Bitcoin Testnet Has Value. Testnet Should Be Considered An Altcoin.

[BayAreaCoins]

I think it's time we come to terms with the fact that Bitcoin Testnet has value—very little, but value nonetheless.

Why?

Proof of Work (POW) – Insert that sales pitch here.

Time – It takes time to acquire these, and many people would rather throw 5 Dogecoins at it and be done—then bill the person who hired them.

Demand for Testing – When demand overruns the free faucets, they must either monetize or continue burning money by handing out funds to third-world bums.

Effective for Airdrops – Using Testnet to airdrop tokens in exchange for widespread testing of DeFi wallet-connected tools works surprisingly well. It attracts a large number of users to stress-test products before launch.  I'm sure it would work for third party aggressive centralized testing as well in exchange for a reward.

Insert the normal reasons needed here

I see plenty of reasons why Bitcoin Testnet has value and very few reasons why it shouldn't, aside from the argument that "it's not supposed to."

Is Bitcoin supposed to be used for a lot of the stuff it has been used for?  *insert the not supposed to bullshit here and all the centralized action the Bitcoin community development has taken against those that aren't "supposed" to use Bitcoin for _____.*  (I don't support this, and I hope you don't either, for the record.)

Free markets talk, and bullshit walks.
Bitcoin Testnet v3 and v4 have yet to hit zero bids in their supported markets alongside Bitcoin.

https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet3

https://altquick.com/exchange/market/BitcoinTestnet4

There is no "reset" in Testnet as previous propaganda suggested—only code rug pulls, attempts, and people exploiting bugs in the software to help justify relaunching to reset the block rewards... the same kind that could happen elsewhere.  *cough* Bitcoin *cough*

Saying Bitcoin Testnet has no value is not true.

Bitcoin Testnet is and has to be an altcoin.

[jokerlu]

There's no doubt this is a diamond whose potential very few know. I already have my coins, so all that's left is to wait for the word to spread and go to the moon...

[MAAManda]

It's not that it has no value, it just shouldn't be traded. That's AFAIK since tBTC can be easily obtained from tBTC faucet sites. But back to the origin of tBTC, it takes energy to even get it from its original source. So, saying tBTC is worthless is simply wrong.

There is no "reset" in Testnet as previous propaganda suggested—only code rug pulls, attempts, and people exploiting bugs in the software to help justify relaunching to reset the block rewards... the same kind that could happen elsewhere.  *cough* Bitcoin *cough*

Since joining the crypto industry, I've never even seen a reset which has been a warning for tBTC HODLers. BTW, it's great to see AltQuick now supports tBTC4 there. Then, I've 1 question for you, mate. Why is tBTC3 currently more expensive than tBTC4? Shouldn't the latest version be more expensive?

[stwenhao]

Why is tBTC3 currently more expensive than tBTC4?

1. Because it is one of the oldest test networks in existence. You can see 2011-02-03 in the Genesis Block, and the last reset was in 2012, which is why you can see 2012-05-24 in block number 514.
2. It had a lot of halvings, so if you want to get some coins, you can mainly get them from transaction fees. The basic block reward is currently set to 9536 satoshis, and will be halved again soon, at block 4,200,000.
3. You can always mine testnet3 blocks on your CPU, no matter what. In testnet4, after 2016 blocks, when the difficulty is adjusted, only ASICs can mine a new block, so all CPU miners are stuck.
4. There were many altcoins, which used testnet3, so the price of a single testnet3 coin also includes the fact, that you can use it not only in testnet3, but also as a way to get other coins.
5. Blockstorms in testnet3 simply means, that their max block size is bigger. If you can produce six blocks per second, then you can confirm up to 24 MB of transactions per second. Which is not the case in testnet4.

Shouldn't the latest version be more expensive?

No, because for example testnet4 was officially released, when around 40k blocks were already mined. And before that date, developers mined a lot of coins on their CPUs, so it is not a network, where everyone could mine coins from the very beginning. You needed some skills, to build binaries from the source code, to even start mining, when the network was created.

And also, when people switched their attention from testnet3 to testnet4, and started attacking testnet4 instead, then testnet3 suddenly became more stable, than it was. You can for example compare chain reorganizations here, to see that: https://fork.observer/

[BayAreaCoins]

Why is tBTC3 currently more expensive than tBTC4? Shouldn't the latest version be more expensive?

The post above me does a great job outlining the technical reasons why, but I think their are heavy social reasons at play too.

I feel and thought the same way, but v3 is pretty wide spread for a worthless testing tool and several projects use them in the asian market (they are wild).

The asian market has driven v3 for a year or so now.

V3 also isn't getting the markets hit by freshly earned block rewards.  Tons of those block rewards are long since gone... basically the same argument as Bitcoin, but amplified and "worthless".

Cash App also uses v3 and won't use v4 for some time due to lighting stuff. (lol)

[BayAreaCoins]

Just to add to that previous post (sorry, breaking the rules, I know)... I think the thought of Testnet 4 being depreciated (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/e568c1dd134e0318c46113cb7dfc23b40e2829e8) before it is well-established makes people concerned enough to avoid it as well (market & use wise).  Obviously, previous agreements are "Testnet will reset if traded," and I've very much established that I don't agree with that philosophy, and I'll continue to "test" this Testnet coin in ways I find interesting & educating, which right now is watching users use it on my website, a free market.  

IF Testnet has no value, then it will have no value on a free market.  It's as simple as that, IMO.


Services and people are switching over, though, and it's a network of folks who want to help people test.  I haven't seen a single service drop v3 though because it is so well established... even Bitcoin Core hasn't (but is scheduled).  It's an interesting experiment.  It'll be a nice cluster fuck if this becomes a weekly event or sad if it is completely removed because people can test on a centralized system...

If Testnet gets a firm "reset" date every 3 years or whatever, the markets will be hot potatoes, and people frankly love that.  "Sorry we didn't fuck you, this developer did."  Sharks are going to be sharks.  Services will have to be updated every 3 years, which is not easy on a global scale. (We will and have seen that difficulty with v4)

V4 is trading around 27 sats and v3 is trading around 330 sats... it's a huge spread.  Fun to watch.  I'm gambling v4 catches up, but v4 has miners dumping and v3 does not... so time will tell! (or maybe they are worthless and there will be no orders on the bid's left... totally possible.)

[peter0425]

I see plenty of reasons why Bitcoin Testnet has value and very few reasons why it shouldn't, aside from the argument that "it's not supposed to."

I guess it can be but honestly I do not understand the purpose of it even. It still follows the same protocol as bitcoin it just is in a different network so it is not like it is an independent currency even. It is not like it is just there for display either. It is for testing which is still a big contribution.

Is Bitcoin supposed to be used for a lot of the stuff it has been used for?  *insert the not supposed to bullshit here and all the centralized action the Bitcoin community development has taken against those that aren't "supposed" to use Bitcoin for _____.*  (I don't support this, and I hope you don't either, for the record.)

Should we not think about what could possibly be the consequences of trading testnet coins? There could be some confusion in the market. Divided community and many more.

[BayAreaCoins]

Should we not think about what could possibly be the consequences of trading testnet coins?

Most definitely, I thought about it for years and at this point.

There could be some confusion in the market.

People trying to sell Testnet for Bitcoin is old dead problems in my opinion when Bitcoin was much cheaper and the Altcoins didn't have marketing budgets.

The crypto scamming market has far evolved past tricking tards into buying Testnet.  Forcing people to buy Bitcoin or Monero is far more profitable.

Divided community and many more.

I feel like a huge value of Bitcoin is that we don't all have to agree with other businesses... if you don't like it, don't use it.  Bitcoin is used for a lot of really good shit and a lot of really bad shit, but that doesn't make one group try to nuke the other group with a few lines of code or even threats of it.

I don't think a divide in the community is necessarily a bad thing.  A few passionate coders could be a good thing as well if Testnet is "up to standard"... which it fucking well should be if it is included in the Core download!!!! (v3 was buggy, it's debatable if v4 is buggy too... testing is good and incentive to test is good as well if everyone has the understanding that it's a shitwar network.)

[Hispo]

I can get behind the idea of Testnet Bitcoins having some value because of the reason OP has listed at the beginning of this thread, specially because there is an actual demand for them and a little effort which is needed to mine them.
Though, one of the things which need to be pointed out is who the value of Testnet coins is minimal and it is supposed to stay minimal. They are not supposed to be an asset to hold in the long term or supposed to be accepted as collateral, for obvious reasons.

Also, I don't have any doubt there would be scammers ready to try to fool newbies into paying the full price of real Satoshis in exchange of Testnet Satoshis, in order to take advantage of the similarity in the name between both networks... Anyways, each one of us can have their own opinion.

[CroverNo01]

I can get behind the idea of Testnet Bitcoins having some value because of the reason OP has listed at the beginning of this thread, specially because there is an actual demand for them and a little effort which is needed to mine them.
Though, one of the things which need to be pointed out is who the value of Testnet coins is minimal and it is supposed to stay minimal. They are not supposed to be an asset to hold in the long term or supposed to be accepted as collateral, for obvious reasons.

Also, I don't have any doubt there would be scammers ready to try to fool newbies into paying the full price of real Satoshis in exchange of Testnet Satoshis, in order to take advantage of the similarity in the name between both networks... Anyways, each one of us can have their own opinion.

We should be careful in the space because scammers have tried every means to exploit us with the tempting styles they know. For me, I've exempted from all activities that I have no clue about especially when we don't have our proper stands in the system. Bitcoin testnet have value and it's important we anticipate in this sector since we've knowledge about it. Testnet growing vastly in the system and have become something we've valued and become acquainted with, I've always seen myself flying higher in the market with solid knowledge.

[ultrloa]

I can get behind the idea of Testnet Bitcoins having some value because of the reason OP has listed at the beginning of this thread, specially because there is an actual demand for them and a little effort which is needed to mine them.
Though, one of the things which need to be pointed out is who the value of Testnet coins is minimal and it is supposed to stay minimal. They are not supposed to be an asset to hold in the long term or supposed to be accepted as collateral, for obvious reasons.

Also, I don't have any doubt there would be scammers ready to try to fool newbies into paying the full price of real Satoshis in exchange of Testnet Satoshis, in order to take advantage of the similarity in the name between both networks... Anyways, each one of us can have their own opinion.

The idea maybe come up its because Bitcoin testnet is been used  for some activities that's why there's should be at least a little value with it so that those exert some efforts with this testnet coins will somehow get rewarded.

But I guess they are just erasing that earning option with these testnet coin since they don't want to confuse people and everyone will directly go to the real Bitcoin then deal with it. There's so many scammers in the scene and maybe they are preventing those possible scamming incident that's why they choose not to give value on Bitcoin testnet coins. But who knows maybe there would be a good demand would come and it gives value unto this coin.

[Hispo]

...

The idea maybe come up its because Bitcoin testnet is been used  for some activities that's why there's should be at least a little value with it so that those exert some efforts with this testnet coins will somehow get rewarded.

But I guess they are just erasing that earning option with these testnet coin since they don't want to confuse people and everyone will directly go to the real Bitcoin then deal with it. There's so many scammers in the scene and maybe they are preventing those possible scamming incident that's why they choose not to give value on Bitcoin testnet coins. But who knows maybe there would be a good demand would come and it gives value unto this coin.

I have already read some stories of newbies interested in buying Bitcoin and stumbling with a too-good-to-be-true offer, so they fall for it in order to save money for they Satoshis they intent to buy. In the end, they received Testnet Satoshis in exchange for the full price of those Satoshis as they were the actual deal, to it is reasonable Bitcoin Testnet developers want to make people reluctant on giving value to Testnet Bitcoins, because it could actually create confusion and make easier for scammers to get money out of people.
It is a matter of education and doing one's research, I know.,but the least chances scammers have to get away with their schemes, the better.

[knowngunman]

I have already read some stories of newbies interested in buying Bitcoin and stumbling with a too-good-to-be-true offer, so they fall for it in order to save money for they Satoshis they intent to buy. In the end, they received Testnet Satoshis in exchange for the full price of those Satoshis as they were the actual deal, to it is reasonable Bitcoin Testnet developers want to make people reluctant on giving value to Testnet Bitcoins, because it could actually create confusion and make easier for scammers to get money out of people.
It is a matter of education and doing one's research, I know.,but the least chances scammers have to get away with their schemes, the better.

Wait... You mean some newbies falling victim of buying testnet coins with the actual amount of original coin? What a pity! But do they even deserve to be pitied? I don't think so. If you fail to learn the proper way, you'll eventually learn the hard way. I see no point in rushing to buy bitcoin when you don't really have the knowledge required. You need to know much about what you intend to invest in before the investment.

Saying Bitcoin Testnet has no value is not true.

Bitcoin Testnet is and has to be an altcoin.

Testnet has value, there's no argument about that fact but the value is insignificant as long as you can not trade them at that value. The value here is not about what is displayed in your screen, it's beyond that. The fact that we make use of it to test run different tasks simply means it's valuable but that doesn't attribute it monetary value.

If we agreed to refer to bitcoin testnet as altcoin, what will happen to altcoins testnet? Remember altcoins have testnet too, what can they be called?

[TastyChillySauce00]

Even eth sepolia has value now, the problem is always with those people who keep claiming testnet token which supposedly to be used for testing, hoarding it, and abuse the faucet.
Meanwhile there's also ongoing layer2 projects or whatever it is that utilizes testnet coin heavily, last time I see people are seeking for bitcoin testnet to run hemi PoP validator.

So it's combination of demand and people abusing faucet that causes the token to have price. so I'm not even surprised.

[BayAreaCoins]

Even eth sepolia has value now

This blows my mind as well.

I think they are traded on Defi that connects "real and fake"?

[stwenhao]

If we agreed to refer to bitcoin testnet as altcoin, what will happen to altcoins testnet? Remember altcoins have testnet too, what can they be called?

All of them are altcoins, unless you have networks, which are strongly connected through 1:1 peg, like Lightning Network, or like sidechains, similar to RSK or Liquid on Bitcoin. If you have independent chains, with some independent supply, then all of them are altcoins. You can label anything as "test", but it doesn't change the fact, that it is just another chain, with slightly different consensus, and that's the only difference. Think about "testnet" as just a part of the network's name: you have one altcoin named "testnet3", and another altcoin named "testnet4", and yet another altcoin named "eth sepolia", and so on.

Proof of Work

If that's what can give value to anything, then look at this transaction: https://mempool.space/testnet4/tx/cc159432ffb7a166abeccc79800e9616a09ea9ac6937080c2ca37b38671970e5

You need Proof of Work to move the coins. For the first address, there are even some examples. For others, you just change the number in the Script from 60 to 59, 58, 57, and so on. And with each and every address, it gets harder and harder, as the size of the required signature gets smaller and smaller. Does it mean, that these coins are now more valuable than others, because you need more Proof of Work to handle them?

[BayAreaCoins]

Bitcoin Testnet v4 hit 1 satoshi today. 

POW is the distribution as well, which I think is more valuable than the movement.

[pooya87]

The problem is that the moment you attach a value to testnet coins they stop being test-net coins for testing and it defeats their purpose. That means tbtc can never become an altcoin, it can however become a shitcoin aka a cryptocurrency without any utility that has no reason to exist but may be traded on some teeny tiny exchanges with virtually no volume that give them a value.

There is no "reset" in Testnet as previous propaganda suggested—only code rug pulls, attempts, and people exploiting bugs in the software to help justify relaunching to reset the block rewards... the same kind that could happen elsewhere.  *cough* Bitcoin *cough*

No it can't happen in Bitcoin. The reason why testnet can be reset is because it is "test"net! Nobody cares about it and it realistically has no value, even if it is traded. If someone creates a "reset" of mainnet, they'll be creating a shitcoin like many shitcoins that already exist from bcash to all the other ones that died back in 2018 and most people don't even remember their names any longer.

[stwenhao]

The problem is that the moment you attach a value to testnet coins they stop being test-net coins for testing and it defeats their purpose.

Which is why testnet consensus rules should contain things like demurrage, to prevent that.

The reason why testnet can be reset is because it is "test"net!

I think people incorrectly call these events as "reset", while all that is done in practice, is just leaving the old network as it is, and starting a new one. The true "reset" would happen, when testnet4 would reuse the Genesis Block from testnet3, then produce a new Genesis Block for testnet4 on top of it, at height one, and then mine a new chain, where the total chainwork would be bigger, than it was in testnet3, so all nodes would throw away the old chain, just by following the old rules. Then, you could really call it "reset", if all old nodes would automatically switch from testnet3 to testnet4, just by following the strongest chain.

Edit:

If someone creates a "rest" on mainnet, they'll be creating a shitcoin like many shitcoins that already exist

Well, currently we have testnet3, testnet4, signet, regtest, and who knows what else. Probably, if Bitcoin developers would release testnet5, testnet6, and so on, then it could make test networks weaker, when they will be splitted (in the same way as altcoins can make Bitcoin weaker, by splitting hashrate between independent chains, instead of uniting it). But still, I wonder, if "divide and conquer" is a good strategy after all, and if it won't put Bitcoin wizards in a position of altcoin makers instead, when people will keep trading every test network, which they released.

[pooya87]

The problem is that the moment you attach a value to testnet coins they stop being test-net coins for testing and it defeats their purpose.

Which is why testnet consensus rules should contain things like demurrage, to prevent that.

That would be another problem. The more we change testnet rules the less it is going to be a Bitcoin test network as it becomes more and more different.

On top of that, any changes in consensus rules would be an extra burden on developers to maintain as the code would start becoming more bloated. The reward for this additional work is small which can't justify it.