What if the Internet shuts down? !!

[Danydee]

 
 One known cataclysm that could make the whole interruption of all the telecommunications but also every electricity network is a Major big Solar storm that hits the earth!

 But what about Bitcoin..? In such case the bitcoin network would be paused, not all at once., some nodes before others.. Gradually, following the interruption areas of the internet!
 However, after all is reestablished, the normal life resumes and Bitcoin actors want to relaunch the Bitcoin network..  So first: not everybody have the same copy of the blockchain as some nodes continued recording after the others got interrupted !  And what if some entities wanted to fool the word creating completely artificial blocks and adding them to the blockchain ?  How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??


 So what of a code would be part of Bitcoin protocol and that would depend on that the network is running that could sign blindly the blocks.. (Putting like a seal on them), include in the blocks a cryptographic signature that works like authentication signature ?

[Danydee]

reserved

[Findingnemo]

The node with the longest chain will be considered valid in case of such events so any node that doesn't follow it's signature will be rejected by the network. And how it is determined not involved in any dubious activity is exists within the network, the hash of the previous block will be present in the upcoming block making the connectivity unbreakable and tamper-proof.

Anyway, let's wait for the experts to comment on this.

[Mrbluntzy]

Such shutdown will never be possible, you know why? It will not happen because every sector needs the internet and the electricity. What can possibly happen is the increase in electricity bill which will be an increased cost for miners. Can the whole world go one day without telecommunications and power supply, it's not possible and would not only affect Bitcoin if by chance such thing happen.

[FatFork]

So what of a code would be part of Bitcoin protocol and that would depend on that the network is running that could sign blindly the blocks.. (Putting like a seal on them), include in the blocks a cryptographic signature that works like authentication signature ?

Your idea of a built-in signature is basically what blockchain cryptography already tries to do. It doesn't magically solve the problem of a complete network shutdown and potential malicious actors afterward. You'd still need a way to pick the "good" chain after the chaos.

[Cricktor]

The node with the longest chain will be considered valid in case of such events so any node that doesn't follow it's signature will be rejected by the network.

No, not the longest chain is taken as the one to follow as valid but the chain with the most accumulated chainwork. It is an important difference!

If all miners were honest (remember that we don't need to trust them to be honest), then the longer chain will be the one with the most chainwork. But again, length is not necessarily the main criteria to choose the valid chain to follow.

You could've a longer chain with less chainwork compared to a shorter one that accumulates more chainwork. All nodes will follow the (shorter) chain with more chainwork.

[Ambatman]

However, after all is reestablished, the normal life resumes and Bitcoin actors want to relaunch the Bitcoin network..  So first: not everybody have the same copy of the blockchain as some nodes continued recording after the others got interrupted !  And what if some entities wanted to fool the word creating completely artificial blocks and adding them to the blockchain ?  How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??

It would be too expensive to maintain and implement because of difficulty adjustment
Especially if the black out doesn't last long.
And even if they are able to bypass the difficulty adjustment
Once everything is back online
Offline nodes would sync to the last honest blocks
And as more comes the POW gets higher than the fake block mined.
Most POW wins not first come first served.

Such shutdown will never be possible,

That's what the dinosaurs said
The thing is anything can happen. There are lots of things in the universe we still don't know.
 

[mcdouglasx]

In a scenario of such magnitude, there should be a "day zero," meaning that regardless of whether half the planet remains without power, Bitcoin should cease to be used, and when it is restored, it should compensate from that point of failure. This way, you avoid 51% attacks or blocks mined at a low difficulty, which would be disastrous—like accidentally putting a product on sale at a low price in a supermarket.

The idea would be that periodically, the Bitcoin network would "mark" a block as a secure reference point. This marked block would act as a global consensus on the state of the chain at that moment. In the event of a catastrophic event (such as a massive blackout or a 51% attack), the network could restart from the last marked block, thus avoiding issues like chain reorganization or mining at an incorrect difficulty.

[Danydee]

Your idea of a built-in signature is basically what blockchain cryptography already tries to do. It doesn't magically solve the problem of a complete network shutdown and potential malicious actors afterward. You'd still need a way to pick the "good" chain after the chaos.

I don't code, but I don't see it too hard.. The idea is of private (Keys)/ID wich would be built "blindly" inside the Bitcoin protocol (that nobody will know/have access to (blind signing)), and that will depend on many factors of the correct running of the network to appose a seal/Auth. signature over the blocks .. At least will have the blocks (signed), and may btw the way wright some records of activity and so that could help in a case of a reconstruction !

[ABCbits]

One known cataclysm that could make the whole interruption of all the telecommunications but also every electricity network is a Major big Solar storm that hits the earth!

According to Google, cable on sea are mostly safe from big solar storm[1].

And what if some entities wanted to fool the word creating completely artificial blocks and adding them to the blockchain ?  How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??

That entity still have to produce valid block. It means attack they could do is limited[2] (e.g. creating empty block), while requiring lots of ASIC due to high difficulty.

How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??

Trust? Full node software automatically verify whether the block is valid or not. And as stated by other member, node eventually will choose chain with most work after telecommunication problem is solved.

So what of a code would be part of Bitcoin protocol and that would depend on that the network is running that could sign blindly the blocks.. (Putting like a seal on them), include in the blocks a cryptographic signature that works like authentication signature ?

Authentication signature? There's no such thing on Bitcoin protocol.

[1] https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/infrastructure/are-internet-subsea-cables-susceptible-to-solar-storms
[2] https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/662

[Synchronice]

 One known cataclysm that could make the whole interruption of all the telecommunications but also every electricity network is a Major big Solar storm that hits the earth!

 But what about Bitcoin..? In such case the bitcoin network would be paused, not all at once., some nodes before others.. Gradually, following the interruption areas of the internet!
 However, after all is reestablished, the normal life resumes and Bitcoin actors want to relaunch the Bitcoin network..  So first: not everybody have the same copy of the blockchain as some nodes continued recording after the others got interrupted !  And what if some entities wanted to fool the word creating completely artificial blocks and adding them to the blockchain ?  How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??


 So what of a code would be part of Bitcoin protocol and that would depend on that the network is running that could sign blindly the blocks.. (Putting like a seal on them), include in the blocks a cryptographic signature that works like authentication signature ?

I think it would be good if you start it by explaining what damages can Solar Storm cause to earth in more details but let's take significant solar events as an example. As far as I know, even in the events of significant solar storms, the whole world won't lose the electricity and internet fiber optics will be safe (correct me if I'm wrong). So, since Bitcoin is decentralized, it will survive because some countries will have electricity and they'll be able to keep Bitcoin nodes and miners running. Many people all over the world have solar panels, they'll also be able to run Bitcoin nodes but I think that trading will take a huge hit because these platforms might close for a while and price might significantly crash.

By the way, I'm sure that Bitcoin itself is safe. Even if someone tries to use the advantage of the situation and fork Bitcoin, it will still be safe because every bad action can be reversed once the whole world will return back to normal life.

[DaveF]

One thing to keep in mind that if such a thing happened, BTC (and just about everything else) would be worthless.

Everything is so interconnected and needing of the internet that without it there would be such a fundamental change in the way the world operates that things like BTC would not matter.

With that being said take a look at:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/169nmlr/the_1st_user_to_propose_to_send_bitcoin/
and
https://prepperpress.com/how-to-send-bitcoin-over-ham-radio/

But at least we could live in The Vaults

https://www.gamesradar.com/fallout-season-2-release-date-cast-prime-video/


-Dave

[philipma1957]

One thing to keep in mind that if such a thing happened, BTC (and just about everything else) would be worthless.

Everything is so interconnected and needing of the internet that without it there would be such a fundamental change in the way the world operates that things like BTC would not matter.

With that being said take a look at:
https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/169nmlr/the_1st_user_to_propose_to_send_bitcoin/
and
https://prepperpress.com/how-to-send-bitcoin-over-ham-radio/

But at least we could live in The Vaults

https://www.gamesradar.com/fallout-season-2-release-date-cast-prime-video/


-Dave

No internet in the 60s and We sent a man to the moon.

🌖

The biggest issue would be feeding people. as we had less than  3 billion in 1969 and more than 8 billion in 2025

[DaveF]

No internet in the 60s and We sent a man to the moon.

🌖

The biggest issue would be feeding people. as we had less than  3 billion in 1969 and more than 8 billion in 2025

There were systems in place back then that did not rely on the internet.
Back then banks spoke though their own internal systems and such. Today they all talk through the net.

Same with phones. 95%+ of all telecommunications at some point or another cross the public net. If all of a sudden the internet and phones and banks stopped that means just about everything else did too.

So worrying about BTC at that point, nope would not matter.

-Dave

[Danydee]

One known cataclysm that could make the whole interruption of all the telecommunications but also every electricity network is a Major big Solar storm that hits the earth!

According to Google, cable on sea are mostly safe from big solar storm[1].

I think it would be good if you start it by explaining what damages can Solar Storm cause to earth in more details but let's take significant solar events as an example. As far as I know, even in the events of significant solar storms, the whole world won't lose the electricity and internet fiber optics will be safe (correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, but as you said, without electricity it worth nothing!  Even if is there some protected structures that will exploit fiber optics, there will privilege to use it to serve iportant communications first than the ordinary Internet!

Yep, it can make down electricity networks, burst any electronics... the most past known and reported event is the Carrington Event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event.. But bigger solar eruptions can occur and were observed, in November 4th 2003 an eruption even too big that saturated the measuring instruments were observed, initially estimated to be X28 class it was after reevaluated at X45!

And what if some entities wanted to fool the word creating completely artificial blocks and adding them to the blockchain ?  How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??

That entity still have to produce valid block. It means attack they could do is limited[2] (e.g. creating empty block), while requiring lots of ASIC due to high difficulty.

I remembre around 2014 or so a website offering to buy empty used (addresses/wallets) ..  If they do it in a limited network, they will be not in need of very high ressources/hardwares !  (or no?)

How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??

Trust? Full node software automatically verify whether the block is valid or not. And as stated by other member, node eventually will choose chain with most work after telecommunication problem is solved.

And if they are the only actors of the/that network ??

Authentication signature? There's no such thing on Bitcoin protocol.

I didn't say there is, It will need to be added !

[PrivacyG]

Interesting discussion Danydee, this is a topic I do not share too much knowledge with so it is interesting to read up on it.

I presume the outcome will heavily depend on how much of the world is disconnected from the internet and for how long.  Also, does this include an electricity drop or are you imagining a scenario where only the internet goes out?

The difficulty is way too high for most of the miners to be able to mine what I call 'evil' blocks.  It will take a significant time to mine a block, which slows down any attack simultaneously.  So if the internet is down for a short while, I suppose no real consequence will be possible and if there was an actual attack, it may be found out in due time once the internet status is restored to normal.

A question I have is what happens if only the internet drops but miners continue their work while different areas of the world come back online at separate times, not all at once.  If mining farm A does the most work but comes online a day after mining farm B which although online is still very behind with the work, what happens?  Do the Bitcoin nodes follow farm B and then move to farm A a day later?

[Danydee]

I presume the outcome will heavily depend on how much of the world is disconnected from the internet and for how long.  Also, does this include an electricity drop or are you imagining a scenario where only the internet goes out?

Allright, my consern is about the hypothesis of whole Internet get disconnected  ... A too huge solar storm could cause this in addition to the breakdown of most electrical infrastructures and damaging many electronics!  In this case, after while, the Bitcoin network will have to be restarted from a long interuption.

A question I have is what happens if only the internet drops but miners continue their work while different areas of the world come back online at separate times, not all at once.  If mining farm A does the most work but comes online a day after mining farm B which although online is still very behind with the work, what happens?  Do the Bitcoin nodes follow farm B and then move to farm A a day later?

Good point..  Even if we link (that authentification) to the fact that the network is running at this sole condition, it could be faked if running the (BTC) protocole on a fake reduced network built to achieve the rigged blocks), so maybe could it be formed on a POS protocole in conjoncton with many other condition-Factors ...? or maybe also making an automated diary grouping many vital informations, diary of activity, network power and activity, online actors identifying, noticied changes... n then including this informations hash on the blocks, so even in case of rigging tentative there will be a diary that relates all the activity.. the miners themself forced to host/or ensure the hosting of the diary so the blocks will only have the hash that is added!

[pooya87]

It is impossible to predict what we should do because it first has to happen and we first have to see what the situation and the damage is then decide. For example unlike what other users said (follow the chain with the most work) I'd say that rule is for normal times but in case of a catastrophic event, such rules no longer apply. Not to mention that in certain scenarios you may not be able to convince others to give up their chain even if it is the one with less work. For example in case global internet is shut down but locally the miners continue communicating with each other and grow their chain and that lasts for a long time (like months or a year). They will never roll back so many blocks and bitcoin would effectively be split into many chains...

[Cricktor]

I would still argue that if the internet breaks down, we'll have more serious problems than what happens to Bitcoin. But I understand that this isn't a satisfying answer. So I'll try to elaborate beyond that.

Hypothetically: no internet, but somehow magically power network is still in some decent shape (unlikely scenario, though).
Bitcoin nodes can't talk via internet with each other, no software updates can be distributed or published. Bitcoin miners are isolated and it doesn't really make sense to work on an isolated chain, because every miner would work on an isolated chain and risking that some other miner's chain could be the heaviest (PoW-wise).

The miner with the biggest hash rate available at one single geographical spot (not needing internet to pool hash power) would be in an advantageous position. They could possibly mine the heaviest valid chain and be sure it will survive when nodes get reconnected again.

All isolated miners would mine more or less "empty" blocks (only with a coinbase transaction) or with some (silly?) own transactions because no other nodes can provide pending transactions to go into a mempool.

In such a hypothetical situation it doesn't make much sense to me to continue to mine as long as nodes can't talk with each other.


From my understanding of Bitcoin (if I'm wrong, I'm more than happy to be corrected) the current protocol has no really working things to cope with a major disruption event that would shatter the current network hashrate or connectivity issues (network connectivity is beyond the scope of node software, that's another layer).

Current difficulty needs a global hashpower in the ballpark of 820+ EH/s to produce on average one block per 10min (more accurate 2016 blocks per two weeks). Difficulty is only adjusted every 2016 blocks.

Worst case would be a major disruption just after a difficulty adjustment. Assume after a major global disruption event the global hashrate is only 1/10th of current and can't ramp up for whatever reasons: the next difficulty adjustment would take on average 20 weeks, every block would be mined on average after 100min in the difficulty period after "the event".

The next difficulty adjustment can't drop to 1/10th of current, because adjustments are currently limited to max. 1/4th on the low side and 4x on the high side.

If Bitcoin had to deal with some major disruptive event that severely changes global hashpower some node software fork would be required to cope with this quickly.

[ABCbits]

And what if some entities wanted to fool the word creating completely artificial blocks and adding them to the blockchain ?  How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??

That entity still have to produce valid block. It means attack they could do is limited[2] (e.g. creating empty block), while requiring lots of ASIC due to high difficulty.

I remembre around 2014 or so a website offering to buy empty used (addresses/wallets) ..  If they do it in a limited network, they will be not in need of very high ressources/hardwares !  (or no?)

Sorry, but i fail to see correlation between high mining difficulty and old empty used address. Difficulty isn't affected by what address you use to receive mining reward. Can you elaborate further?

How to trust a copy of the blockchain then ?  Do all late copies should not-trusted/canceled ??

Trust? Full node software automatically verify whether the block is valid or not. And as stated by other member, node eventually will choose chain with most work after telecommunication problem is solved.

And if they are the only actors of the/that network ??

They still need to create valid block, otherwise current full node on that network would reject it.

Authentication signature? There's no such thing on Bitcoin protocol.

I didn't say there is, It will need to be added !

It looks like i misunderstood your earlier statement. But such addition will add debate such as,
1. It may introduce some centralization.
2. Risk of the private key (used to create authentication signature) got leaked.