Spending your BTC will not make you lose money. Laszlo was correct.

[Despairo]

Laszlo was correct, if he didn't make that transaction, Bitcoin might didn't achieve to this stage.

Money must circulate for Bitcoin's "Bullish case" (see also this), otherwise it will be speculative until a likely final crash.

Money circulation isn't only when someone use Bitcoin for paying something, we see people are buy and sell Bitcoin in exchanges, it's already represent of money circulation. I don't know how people trade tulip in the past, but it must not liquid since people trade by P2P and if the place stopped, then it's all ends.

[shield132]

Or that you never should spend your Bitcoin but hodl, because you will lose the big opportunity for a phenomenal value increase of your BTC.

Hodling is never a good idea because if we hodl and do nothing, nothing will be created. I've said many times that money has to be in circulation in order to create something and move things forward, this is what our beloved Lazlo did and I love it. Btw my stance on hodling change a bit recently because governments want to create a Bitcoin strategic reserve and in this case, I vouch for hodling.

But there's a completely trivial method to avoid that: simply re-buy the spent Bitcoins!

That's what I do. I buy Bitcoins to spend Bitcoins. Besides the fact that I hold some Bitcoins and want to profit from them, the price of BTC doesn't matter to me because I use it as a payment method.

[boyptc]

Those people that are kept on saying that it's such a regret, they don't know how impactful that purchase was for the entire Bitcoin community and market.

If laszlo himself isn't even regretting for what he did for the community, these people are just looking at today's value and how much it should cost by now.

It won't even happen with today's pricing if it isn't for him to start with.

They have those regret because they are not on the position of people who use that BTC. And its clear for Laszlo side that he never regret to spend his 10k BTC for Pizza because he's happy at that time when he do that transaction.

Self contentment is important and people have that kind of mindset will always be happy with small things they achieve. Only those greedy people would think that its a waste of opportunity to get rich. If they look at the situation no one knows that BTC would pump like this that's why its better to erase their negative feeling about what happen on the past and proceed on present things which I think more beneficial to them. That situation happen is just part of history and if the person is satisfied  with what he do I guess we don't have right to question him regarding on what happen back then.

Life is tough today and people will always think about the money. But the actual value that laszlo did for all of us, it's already engraved in the history and it will be carry on for the rest of this generation and until this world ends.

We cannot do anything for those people because we understand their point because they only look at the price and how many BTCs were sold for that exchange.

They don't look at the whole value and contribution, a huge one that laszlo did for this great community.

[Marvelockg]

Oh yes, emotions, people are slaves to their own mind and feelings, they always end up marrying to their bag, the feeling of I will never let go is actually holding you down, it is good to hold your BTC, but spending and buying back later will either bring you a lot more SATs than you had before or a bit better. In the end you lose nothing.

everyone has a plan on how he wants to spend or handle his Bitcoin, no matter how bullish you are, the option of selling is always going to be part of your investment plan even though those who see Bitcoin as an asset, might not subscribe to the idea of spending bitcoin for just casual needs considering it worth and the issue of transaction fee.

if I consider Bitcoin an asset I hope to hold for four years based on what I presume I can get at the end of the period, there's nothing that will make me spend it for some short-term needs before that time except I don't have an alternative way of meeting those needs. that is not to say that I don't believe Bitcoin is worth spending when there's a need to. if in the next five years, bitcoin can get to $300k and I have the resources to buy some chunk of it and hold for that period, I don't think there's anything wrong if I choose not to sell till that period.

it is all about having a goal and sticking to it. some people HODL the USD because they speculate it will continue to gain over their declining currency. it does not mean that others won't spend the USD, it is just people believing in the potential of it and keying into such potential for their good. spent BTC does not mean you have lost money but if you are accumulating BTC as an asset, then the way you go about spending it should matter.

[Donneski]

The mistake most of the people who fault Laszlo Hanyecz who using Bitcoin as the monetary value in buying pizza was that they failed to understand the fact that what he did was the primary reason Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin. He had enough Bitcoin to satisfy his cravings and decided to use 10,000 btc which was equivalent to 41 USD as the day of purchase. He was putting to practice what the creator Satoshi Nakamoto narrated in his White Paper that Bitcoin will be used as a peer-to-peer Electronic Cash System .
If you can spend your BTC and still be able to get same amount of BTC for offering your service or in transactional dealings, you aren't losing money but is helping to Bitcoin to achieve it's primary purpose.

[hd49728]

Laszlo was correct, if he didn't make that transaction, Bitcoin might didn't achieve to this stage.

Laszlo is a man in history, a piece of it. If laszlo did not make those pizza - bitcoin transactions, there would be other people did similar transactions. It would have taken more time to have other people doing this if history does not have laszlo.

Like laszlo, I did not regret about bitcoin I spent years ago when it was cheap. Because at least I spent those bitcoins for important things in my life in the past, not for stupid entertaining stuffs. With this purpose of spending, no regret even several years later, Bitcoin price is very higher and more expensive than the past years.

Laszlo Hanyecz is a Bitcoin legend.

[348Judah]

I keep reading posts that @laszlo's pizza transaction was a big mistake. Or that you never should spend your Bitcoin but hodl, because you will lose the big opportunity for a phenomenal value increase of your BTC.

Pizza Day anniversary 15 is coming, so I expect such posts to increase in the next months.

But those people are wrong.

First: Bitcoin was envisioned as a P2P cash by Satoshi. Laszlo's transaction was the start for this then (and still now) utopic dream: a hard, global currency which could be spent everywhere in the world for any good or service, and held with only an Internet access and free wallet tools.

The "digital gold" camp and "łaszlo was wrong!!" camp will say now: if you spend the BTC and then do nothing, then maybe you have lost Bitcoins and potential ROI in the future.

But there's a completely trivial method to avoid that: simply re-buy the spent Bitcoins!

I am much interested about the last part which I quoted from your post and it says, we can spend bitcoin and then later re-buy it, which is the truth about the entire situation, all of us can't be the same holders at the same time, some have to be seeling while some are buying, this is what makes it volatility and at the same time the network market price determination, all working under its demands and supply, so this can't be one sided, as everyone can't just hold, infact, holding it makes the market worse in losing value, but when there is buying and selling, the demand for it will increase as the total supply remains as it is, we should sell high and buy dip, this is best done by speculating on when we should push for the sell or buy order and make profits on our investment.

[Reatim]

if I consider Bitcoin an asset I hope to hold for four years based on what I presume I can get at the end of the period, there's nothing that will make me spend it for some short-term needs before that time except I don't have an alternative way of meeting those needs.

lots of people jump in to invest in bitcoin while not having any real money outside of their investment so they tend to just take out their bitcoin when they are not in a good position it’s unfortunate i know we are all just doing our best but it shows you how difficult it is to maintain an investment without proper money outside of it

it is all about having a goal and sticking to it. some people HODL the USD because they speculate it will continue to gain over their declining currency. it does not mean that others won't spend the USD, it is just people believing in the potential of it and keying into such potential for their good.

yes because these are money we are talking about and we are all going to spend this at some point it’s comparable to saving up fiat the difference is that fiat’s value goes down and bitcoin’s go up

[Zaguru12]

Spending bitcoin isn't wrong but it's not right either. You should prioritise spending the form of money that is more likely to lose value and that si FIAT money. Other than that you can not blame Laszlo in specific because he was a pioneer in making bitcoin popular.

In any case, if your only reliable way of spending money is BTC, might as well spend it with no regrets.

For me the way or method you use to spend bitcoin is actually what guarantees it to be a either a loss or not, Bitcoin on its own is simply money (although one that has value than fiat) and it is an alternative to the traditional fiat currency as such it should be used for payment where it actually eases the hassle of using the fiat. For example cross boarder transactions have been usually hectic using fiat currency because of the change from one fiat currency to another fiat currency but using bitcoin in this regard eases this hassle and most of time reduces the cost of transfer fees related to changing from one currency to another.

Where it is a loss to me is when it is possible to actually use fiat and both will be same hassle free and no extra, I will say go for fiat in this regard to keep your bitcoin because bitcoin has value whereas fiat devalues. Only way again to use bitcoin in place of here fiat is possible is simply just to support the business owner using this method as this helps in bitcoin adoption and propagation

[Ale88]

I keep reading posts that @laszlo's pizza transaction was a big mistake. Or that you never should spend your Bitcoin but hodl, because you will lose the big opportunity for a phenomenal value increase of your BTC.

I'll go straight to the point: all the people who have the guts to criticize what Laszlo did are just plain stupid. First of all he already knew and understood what bitcoin was before the 99.99% of the rest of the world, so kudos to him for being that smart, and the second thing is that he proved for the first time in history that you can actually buy a product using bitcoin, many people don't really understand the real meaning of what he did, they are only able to say "had he kept the bitcoin now he would be bla bla bla". Where were they when Laszlo was able to do that? Did they have any bitcoin? Probably no, ad probably the still don't have a single bitcoin so it would be wise for them to just shut their mouths and show some respect for someone who will always be part of bitcoin's history.

[d5000]

Just to clarify: I'm not against the digital gold concept. I'm only against the conception that Bitcoin should be treated only as an investment now and not as cash. It can and should of course be a store of value too!

Good one, I am glad that finally someone is talking about this because for years now I feel stupid telling people repeatedly that you lose nothing if you sell your Bitcoin and buy back at the right time.

That's not what the thread is about It is about spending Bitcoin to pay for goods or services, not to sell it for fiat. When you re-buy, if instantly or if you try to catch a dip -- there can be different strategies associated with risk.

This is as much bullshit as pretending to create jobs by having people digging ditches and then covering them up to dig them again, etc.

It can be compared if the work of these people has some positive effect, for example strengthening their muscles

I've already written in the OP that the reason to spend Bitcoin and then re-buy is to strengthen the circulation. The main goal is to incentive merchants to accept Bitcoin. AFAIK there has been a bit of a decrease lately of shops who accept Bitcoin or even other cryptocurrencies (in my country there are only few left), and this is not a coincidence as people aren't using this feature that much.

Circulation strenghtens Bitcoin in various ways. If it's widely used for payments it can stop downward volatility a bit, as it increases liquidity. It also can lead to a perception as a unit of account if merchants begin to use Bitcoin prices for some goods. This effect would be at first only temporary - when Bitcoin moves sideways - but then could get stronger over time. And third, the argument of many Bitcoin critics that "it's only used to gamble/speculate" would be refuted, which has also psychological effects and should be great for the price evolution (and thus also for the "digital gold" camp).

I am one of those who thinks bitcoin is digital gold but that doesn't mean I refrain from making any transactions and I don't think Lazlo was wrong by any stretch of the imagination.

I was maybe (on purpose ) a bit too generalistic about the "digital gold camp". There are of course a lot of people like you who like the "store of value" concept but don't disagree with the usefulness as payment means either. But I'm a bit tired of those who think that Bitcoin can now "only" exist as an investment and the cash feature is somewhat outdated.

My personal definition is that Bitcoin has some similarity to gold / silver coins, i.e. it is "hard" but at the same time useful for paying/spending. (Yes, gold/silver coins are currently not used much for that use case, but cash was their original purpose. I know, Gresham's Law is working here, both in the case of Bitcoin and with gold coins. But the possibility to almost instantly re-buy Bitcoins makes it somewhat easier to circumvent Gresham's law in the way I laid out in the OP - in reality, you're spending fiat, but using Bitcoin to make it circulate).

Anything outside the Bitcoin blockchain (wrapped BTC, Lightning Network, intermediaries, etc.) is not Bitcoin - you might as well use PayPal.  

In the fiat world we have also prepaid cards, digital wallets (Paypal!) and similar tools where you temporarily transfer your money to a less-safe platform than your bank account (which could be seen as "pure fiat") and use them for easier, more private, or cheaper payments. Liquid and similar platforms can be compared with that. In the case of LN I disagree because you are dealing with pure Bitcoin UTXOs which are bundled. But I won't deepen this discussion in this thread, there are many LN threads for that.

In addition, the "circulation" effects I mentioned in the answer to Free Market Capitalist also applies in the case of second layers.

Currently, central banks offer cheaper, faster, and more private transactions than Bitcoin, with bank-to-bank fees under $5, depending on the bank, country, etc. but I'm not going to compare all banks here, overall, it's cheaper and faster.

Normally if you're not in an absolute hurry you pay currently less than $1 for a transfer even on Bitcoin mainchain. And international bank transfers are much more expensive, I have to pay 30-35 dollars approximately for such a transfer. You could use PayPal, but again, that is like using Liquid with Bitcoin

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

Just to clarify: I'm not against the digital gold concept. I'm only against the conception that Bitcoin should be treated only as an investment now and not as cash. It can and should of course be a store of value too!

Bitcoin can be used for many things, investment asset, cash, payment method, whatever use cases people can use it.

You can not force other people to agree with you and you can not change others too. They have freedom just like you, and Bitcoin gives all of us freedom to use it or ignore it, and if use it let's use it in a way we like.

No offence here. Please don't misinterpret my post, as I really hope that Bitcoin will be used in many other ways, and will be recognized by people, countries in many different utilities.

[Btcdeybodi]

I have also been having same thought but it just look like when majority is saying same thing and you try to oppose it, it will look as if you have a disease that people are avoiding because they will look at you in a different way.

Bitcoin is digital money, of what use is money without spending it? moreover, the real essence of creating bitcoin was for decentralized transaction and i believe if bitcoin was a stable coin, not many people could have thought of hodling but since it's value tends to increase from time to time, many people now come up with the idea that if they hold for longer time, they gonno make profits from the amount they've hodl and that is practically the reason why we look at it as a store of value instead of for transactional purposes but however, the reason why we are hodling bitcoin is just to own more of it in our possession pending when bitcoin will be fully accepted and adopted globally so that those of us that have hodl for a longer time will be more beneficial that those who will want to acquire it by then so we are still on the right track by hodling it even though hodling wasn't the primary aim of inventing bitcoin. I don't think we should keep emphasizing on why Laszlo used his bitcoins to buy pizza because that singular act was very remarkable towards the growth and awareness of bitcoin and here we are now celebrating bitcoin pizza day annually. May 22 is almost around the corner and we look forward for another pizza day celebration courtesy of Laszlo's 10,000 bitcoin transaction for two pizza.

However, Laszlo's transaction wouldn't have been criticized if he bought back some bitcoins and hodl again, possibly with the view that he could still use it for another transaction in the future but the reality of using 10,000 BTC to purchase two pizza then and considering what that 10,000 BTC is worth in current day is what makes it appear like Laszlo made a huge mistake when he was only being practical on the major reason why bitcoin was invented.

[Nwada001]

Spending bitcoin isn't wrong but it's not right either. You should prioritise spending the form of money that is more likely to lose value and that si FIAT money. Other than that you can not blame Laszlo in specific because he was a pioneer in making bitcoin popular.

In any case, if your only reliable way of spending money is BTC, might as well spend it with no regrets.

Spending is indeed not wrong, but if you are left with the option to choose between spending with Bitcoin and your fiat money, fiat should always be the first to go, as the only value we can talk about in fiat is devaluation, and spending a few Bitcoins from the many that you already have is also not a bad thing, as it contributes to spreading it and using it as a currency rather than just an asset.

[MeGold666]

Normally if you're not in an absolute hurry you pay currently less than $1 for a transfer even on Bitcoin mainchain. And international bank transfers are much more expensive, I have to pay 30-35 dollars approximately for such a transfer. You could use PayPal, but again, that is like using Liquid with Bitcoin

Appreciate your response. I mostly do SEPA transfers, which are practically free (I think it's 1 euro or something like that), and the value must be at least 5 euros if I remember correctly. Depending on the bank, they can be instant or take up to 24 hours - in my bank, it's usually around 4–6 hours.  

For large sums, it doesn't matter - no one cares if a transfer costs $1 or $100 when moving a few million.
But for the average Joe who wants to send, let's say, $1,000 to family in another country, a $100 fee in Bitcoin would be a barrier.

Bitcoin would need to offer something better than "it costs less than $1 when the network is not congested," and we still have to pay trading fees since Bitcoin is not mainstream enough to avoid FIAT. So overall, it's the Bitcoin network fee plus whatever fee your trading platform charges for exchange.  

Ideally, everyone would use Bitcoin, eliminating the need to trade back to FIAT, but then network fees would skyrocket to $100+ per transaction. Even then, it would take a long time for your transaction to be included in a block due to the long queue in the mempool.  

I like the visual representation of this line:

https://txcity.io/v/xmr-btc

Anything outside the Bitcoin blockchain (wrapped BTC, Lightning Network, intermediaries, etc.) is not Bitcoin - you might as well use PayPal.  

In the fiat world we have also prepaid cards, digital wallets (Paypal!) and similar tools where you temporarily transfer your money to a less-safe platform than your bank account (which could be seen as "pure fiat") and use them for easier, more private, or cheaper payments. Liquid and similar platforms can be compared with that. In the case of LN I disagree because you are dealing with pure Bitcoin UTXOs which are bundled. But I won't deepen this discussion in this thread, there are many LN threads for that.

I disagree. Using LN is not using Bitcoin, and during L1 congestion, it doesn't even work, as we've seen in the past.  

LN is a dead-end project anyway. Its centralized nature - I’m sure you know what I mean - makes its existence unnecessary and serves more as a marketing tool for Bitcoin rather than a real solution. As I said, you might as well use PayPal.

Bitcoin can't support any L2 solution on a large scale because it stands on very skinny legs with its non-scalable, tiny blocks.

[Synchronice]

I keep reading posts that @laszlo's pizza transaction was a big mistake. Or that you never should spend your Bitcoin but hodl, because you will lose the big opportunity for a phenomenal value increase of your BTC.

My first thread on Bitcointalk was about Laszlo's mistake. It was not a mistake. Those, who say that it was a mistake, will not be remembered but Laszlo's name is written in history that us and our kids will remember and talk about.

First: Bitcoin was envisioned as a P2P cash by Satoshi. Laszlo's transaction was the start for this then (and still now) utopic dream: a hard, global currency which could be spent everywhere in the world for any good or service, and held with only an Internet access and free wallet tools.

That's true and too many people forget that. Bitcoin was created to solve certain problems and Laszo made a demonstration of that.

Bitcoin Pizza purchase, which many are describing as a costly mistake; if that deal was never carried out, I don't think we could be where we are today, or if everyone is holding onto what they have as bitcoin, how can value be attached to it? If we don't sell, it remains stable in one place, and the envisioned idea of P2P by Satoshi won't have come to light.

If Bitcoin was worthless today, the pizza seller could have been added in the wrong size of the history book.

It's pointless to think about that transaction. I mean, in the end, Laszo paid a few dollars from his pocket, not a billion dollar, which it now worth. Laszo could take $50 and buy Bitcoins again after that transaction. Someone has to buy and sell Bitcoins, someone has to send and receive Bitcoin transactions.

A false narrative was formed over the years due to ever increasing bitcoin price that says "bitcoin is an investment" that is supposed to make you rich quickly! and that is the reason why people who follow this false narrative think if someone spends their coins, they'd make a mistake.

But bitcoin is money and because of that it is both a store of value like gold and medium of exchange like currencies (eg fiat). So it has to be used like both not just one. Not to mention that if someone spends something like 10 bucks worth of their bitcoins, that doesn't mean they've spent all their coins! It usually is only a small fraction of what they have. And that is not a mistake. It is a good thing actually, as OP points out.

Well, Bitcoin is really an investment and it's not a false that many people think it's a way to quickly become a rich. I think that no one will become rich quickly today because the market cap is very high but in yearly years, it had the capability to make someone rich quickly because in 2014, buying Bitcoins (which has a limited supply) really was an investment in the future and every amazing innovation makes investors rich quickly. But today people don't care about Bitcoin as an actual currency and slowly it's becoming a store of value and not a currency.

[OgNasty]

A lot of people still don't understand spending Bitcoin and what it actually means.  Everyone has value, whether it be dollars, Bitcoin, gold, whatever.  If you choose to spend some of that value, you can either rebalance your portfolio or not.  Too many people think that if you spend Bitcoin it is gone forever.  In reality, you could view every dollar you spend as a missed opportunity to own more Bitcoin, so it spending dollars really any different than spending Bitcoin?  In the end, it isn't the spending of Bitcoin that is bad and causes you to miss out on future appreciation, it is the failure to actively manage your personal portfolio of value.

[d5000]

Bitcoin can be used for many things, investment asset, cash, payment method, whatever use cases people can use it.

Mmh, you seemed to have misundestood something, because that's exactly what I wrote. Again: The thread is directed to / trying to educate (see below) those who think that the "cash/currency" aspect of Bitcoin is outdated or flawed.

You can not force other people to agree with you and you can not change others too.

Correct, but sometimes there are simple misunderstandings that can be "corrected" by providing a little bit of context. That's, in my opinion (like everything here), the case with the conception that Laszlo shouldn't have bought the pizzas and instead held the 10.000 BTC, and that nobody should spend their Bitcoins but hodl. The benefits of "circulating" Bitcoins are not that trivial to understand in comparison to the benefits of hodling and get rich.

I mostly do SEPA transfers, which are practically free (I think it's 1 euro or something like that),

SEPA is indeed free on many banks, but it's a domestic type of transfer as the European SEPA area works like the banking system of a single country. I was talking mainly about SWIFT transfers. On some continents you even have to use this expensive system with your neighbor states.

Bitcoin can't support any L2 solution on a large scale because it stands on very skinny legs with its non-scalable, tiny blocks.

Regarding second layers my understanding, after having checked several projects (some of them are scams, of course, but some are interesting) Bitcoin already offers some options, although the situation is not ideal still. We simply disagree regarding LN, and I've already written that this is OT here. It can be discussed in depth but with fundamented arguments elsewhere

But serious question: Are you considering "upcoming" technologies like BitVM and Ark? Many of these solutions depend on, or are drastically "facilitated" by covenants which is actually one of the hottest topics among the Bitcoin devs, and once it is implemented, then the L2 situation could drastically improve on Bitcoin.

Monero could also be a good "prepaid card" replacement, but be aware that it also has bandwidth limits. If Monero was the only "payment coin" and its block sizes would explode, even if it has a dynamic block size, it would lose decentralization. I would love XMR to be used much more though, and it still seems to have leeway.

[..]it isn't the spending of Bitcoin that is bad and causes you to miss out on future appreciation, it is the failure to actively manage your personal portfolio of value.

Good take on the subject.

[uchegod-21]

A lot of people still don't understand spending Bitcoin and what it actually means.  Everyone has value, whether it be dollars, Bitcoin, gold, whatever.  If you choose to spend some of that value, you can either rebalance your portfolio or not.  Too many people think that if you spend Bitcoin it is gone forever.  In reality, you could view every dollar you spend as a missed opportunity to own more Bitcoin, so it spending dollars really any different than spending Bitcoin?  In the end, it isn't the spending of Bitcoin that is bad and causes you to miss out on future appreciation, it is the failure to actively manage your personal portfolio of value.

In the end, spending is what is the problem, be it dollar or bitcoin. Concerning what OP wrote about, this clarion call would have been sounding since. When I was new in the forum, I became confused because a hodler is being praised in the forum and in the same time, anyone who purchases with bitcoin will also be praised. It seems we don't know what we want for BTC.

Coming from the reality angle, with the extent of global adoption, everyone is reluctant of spending bitcoin. Besides, what is keeping most of us in bitcoin is the price increment and not other benefits.

[avp2306]

Spending bitcoin isn't wrong but it's not right either. You should prioritise spending the form of money that is more likely to lose value and that si FIAT money. Other than that you can not blame Laszlo in specific because he was a pioneer in making bitcoin popular.

In any case, if your only reliable way of spending money is BTC, might as well spend it with no regrets.

Spending is indeed not wrong, but if you are left with the option to choose between spending with Bitcoin and your fiat money, fiat should always be the first to go, as the only value we can talk about in fiat is devaluation, and spending a few Bitcoins from the many that you already have is also not a bad thing, as it contributes to spreading it and using it as a currency rather than just an asset.

Its the same way how you circulate your fiat and Lazslo did is just making healthy circulation of Bitcoin. He used to buy some product that he want then get happy with it. That historical transaction create a noise and somehow that contribute that Bitcoin became famous at that time, it give idea to people that they can use it to buy foods and other stuffs they need.

People are just amazed with the value it possibly generated, but people should not look at that situation because spending Bitcoin would never be a bad option before as long as you get what you desired to happen. Better for people to focus on present happenings and move on in the past since if they want to HODL now they better start buying Bitcoin now and save it for future used.