For those that use Bitcoin Core as a wallet, how do you plan safety?

[ABCbits]

Remembering 12 seed/recovery words isn't practical. But while Bitcoin Core never support BIP 39, you could do what you described by backup your master private key instead. Here's quick example for descriptor wallet.

1. Where are you going to store that backup since you can't write it down?

2. Does Bitcoin Core even have an RPC for importing descriptors into a brand new wallet?

3. I thought Bitcoin Core used a single HD seed (i.e. an xprv) to derive all the private keys? Or is that only for legacy wallets?

1. It's not very practical, but you could do one of these. I was just mentioning other ways that doesn't involve backup wallet.dat file.

• Convert to simpler encoding and then write it down.
• Convert to QR code and print it.
• Simply print the descriptor.

2. Yes, see https://bitcoincore.org/en/doc/28.0.0/rpc/wallet/importdescriptors/.
3. I don't remember Bitcoin Core behavior on legacy HD wallet. But desciptor wallet use single master key (tprv...) with 8 different derivation. Here's example from Bitcoin Core 28.0.

Code:

pkh(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/44h/1h/0h/0/*)#ldaa7mgc
pkh(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/44h/1h/0h/1/*)#wecurwcq
sh(wpkh(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/49h/1h/0h/0/*))#89ywzylr
sh(wpkh(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/49h/1h/0h/1/*))#pxvtef5h
tr(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/86h/1h/0h/0/*)#mgdksdrl
tr(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/86h/1h/0h/1/*)#2ughdcn8
wpkh(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/84h/1h/0h/0/*)#up72qynd
wpkh(tprv8ZgxMBicQKsPf4fVacbdYJEzWfZqKCPTe8ug3qRNkxSocM4QTivhYMXZxJdpaNev3NEhc8xxs8L1umh39VH8N6EJctNPpbyoMY5Ur3NL1sB/84h/1h/0h/1/*)#d4mta3r4

[Pmalek]

I have an Electrum wallet backed up by 12 words seed phrase (memorized in my brain) and I also have one Bitcoin Core wallet. I bought a few flash drives from local electronics store and paid a few bucks in each of them. You can buy them for 5-6 dollars from Newegg. So, I stored my wallet.dat file on flash drive and encrypted it with my Electrum wallet's 12 words seed phrase but I made a few modifications and removed/added a few words for extra protection (extra risk, I know).
P.S. I know that my approach is crazy for many people but I did it for fun and I can afford to lose them. I'm sharing this simply to show OP that he can save wallet.dat in flash drive and encrypt it with the strong password for security.

I can understand that you are only doing this for fun or you are conducting an experiment to see if you will still remember your seed and decryption password in the future. Still, this is a very dangerous method, and it's not recommended to rely solely on your memory like that. Our memory can be unreliable and usually much more with age. Not only do you have to remember your seed but you also have to remember the changes you made to the password. Both are no-goes for a quality long-term backup solution.

[LoyceV]

What is your "more balanced approach"?

I worry less about the unlikely scenarios, and more about the likely ones. For example, I've forgotten more passwords in my life than I've had houses burn down

[takuma sato]

What is your "more balanced approach"?

I worry less about the unlikely scenarios, and more about the likely ones. For example, I've forgotten more passwords in my life than I've had houses burn down

I used to think this but I have meet now several people that lost their homes on floods and burnings and I realized there should be a plan before that would happen, so I need to think about ways to diversify the wallet file location. As it stands I can only find a solution on hosting the file somewhere online with very strong encryption similar to bitcoin's level and trust encryption not being broken, even if I don't like the idea that potentially someone could get ahold of the files, since I would also save passwords, tax related stuff and so on while im at it. Perhaps the solution could be in diversifying passwords in different online spots in a way that makes sense and doesn't lock you out of the files.

[LoyceV]

I've forgotten more passwords in my life than I've had houses burn down

I used to think this but I have meet now several people that lost their homes on floods and burnings

I haven't met those people. But I bet you've still met more people who lost their passwords than people who lost their homes. It's just much more likely to happen.

As it stands I can only find a solution on hosting the file somewhere online with very strong encryption similar to bitcoin's level and trust encryption not being broken ~ Perhaps the solution could be in diversifying passwords in different online spots in a way that makes sense and doesn't lock you out of the files.

So how are you going to access those online storages after your house burned down? You'll still need backup passwords somewhere, or you need to remember all online accounts.

[Synchronice]

I can understand that you are only doing this for fun or you are conducting an experiment to see if you will still remember your seed and decryption password in the future. Still, this is a very dangerous method, and it's not recommended to rely solely on your memory like that. Our memory can be unreliable and usually much more with age. Not only do you have to remember your seed but you also have to remember the changes you made to the password. Both are no-goes for a quality long-term backup solution.

No, I have multiple wallets. I seriously take care of my Electrum wallet where I have 12 words seed phrase, I remember 12 words in order and I also repeat them every day. As for now, things are going very well but I said that I don't take seriously my Bitcoin Core wallet's security because I have it for fun, just to run a node.

I used to think this but I have meet now several people that lost their homes on floods and burnings and I realized there should be a plan before that would happen, so I need to think about ways to diversify the wallet file location.

I think, it depends on where you live. If you live in a flat, then you'll definitely have to worry about potential earthquakes and potential of losing your wallet during an earthquake. If you live near the see, you have to worry about potential floods. I can write lots of examples but in the end, I think that everyone's approaches should be individual. I know that where I live, I am almost protected from many things like flood for example, so I don't have to worry about that (I won't go into details for my own privacy).

As it stands I can only find a solution on hosting the file somewhere online with very strong encryption similar to bitcoin's level and trust encryption not being broken, even if I don't like the idea that potentially someone could get ahold of the files, since I would also save passwords, tax related stuff and so on while im at it. Perhaps the solution could be in diversifying passwords in different online spots in a way that makes sense and doesn't lock you out of the files.

I like this idea, I'd do that but many people are very much against that but it's individual after all.

[takuma sato]

I've forgotten more passwords in my life than I've had houses burn down

I used to think this but I have meet now several people that lost their homes on floods and burnings

I haven't met those people. But I bet you've still met more people who lost their passwords than people who lost their homes. It's just much more likely to happen.

As it stands I can only find a solution on hosting the file somewhere online with very strong encryption similar to bitcoin's level and trust encryption not being broken ~ Perhaps the solution could be in diversifying passwords in different online spots in a way that makes sense and doesn't lock you out of the files.

So how are you going to access those online storages after your house burned down? You'll still need backup passwords somewhere, or you need to remember all online accounts.

You can memorize at least one password can't you? Just make it reasonably easy to memorize and strong enough without going crazy on things. You save the passwords there, without any reference as to what these passwords do. So in the very unlikely situation of this cloud storage getting hacked, and then hackers finding the passwords there, all they would have is useless gibberish, at least for anything that couldn't be on a database, like your encrypted wallet password. In another spot, you save the actual files, with the impossible to decrypt password, which is to be stored in another spot that you could access in an emergency as explained. There's always ways to diversify. This would be better than hoping you never have a flood/fire/earthquake/thief/any other physical attack vector that could happen and you would be screwed without no plan B.

[apogio]

Difficult subject to scrutinize, but let's try.

I 'd approach a wallet.dat file, they way I 'd approach an old-fashioned paper-wallet.

General comparison:

	|	Paper-wallet	|	Core wallet
Production system	|	Air-gapped computer	|	Air-gapped computer
Encryption	|	BIP38 with strong encryption password	|	Strong encryption on the wallet.dat file
Wallet Backup	|	At least 2 different pieces of paper, geographically dispersed	|	At least 2 different storage media, geographically dispersed
Extra security	|	(no)	|	Strong encryption of the digital storage itself, with a different password than the wallet's password
Passwords Backup	|	BIP38 password written down at least twice, in geographically dispersed pieces of paper	|	Both passwords written down at least twice, in geographically dispersed pieces of paper

Usage:

I would use both wallets in a similar way. The wallets would be meant for cold storage and I would only monitor them (as watch-only wallets). I wouldn't sign transactions until I needed to move the funds to another wallet. In short, not a daily (or monthly) transaction wallet.

Some more ideas:

(1) For a safer wallet used in daily transactions, I still believe that Core is an excellent wallet, but if I needed a wallet that would be a bit safer, I 'd choose a hardware wallet, or an air-gapped electrum instance, that I 'd easily use with my phone via QR codes.

(2) I am among those who are afraid to store a BIP39 seed phrase as a plain text, because it's obvious that if someone finds it, my money is gone. I am confident enough to think that nobody will find my seed phrase, but as a protection measure, I just create it (offline), encrypt it (offline) and store it offline in various storage media, that won't go online, ever. I just monitor my balances and my UTXOs with a watch-only wallet. My devices, obviously pass occasional health checks.

[Forsyth Jones]

(2) I am among those who are afraid to store a BIP39 seed phrase as a plain text, because it's obvious that if someone finds it, my money is gone. I am confident enough to think that nobody will find my seed phrase, but as a protection measure, I just create it (offline), encrypt it (offline) and store it offline in various storage media, that won't go online, ever. I just monitor my balances and my UTXOs with a watch-only wallet. My devices, obviously pass occasional health checks.

Your backup method is really very good!

I was also afraid that someone might find my BIP-39 mnemonics, until I researched offline solutions to encrypt them, there are actually several ways, including strategies I discussed:

Seed-otp + Checksum Word - Similar to the Seed-XOR method (though if you analyze it carefully, Seed-XOR is actually safer since it generates decoy seeds with valid checksums).

BIP-85: the ultimate guide to protecting your backups

[apogio]

Your backup method is really very good!

I was also afraid that someone might find my BIP-39 mnemonics, until I researched offline solutions to encrypt them, there are actually several ways, including strategies I discussed:

Seed-otp + Checksum Word - Similar to the Seed-XOR method (though if you analyze it carefully, Seed-XOR is actually safer since it generates decoy seeds with valid checksums).

BIP-85: the ultimate guide to protecting your backups

I 'd like to clear out that this is not (necessarily) my backup system. I 've tried multiple systems. I still like mnemonic seed phrases, because they introduce some features that I find important like (a) software agnosticism and plethora, (b) ease of backup, (c) ease of access. But, I can't neglect the fact that Bitcoin Core is indeed a solid, robust software.

[ABCbits]

BIP38 with strong encryption password

Since you mentioned it, i wonder how many software/tool support BIP38 these days? I only can think bitaddress immediately, which haven't updated in very long time.

[apogio]

Since you mentioned it, i wonder how many software/tool support BIP38 these days? I only can think bitaddress immediately, which haven't updated in very long time.

I know that BlueWallet supports reading a BIP38 encrypted private key. You can scan it and it will prompt for a password. I 've tested it some days ago and it's working well. I think Sparrow does that as well.
But for creating a BIP38 key-pair, I am not aware of any other, unfortunately. There are some custom implementations on Github though.

[LoyceV]

It's been years since I tried, but as far as I know Mycelium supports BIP38 too.

[Forsyth Jones]

I know that BlueWallet supports reading a BIP38 encrypted private key. You can scan it and it will prompt for a password. I 've tested it some days ago and it's working well. I think Sparrow does that as well.
But for creating a BIP38 key-pair, I am not aware of any other, unfortunately. There are some custom implementations on Github though.

I agree, Sparrow also supports decryption of a BIP38 key, I tested it recently.

It's been years since I tried, but as far as I know Mycelium supports BIP38 too.

I vaguely remember it too (but I haven't used it for years), and I know that Mycelium also exports an encrypted backup of a private key in PDF with a random code.

[apogio]

It's been years since I tried, but as far as I know Mycelium supports BIP38 too.

I vaguely remember it too (but I haven't used it for years), and I know that Mycelium also exports an encrypted backup of a private key in PDF with a random code.

I 've never used Mycelium, even though Andreas Antonopoulos used to mention it a lot. It must have been a pretty good wallet, but I 've noticed that for iOS, it has a warning.

I want to find a good solution for BIP38 creation. Obviously I want it to be solid and tested. I can download the html page of a paper-wallet generator and use it offline, but I 'd like something else.

[LoyceV]

I want to find a good solution for BIP38 creation. Obviously I want it to be solid and tested. I can download the html page of a paper-wallet generator and use it offline, but I 'd like something else.

What's wrong with using the paper wallet generator (Bitaddress, not the other well known site that produces compromised private keys)? You don't even need to trust it for creating the private key, you can use any private key you want, and encrypt it. Then start from scratch and decrypt it again. If that works, you're good.

[apogio]

What's wrong with using the paper wallet generator (Bitaddress, not the other well known site that produces compromised private keys)? You don't even need to trust it for creating the private key, you can use any private key you want, and encrypt it. Then start from scratch and decrypt it again. If that works, you're good.

Yes, I am using it exactly as you say.

There is nothing wrong with it. My question is because:
(a) I love experimenting with new tools and it's curious that I haven't seen a lot of support for BIP38, because I consider it a good feature.
(b) I have a small urge to attempt to develop one myself, if there is indeed a lack of wallets that support it. (I tried in the past, but failed because I couldn't clearly understand the cryptographic specifications).

[LoyceV]

(a) I love experimenting with new tools and it's curious that I haven't seen a lot of support for BIP38, because I consider it a good feature.

I can think of 2 reasons why it's not more popular: there's no Segwit support for lower fees, and seed phrases are much more convenient than private keys.

[ABCbits]

It's been years since I tried, but as far as I know Mycelium supports BIP38 too.

I vaguely remember it too (but I haven't used it for years), and I know that Mycelium also exports an encrypted backup of a private key in PDF with a random code.

That's good to know. Although it's not exactly straightforward option when you plan to create paper wallet, since you need to generate wallet/import private key, create backup and move backup to computer (which used to create paper wallet).

It's been years since I tried, but as far as I know Mycelium supports BIP38 too.

I vaguely remember it too (but I haven't used it for years), and I know that Mycelium also exports an encrypted backup of a private key in PDF with a random code.

I 've never used Mycelium, even though Andreas Antonopoulos used to mention it a lot. It must have been a pretty good wallet, but I 've noticed that for iOS, it has a warning.

iOS version of their wallet last updated 2 years ago[1]. That may be reason behind warning you see.

[1] https://github.com/mycelium-com/wallet-ios

[takuma sato]

Difficult subject to scrutinize, but let's try.

I 'd approach a wallet.dat file, they way I 'd approach an old-fashioned paper-wallet.

General comparison:

	|	Paper-wallet	|	Core wallet
Production system	|	Air-gapped computer	|	Air-gapped computer
Encryption	|	BIP38 with strong encryption password	|	Strong encryption on the wallet.dat file
Wallet Backup	|	At least 2 different pieces of paper, geographically dispersed	|	At least 2 different storage media, geographically dispersed
Extra security	|	(no)	|	Strong encryption of the digital storage itself, with a different password than the wallet's password
Passwords Backup	|	BIP38 password written down at least twice, in geographically dispersed pieces of paper	|	Both passwords written down at least twice, in geographically dispersed pieces of paper

Usage:

I would use both wallets in a similar way. The wallets would be meant for cold storage and I would only monitor them (as watch-only wallets). I wouldn't sign transactions until I needed to move the funds to another wallet. In short, not a daily (or monthly) transaction wallet.

Some more ideas:

(1) For a safer wallet used in daily transactions, I still believe that Core is an excellent wallet, but if I needed a wallet that would be a bit safer, I 'd choose a hardware wallet, or an air-gapped electrum instance, that I 'd easily use with my phone via QR codes.

(2) I am among those who are afraid to store a BIP39 seed phrase as a plain text, because it's obvious that if someone finds it, my money is gone. I am confident enough to think that nobody will find my seed phrase, but as a protection measure, I just create it (offline), encrypt it (offline) and store it offline in various storage media, that won't go online, ever. I just monitor my balances and my UTXOs with a watch-only wallet. My devices, obviously pass occasional health checks.

I still have not seen a way to geographically distribute copies without adding a lot of risk. I have moved and I don't know anyone I could trust. I would need to hire a vault, in a bank with a decent reputation, or a decent storage company or something, other than that I don't see a way to do it. I could check every X months that the disk is still there. Sometimes I consider if strong encryption in cloud storage hidden somewhere between a bunch of files is safer and more handy thand depending on some physical spot.

And using a phone for payments it's a problem. If you use a phone and lose it and they access the data, they can see that you are a bitcoin user and you are a target now. This could be from a thieft to getting stopped in some airport or border where sometimes they unload all the data of your phone. I don't see a way to easily make payments on the go because all phones are by default compromised.