoyceV]

I do not have leisurely free time to dig for what I've already seen, analyse the blockchain (for who knows how long it will take) to connect the financial dots, correctly annotate and format the information into a post that can not be disputed

But you do have time to make huge accusation posts without any evidence?

I'd personally be happy to manage a signature of the donation wallet, listen to the community and their opinions when it comes to me giving a signature, and I'm happy to do it for free as I'm sure several others would be.

As long as nobody asks you for any evidence, I guess?

...not surprising that LoyceV had a similar mentality:

First point on the agenda: the salary of the forum board members

Pointing out the obvious human nature isn't a "mentality", it's being realistic.

for me, raises the question for LoyceV - how much have you made from the donation wallet?

Which donation wallet? I've listed donations received on loyce.club, and "the forum" isn't on that list.

I don't count on there being blockchain evidence

So I guess you're not taking my word for it either....

You make out on your website as if you do it all for charity, but what is your real motivation?

It's like reporting posts: all small things to improve the forum. Feel free to create a topic in Reputation about me. Or use my reputation thread. This is my last response to your unfounded off-topic accusations in this thread.

Give me the fiat equivalent of what was spent on epochtalk, heck even a tenth of it, and I'll commandeer a project that will build something even better than epochtalk from scratch.

You're asking for $600k without showing any skills. Start with a business plan.

[joker_josue]

It's quite interesting the observations I read about the spending of donated money and about web development, and about how everything was poorly done, and so on. It is clear that they are just pointing the finger, without any constructive stance or presenting solutions.

Wait, some say to put the money into world-renowned institutions, as it will be well managed and they will "theoretically" build something "better". But aren't these the same institutions that are hired by governments and other organizations, which take years to deliver projects, spending millions of dollars, and then the end result is rubbish? Well, maybe it only happens in my country...

Sometimes I wonder if they really know the universe of forums. I would like to know how many forums exist that are +10 years old, have +3 million users, and have +65 million posts. A forum that does not use insecure resources such as JavaScript allows normal use on the Tor network - even if it is on the surface, among other things.  In addition to there being widespread freedom of expression, where the community itself self-regulates what happens on the forum.

I happen to know one that's 20 years old, but it only has 230k users, sells advertising and uses affiliate links, javascript and other features, and is much more strict about the type of conversations that can take place. But, they point me to a forum that is 10 years old and has more than 1 million users.

Saying that the person in charge of the forum is a bad manager is funny. Did you make mistakes? Yes, all great managers make mistakes. I remember Steve Jobs, he made so many mistakes that the shareholders kicked him out. But when that happened, the business didn't improve until they called him back. The result is that today the company is what it is thanks to what this "bad manager" did. Imagine what the company would be like today if he were a "good manager".

Also, something that has happened to all of us (and what has never happened is because we have never really been involved in anything). When you invest time and money in a project, you usually reach a point where it is difficult to give up even if you see that things are not going well. There is always a point at which people always expect things to change. It's hard when that happens, because sooner or later, the person realizes that they shouldn't have been trying to move forward for so long. However, the resources invested make this discernment difficult. And this happens to all managers, big and small, good or bad.

Back to the real point, about the money wasted (yes, it was a mistake) and about creating better forum software.

First, at the time, I don't remember the main financiers thinking it was a bad investment, based on the information they had they acted in the way they thought best. Second, if things had gone well, we wouldn't be having this conversation today and we would say it was an excellent investment. Third, over the last 10 years, I have never seen anyone from this community truly trying to do something to improve this forum or create something new (I apologize if I'm wrong, but that's my perception). And I'm not talking about improvements in terms of community, content or leadership. I'm talking about technical improvements.

The forum, which brought together the best developers of one of the biggest projects that unites us all - Bitcoin. Were there no developers capable of creating new forum software? I don't believe that anyone who develops a blockchain isn't capable of creating something like a forum. So, deep down, there was never any real interest in changing... let's face it... there wasn't. I haven't seen a large number of developers internally come together to try to do something different.

This "Epochtalk" thing - I don't even understand the name, anyway... Isn't it open source? If they are so interested, why don't they take it and try to develop it? I admit, I don't have the knowledge to do such a thing, but I sincerely believe that there are users on this forum who are capable of doing so.

It's easy to place difficult decisions on others, and then criticize them if they don't get it right. But coming up with truly useful solutions is what’s difficult. I'm not saying that criticism is bad, it can help you improve. Now, criticism should be constructive, not destructive - which is what I see most here.

[Vod]

I would like to know how many forums exist that are +10 years old, have +3 million users, and have +65 million posts.

This broke deepseek!

I pasted that quote into the engine, and it started spitting out a list of the larger ones, then everything vanished and it wrote "Sorry, that's beyond my current scope. Let’s talk about something else."  LOL!

Saying that the person in charge of the forum is a bad manager is funny. Did you make mistakes? Yes, all great managers make mistakes.

Managing a community with paid moderators while being able to get a degree wouldn't take the skills of a great manager - just someone with high school budgeting.  I am a funny guy, but I'm not just saying he is incompetent for just that one mistake, as big and obvious as it was.  Remember that every single treasurer he gave coins to stole from him, and he still didn't learn and paid one of the thieves more.   When you reward a thief with donated funds, that's not a bad manager anyway - that's a criminal.

This is my last on the subject - everyone can see what is going on - we all will act based on our values.  :/