Spending your BTC will not make you lose money. Laszlo was correct.

[d5000]

I keep reading posts that @laszlo's pizza transaction was a big mistake. Or that you never should spend your Bitcoin but hodl, because you will lose the big opportunity for a phenomenal value increase of your BTC.

Pizza Day anniversary 15 is coming, so I expect such posts to increase in the next months.

But those people are wrong.

First: Bitcoin was envisioned as a P2P cash by Satoshi. Laszlo's transaction was the start for this then (and still now) utopic dream: a hard, global currency which could be spent everywhere in the world for any good or service, and held with only an Internet access and free wallet tools.

The "digital gold" camp and "łaszlo was wrong!!" camp will say now: if you spend the BTC and then do nothing, then maybe you have lost Bitcoins and potential ROI in the future.

But there's a completely trivial method to avoid that: simply re-buy the spent Bitcoins!

In this way, you don't lose any of your BTC, but you help the Bitcoin merchant network to grow, and bring us close to this utopian dream. And I'm also quite sure that Bitcoin's value would be strengthened. After laszlo bought the pizza, Bitcoin was finally also getting a monetary value, and this value went only up from then on.

Corollary: Buy or pay for products and services you really need.


Slightly less trivial argument against "Bitcoin as cash": Well, but what about the fees? First, sometimes I would have to spend $10 or more on fees to spend my BTC. And second, if everybody was now spending their BTC then fees would skyrocket to $100 or more and make Bitcoin unusable!

Answer: This topic is still a challenge, but nothing to not being solved.

- First you can use Bitcoin for relatively high value purchases only ($100-500+ depending on fee situation).
- You also can create a Lightning channel and refill it periodically.
- And there are also other second layers and altcoins you could use as a "prepaid card" in a very similar manner. BitVM is a very promising project for sidechains.
- You could even spend your wBTC if you have some and are tired of dubious DeFi "projects" - and buy "real" BTC instead!
- And if you don't care about centralization, use Liquid, RSK or a similar centralized sidechain with small to mid sized amounts - it will also help Bitcoin!

Money must circulate for Bitcoin's "Bullish case" (see also this), otherwise it will be speculative until a likely final crash.


(Please don't derail: this is not a thread about LN!)

[Hazink]

The idea not to ever sell your bitcoin is unscrupulous; it lacks the ethics of what bitcoin stands for. If you don't sell your bitcoin, how can it serve its purpose, and what's the use and value for what's not supposed to be solved?

Bitcoin Pizza purchase, which many are describing as a costly mistake; if that deal was never carried out, I don't think we could be where we are today, or if everyone is holding onto what they have as bitcoin, how can value be attached to it? If we don't sell, it remains stable in one place, and the envisioned idea of P2P by Satoshi won't have come to light.

If Bitcoin was worthless today, the pizza seller could have been added in the wrong size of the history book.

[pooya87]

A false narrative was formed over the years due to ever increasing bitcoin price that says "bitcoin is an investment" that is supposed to make you rich quickly! and that is the reason why people who follow this false narrative think if someone spends their coins, they'd make a mistake.

But bitcoin is money and because of that it is both a store of value like gold and medium of exchange like currencies (eg fiat). So it has to be used like both not just one. Not to mention that if someone spends something like 10 bucks worth of their bitcoins, that doesn't mean they've spent all their coins! It usually is only a small fraction of what they have. And that is not a mistake. It is a good thing actually, as OP points out.

[Ambatman]

The idea not to ever sell your bitcoin is unscrupulous; it lacks the ethics of what bitcoin stands for. If you don't sell your bitcoin, how can it serve its purpose, and what's the use and value for what's not supposed to be solved?

is not selling Bitcoin
He isn't talking about trading.
He means using it for a transaction
Whether for goods or service.
 
Well with it's quick rise in value many forgot Bitcoin is also digital money.
Many would rather use fiat than Bitcoin
Because it's perceived more valuable (which honestly is true).
Is easier to get access to Fiat than Bitcoin.

I prefer using Bitcoin while getting things across border (currency barrier)
And our local banks tend to block/restrict certain accounts trying to make a relatively bigger transaction
So Bitcoin comes in play.

[Cryptohygenic]

Bitcoin can be owned as money and be utilized and for transactions of payments alternatively as the fiats, there then, spending it as it is is not a lost because money spent intentionally is not a lost unless it was spent on the basis that is not worth spending which is also how we will after spending our money.
Other hand, bitcoin can be owned as assets for a future or short term goal of making interests which alternatively as a case of monetizing to change individual, institutions or even a division/national/global economy system but buying and hodling which is still centered on making profits to solve our financial needs and also potential to provide increase to users portfolios.
The point of time to spend bitcoin on a lost is the point of selling at lost but however it maybe twisted, bitcoin is still have to be spent because it is valuable not just about holding. Perhaps it is no a useless commodity to say we don't have to spend it.

[KiaKia]

Good one, I am glad that finally someone is talking about this because for years now I feel stupid telling people repeatedly that you lose nothing if you sell your Bitcoin and buy back at the right time.

In fact, this will increase the numbers of your Bitcoin if dome right, all you have to do is learn the best buying and selling time, for example, spend your Bitcoin on your needs now, it is a good time if you Boughy the Bitcoin at 15,000 years ago, and just wait till 2026 bear market and buy back, how hard can this be?

Oh yes, emotions, people are slaves to their own mind and feelings, they always end up marrying to their bag, the feeling of I will never let go is actually holding you down, it is good to hold your BTC, but spending and buying back later will either bring you a lot more SATs than you had before or a bit better. In the end you lose nothing.

[alani123]

Laszlo was a pioneer and he lives more care free than we all do. See to one of his interviews and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Spending bitcoin isn't wrong but it's not right either. You should prioritise spending the form of money that is more likely to lose value and that si FIAT money. Other than that you can not blame Laszlo in specific because he was a pioneer in making bitcoin popular.

In any case, if your only reliable way of spending money is BTC, might as well spend it with no regrets.

[MeGold666]

They (banksters) have successfully made Bitcoin unusable, I'm talking about an outdated protocol and exploiting people's mentality for greed.

I'm not surprised - they have a lot of experience and plenty of money to control the general public.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eafzIW52Rgc&t=1049s

Slightly less trivial argument against "Bitcoin as cash": Well, but what about the fees? First, sometimes I would have to spend $10 or more on fees to spend my BTC. And second, if everybody was now spending their BTC then fees would skyrocket to $100 or more and make Bitcoin unusable!

Answer: This topic is still a challenge, but nothing to not being solved.

- First you can use Bitcoin for relatively high value purchases only ($100-500+ depending on fee situation).
- You also can create a Lightning channel and refill it periodically.
- And there are also other second layers and altcoins you could use as a "prepaid card" in a very similar manner. BitVM is a very promising project for sidechains.
- You could even spend your wBTC if you have some and are tired of dubious DeFi "projects" - and buy "real" BTC instead!
- And if you don't care about centralization, use Liquid, RSK or a similar centralized sidechain with small to mid sized amounts - it will also help Bitcoin!

Anything outside the Bitcoin blockchain (wrapped BTC, Lightning Network, intermediaries, etc.) is not Bitcoin - you might as well use PayPal.  
Just selling isn't enough. Bitcoin isn't starving from a lack of trading - it trades a lot, what it lacks is real-world usage.

I'll tell you this: if I were buying a car, I sure as hell wouldn't pay an extra $100 fee when there are much cheaper options available.
Currently, central banks offer cheaper, faster, and more private transactions than Bitcoin, with bank-to-bank fees under $5, depending on the bank, country, etc. but I'm not going to compare all banks here, overall, it's cheaper and faster.
People mostly care about speed and fees, privacy comes later, and even later is the freedom to control it (being your own bank).

For Bitcoin to be usable, fees must drop drastically, and the only way to achieve that is by increasing block size - ideally with adaptive blocks like Monero.
But we know how that would go: another split. And why even update Bitcoin to improve it when there are already other forks with bigger blocks? That's a dead end.

At this point, we can only assume that Bitcoin is just another investment stock - a decentralized one - but who cares? It doesn't change our lives the way we wanted.
All in all, Bitcoin is just another brick in a wall of other stocks.

[Free Market Capitalist]

The "digital gold" camp and "łaszlo was wrong!!" camp will say now: if you spend the BTC and then do nothing, then maybe you have lost Bitcoins and potential ROI in the future.

But there's a completely trivial method to avoid that: simply re-buy the spent Bitcoins!

This is as much bullshit as pretending to create jobs by having people digging ditches and then covering them up to dig them again, etc. What you are doing is taking a false premise and drawing whatever conclusion you want. I am one of those who thinks bitcoin is digital gold but that doesn't mean I refrain from making any transactions and I don't think Lazlo was wrong by any stretch of the imagination.

[MeGold666]

I am one of those who thinks bitcoin is digital gold but that doesn't mean I refrain from making any transactions and I don't think Lazlo was wrong by any stretch of the imagination.

The false narrative of 'Digital Gold' is what made Bitcoin unusable. Mind you, it is far from digital gold due to its lack of fungibility.

It's more like 'Digital Real Estate' right now if you really want to make an analogy, especially with it's increasing centralization of hashrate.

If you're one of those people who still believe Bitcoin is fungible, then I dare you to trade all your bitcoins on a DNM for ones that came from a major theft.

You won't do it because it's not fungible. By any stretch of the imagination.

And so, it's not digital gold, never was.

[Free Market Capitalist]

The false narrative of 'Digital Gold' is what made Bitcoin unusable.

Unusable? I use it often.

Mind you, it is far from digital gold due to its lack of fungibility.

Do you even know what fungibility means?

It's more like 'Digital Real Estate' right now if you really want to make an analogy, especially with it's increasing centralization of hashrate.

Or digital capital, so what?

If you're one of those people who still believe Bitcoin is fungible, then I dare you to trade all your Bitcoin on a DNM for ones that came from a major theft.

You won't do it because it's not fungible. By any stretch of the imagination.

Try the same with gold you smarty pants.

[boyptc]

Those people that are kept on saying that it's such a regret, they don't know how impactful that purchase was for the entire Bitcoin community and market.

If laszlo himself isn't even regretting for what he did for the community, these people are just looking at today's value and how much it should cost by now.

It won't even happen with today's pricing if it isn't for him to start with.

[MeGold666]

Unusable? I use it often.

Proofs or didn't happen. Still, not many people use it in real world.

Do you even know what fungibility means?

Do you even read what you link ?

"Fungibility is the property of an asset where each unit is interchangeable and identical in value with every other unit. For example, one $10 bill is considered equivalent to another $10 bill, making money fungible."

Bitcoins that are tainted due to coming from large theft, are not the same value - I ask again, would you exchange your bitcoins to one that came from theft ?

It's more like 'Digital Real Estate' right now if you really want to make an analogy, especially with it's increasing centralization of hashrate.

Or digital capital, so what?

Well, there is a big difference. Digital Gold assumes the digital asset is fungible, as this is one of the main properties of physical gold.

If you're one of those people who still believe Bitcoin is fungible, then I dare you to trade all your Bitcoin on a DNM for ones that came from a major theft.

You won't do it because it's not fungible. By any stretch of the imagination.

Try the same with gold you smarty pants.

I would have no trouble trading my gold for the kind that came from theft and then selling it, because it's fungible.

[justinlamode]

If Bitcoin is not spent, the essence of creating it will be defeated. Bitcoin was created to be internet money which should be spent just like we spend the fiat to pay for goods and services. Laszlo is a heroic example of a man who kept to the requirement of Bitcoin and will forever be remembered for his contribution to Bitcoin. If we can think more towards that direction, which is using Bitcoin for payment, I'm sure more people will hear about Bitcoin and might even add same to their business than we already have.

It breaks my heart seeing that we have narrowed Bitcoin to buy and HODL. This is just one part of it, we will even be helping the Bitcoin network more if there continue to be transaction in the Bitcoin network rather than storing our Bitcoin in isolated wallets.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Unusable? I use it often.

Proofs or didn't happen. Still, not many people use it in real world.

Yeah man, now I'm going to start posting evidence of something that is obvious so that some dummy on an anonymous internet forum will be happy. Do you use your gold often to pay for your goods and services?

Do you read what you link ?

"Fungibility is the property of an asset where each unit is interchangeable and identical in value with every other unit. For example, one $10 bill is considered equivalent to another $10 bill, making money fungible."

Yes, do you even understand what you read?

Bitcoins that are tainted due to coming from large theft, are not the same value - I ask again, would you exchange your bitcoins to one that came from theft ?

No, the same way that I wouldn't exchange my banknotes for others than came from theft and I wouldn't in the case of gold either.

I would have no trouble trading my gold for the kind that came from theft and then selling it, because it's fungible.

You would have no problem if you exchange it P2P and/or low amounts, just as you would have no problem exchanging bitcoin P2P and/or low amounts. Try to go to a store to exchange your gold bars with serial number and in large quantities and then come back and tell me that stolen gold bars are fungible.

Do you even use bitcoin? I have used bitcoin that has gone through casinos and mixers and have had no problems trading/spending them.

[Amphenomenon]

The "digital gold" camp and "łaszlo was wrong!!" camp will say now: if you spend the BTC and then do nothing, then maybe you have lost Bitcoins and potential ROI in the future.

But there's a completely trivial method to avoid that: simply re-buy the spent Bitcoins!

This is as much bullshit as pretending to create jobs by having people digging ditches and then covering them up to dig them again, etc. What you are doing is taking a false premise and drawing whatever conclusion you want. I am one of those who thinks bitcoin is digital gold but that doesn't mean I refrain from making any transactions and I don't think Lazlo was wrong by any stretch of the imagination.

I take Bitcoin as a digital gold also, but that's not the only view I have for it, I can't ignore the fact that's a means of payment and that's why I'm often pissed when others might not see anything wrong during the hike of tx fee, as long as the monetary value of bitcoin just keep raising, that's they don't really care much about bitcoin scalability issue as long as the price is still increasing.

Although since I know bitcoin is better than every currency in returns, that's as an hedge against inflation, I would want to spend other currencies notably fiat before using it except it's better to use it at time or I have fewer to no options, and like you said we could simply still rebuy, which doesn't have to be an immediate move.

[MeGold666]

Do you read what you link ?

"Fungibility is the property of an asset where each unit is interchangeable and identical in value with every other unit. For example, one $10 bill is considered equivalent to another $10 bill, making money fungible."

Yes, do you even understand what you read?

Tell me where I'm wrong, you are making circles.

Bitcoins that are tainted due to coming from large theft, are not the same value - I ask again, would you exchange your bitcoins to one that came from theft ?

No, the same way that I wouldn't exchange my banknotes for others than came from theft and I wouldn't in the case of gold either.

So you agree your bitcoins are not the same as the one that came from theft - so bitcoins are not fungible.
Banknotes aren't fungible - they each have a unique serial number. Gold, however, is fungible.

Try to go to a store to exchange your gold bars with serial number and in large quantities and then come back and tell me that stolen gold bars are fungible.

So you're saying gold isn't fungible? Do you realize you can melt gold? And THIS guy is sending me links to explain fungibility...  

Sorry, but I don't have time for this low-level discussion that goes in circles because you can't acknowledge basic facts.

/Over&Out.

[Taskford]

Those people that are kept on saying that it's such a regret, they don't know how impactful that purchase was for the entire Bitcoin community and market.

If laszlo himself isn't even regretting for what he did for the community, these people are just looking at today's value and how much it should cost by now.

It won't even happen with today's pricing if it isn't for him to start with.

They have those regret because they are not on the position of people who use that BTC. And its clear for Laszlo side that he never regret to spend his 10k BTC for Pizza because he's happy at that time when he do that transaction.

Self contentment is important and people have that kind of mindset will always be happy with small things they achieve. Only those greedy people would think that its a waste of opportunity to get rich. If they look at the situation no one knows that BTC would pump like this that's why its better to erase their negative feeling about what happen on the past and proceed on present things which I think more beneficial to them. That situation happen is just part of history and if the person is satisfied  with what he do I guess we don't have right to question him regarding on what happen back then.

[Zlantann]

A false narrative was formed over the years due to ever increasing bitcoin price that says "bitcoin is an investment" that is supposed to make you rich quickly! and that is the reason why people who follow this false narrative think if someone spends their coins, they'd make a mistake.

But bitcoin is money and because of that it is both a store of value like gold and medium of exchange like currencies (eg fiat). So it has to be used like both not just one. Not to mention that if someone spends something like 10 bucks worth of their bitcoins, that doesn't mean they've spent all their coins! It usually is only a small fraction of what they have. And that is not a mistake. It is a good thing actually, as OP points out.

Introducing people to Bitcoin as a a get rich quick investment is not the right thing to do because it is not. But from the historical figures of the price of Bitcoin it is a good investment. So many investors will like to buy and hold it so that they can make profit.

But Bitcoin is still been used as a currency. There has been news of nations bypassing sanctions using Bitcoin to settle international trade financial obligations. Big companies in these sanctioned nations are also turning to crypto for import payments. When my country placed restrictions on banking transactions, some individuals also turned to Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is playing its role as a currency and an investment, so I think people are free to use it as they want.

[topbitcoin]

Being in bitcoin whether it is used as one of the sources for payment or making this an investment in fact does not mean keeping your bitcoin forever. Obviously holding without releasing is also not the right thing and seems wrong in this case but in other conditions we also do not mean that we will spend massively in the form of bitcoin which makes this uncontrollable in the end.

The reason @laszlo exchanged his bitcoin for pizza was not a mistake because at that time it was worth it to do so there was no such thing as a mistake because previously this was comparable (in that year) even though for the current year it is clearly not comparable and even very far from comparable.

But in this case we realize that spending or using our bitcoin as long as the purpose is clear and considered worth it then why not. We cannot judge or judge others to be wrong just for spending their bitcoin or making views that differ from our beliefs.