Bitcoin Testnet Has Value. Testnet Should Be Considered An Altcoin.

[BayAreaCoins]

The problem is that the moment you attach a value to testnet coins they stop being test-net coins for testing and it defeats their purpose.

Why?  This is not logical and not a reality.

No it can't happen in Bitcoin. The reason why testnet can be reset is because it is "test"net! Nobody cares about it and it realistically has no value, even if it is traded.

Yes it can, the name "Bitcoin" is just a name.  It could get really confusing really fast if those forks were done with a little muscle.  Usually the "Winner" has more value and that carries the label.  (presently v3 testnet is trading for at least 10x v4, so it is arguable that v3 Testnet remains as Testnet and v4 is just an altcoin fork as you described.  Testnet world is obviously same same, but different.)

Also, it does have value because someone provided POW for the distribution.  If that doesn't have value, then Bitcoin doesn't either and they are both as worthless as stupid buyers.  (lots of people think this, I *mostly* do not, but it is worth testing and fun.  I think giving Billionaires a way to make money off drugs and stuff without being directly connected has a huge value.)

extra burden on developers

This, their burden far exceeds an exchange.  The exchange gets paid for doing real work.  Devs mostly just hope Jack Dorsy or someone will give them a little handout for the developers nibbling their billionaire nuts.

Earned coins & a sustainable business plan > Begging "scientist" money

Oppressing a free market is never a good thing.  A thriving Testnet is very beneficial for Bitcoin.  Period.

Bitcoin maybe trading at a million dollars a coin today if Testnet wasn't so taboo over the years.  I will NEVER be convinced that introducing a user to Bitcoin Testnet to prepare them for Bitcoin is 1000x better than any confusing ETH/BASE/BNB or any other worthless token like that.  (those are more worthless than Testnet IMO)




I also responded to the Bitcoin dev mailing list that linked this post (garlonicon I think posted it), but mailing list is sensored to the fifth degree... my post won't be available for the public and I didn't fucking save a copy to post here... sigh.

Pretty much just telling the poster they didn't need "historic data" to see how Testnet v4 was going to work out, I laid out the exact plan publically, and I'm *easy* to get a hold of to ask any questions.

The time for this stupid mindset to be a thing of the past.  The ideology of Testnet having no value deserves to be tested.

[pooya87]

The problem is that the moment you attach a value to testnet coins they stop being test-net coins for testing and it defeats their purpose.

Why?  This is not logical and not a reality.

The way I see it is that the test-network is there to be used by:
- newcomers, like people who have no idea how to use a bitcoin wallet (maybe even overwhelmed and scared of it) and want to become familiar with this new form of money without risking anything.
- developers who want to quickly test their code without spending "real" money.
For that, tbtc should remain free and easy to acquire.

The harder it gets to acquire tbtc (high difficulty, low block subsidy, costing >0), the farther it will get from that objective.

So for example if the only way to acquire tbtc were to buy it, then next time I see a newbie in the tech support board confused and overwhelmed about how to sign transactions, push to then network, maybe try a custom script, etc. I wouldn't be able to tell them to use testnet to try things out without losing money.

Yes it can, the name "Bitcoin" is just a name. 

Well... not exactly. Bitcoin is a concept that is defined by a set of rules that everyone has agreed on. If any of them change (like someone resetting the whole chain), everyone has to agree on that change again otherwise it won't be Bitcoin.

Also, it does have value because someone provided POW for the distribution.  If that doesn't have value, then Bitcoin doesn't either and they are both as worthless as stupid buyers.  (lots of people think this, I do not, but it is worth testing and fun.)

That's right, but it is the paradox that exists in testnet. You have to spend money to mine it because of its PoW even if the difficulty is 1, but it can't have value because that defeats the purpose.

Oppressing a free market is never a good thing.

I agree but lets not forget in the decentralized world nobody can even truly oppress anything if there are enough people behind it.
The best example is testnet v3 itself. Despite miniscule block subsidy, despite all the attacks including 51% attacks, despite introduction of v4, etc. it is still around and alive.

The ideology of Testnet having no value deserves to be tested.

Bottom line is that it is more accurate to say "testnet shouldn't have a value" instead of "it doesn't have a value".

[BayAreaCoins]

The way I see it is that the test-network is there to be used by:
- newcomers, like people who have no idea how to use a bitcoin wallet (maybe even overwhelmed and scared of it) and want to become familiar with this new form of money without risking anything.
- developers who want to quickly test their code without spending "real" money.
For that, tbtc should remain free and easy to acquire.

I agree with this for the most part.

We support a faucet that gives out 0.005 TBTC every ten minutes, the issue is that some Developers (as seen in this thread in fact) want 4000 TBTC... which is insane and in my eyes they deserve to spend something at that point.  

Developers trade time, skills and knowledge for coins.  Normal people and noobs trade money, offer services/goods, or beg for coins.  This is the case everywhere and in every blockchain I've encountered.  The barrier of entry to mining Testnet isn't just mining... you've got to be savvy enough to set up your own pool and all types of stuff at the moment.  These are NOT common skills for 99.9% of people I've seen using Testnet.

The issue with faucets not having sustainable business plans is that get drained into businesses that do.  This happened with v3 sadly, the community of faucets with nonbusinessmen running them got smoked entirely by us.  Not on purpose either, there is just a natural flow of power in these networks.

We still have hundreds of v3 available for free, despite miner scarcity, because we've supplemented the magical block rewards (which was drained due to a bug exploited that sat "hidden" for 10ish years, lol) with real business plans.  It was only due to Testnet v3 being used that the blockstorm bug was used maliciously... so using a network helped expose a fairly brutal code error, who would have guessed!

Bottom line is that it is more accurate to say "testnet shouldn't have a value" instead of "it doesn't have a value".

Why shouldn't it?  Because it limits access to Testnet?  I think we've proven that giving people the option to sell & purchase actually increases people's availability to free Testnet coins... considering I think the AltQuick exchanges faucet is the only faucet that still provides v3 Testnet stably.

Developers should focus on doing their job, not releasing buggy shit (which v4 obviously has "problems", releasing v5 with flat out POW is the correct route IMO) and mind their own business when it comes to free markets.  Hot opinion, I know.

[stwenhao]

but mailing list is sensored to the fifth degree

Mailing list is not a forum. If you posted it right now, and you expect to see your post immediately, then you will be disappointed. Posts on mailing list are manually accepted by moderators. Waiting a day or two, to see your post published, is normal.

my post won't be available for the public and I didn't fucking save a copy to post here... sigh

You probably have it somewhere in your mailbox, in "Sent" folder, or in a similar place. And if your post was not a spam, and will be rejected for some reason, then I guess you will get some response from some moderator.

Note that it is a mailing list. Which means, that every time, when you see any message on Google Groups, then it is sent to all subscribers. So, it cannot be automated, because it would be quickly abused. Things are accepted manually, just because every message is sent to N people, so this way of communication has N*M complexity (if you have 10 messages, sent to 100 people, then you have 1,000 real e-mails, that are actually sent, from a real e-mail address; if you allow auto-sending every post, it could be instantly flooded).

To sum up: mailing lists are for patient people, who can accept delays counted in days. It is not a forum. If you want to talk with developers in a faster way, then use faster ways of communication, like IRC, Delving Bitcoin, GitHub comments, or whatever makes sense in a given context.

For that, tbtc should remain free and easy to acquire.

Mining is not "free". It never was. Even CPU mining require some effort.

Bitcoin is a concept that is defined by a set of rules that everyone has agreed on. If any of them change (like someone resetting the whole chain), everyone has to agree on that change again otherwise it won't be Bitcoin.

If you start mining on top of the Genesis Block, and produce a chain with a higher chainwork, than you can see here and now, and that chain would be UTXO-equivalent to the current one, then would you call it "an attack" or not? Because chain reorganization is the only way of removing anything from the blockchain. And if for example SHA-256 will be fully broken, then compressing the chain during re-hashing may be worth considering. Imagine bringing down the size of data handled by Initial Blockchain Download from over 600 GB into something like 20 GB in a backward-compatible way.

[BayAreaCoins]

but mailing list is sensored to the fifth degree

Mailing list is not a forum. If you posted it right now, and you expect to see your post immediately, then you will be disappointed.

Time will tell, but I would shit if a post that bold was included in a email list of such fragile folks with mindsets that don't reflect reality.

This isn't my first rodeo, I paid Bitcoin to be a Wiki contributor (same spam issue, but different and more scammy method created by Mark Karpelès).  Years down the road, Midnightmagic thinks giving away free Bitcoins is impossible. I disagreed, and I was stripped of my Wiki editing privileges + no refund.  All the faucets and free services were then removed.

You probably have it somewhere in your mailbox, in "Sent" folder, or in a similar place.

God, you would think this, but it is not.  https://support.google.com/groups/thread/157263248/can-i-view-emails-i-sent-out-from-google-group?hl=en

And if your post was not a spam, and will be rejected for some reason, then I guess you will get some response from some moderator.

That'll be interesting.  I think it was sent on Wednesday.  I have faith that my message reached those it was intended for, regardless.

I suspect they won't have the decency for someone with such a different opinion than theirs.  I'm frequently wrong, though, so time will tell.

[TastyChillySauce00]

Even eth sepolia has value now

This blows my mind as well.

I think they are traded on Defi that connects "real and fake"?

There's this dex that offers testnet ETH in exchange for real ETH and under the hood they used layerzero.
Last time I checked 0.001 real ETH gets you 12 Sepolia ETH and surprisingly there are tons of people buying it every minutes, the contract is pretty active.

I guess people are just desperate for test coin to be able to test projects and get those airdrops. but honestly it's just pure supply and demand taking effect in my opinion.
Can't lie I bought quite frequently as well, for testing purpose, it saves me the effort of claiming in nonsense faucet with all those captchas .

[BayAreaCoins]

it saves me the effort of claiming in nonsense faucet with all those captchas .

Time is money.  I get it.

Fun fact:  ETH testnet is trading for over 10x compared to Bitcoin Testnet v4.

Prices today:

BTC V3: 0.3122 USD

BTC V4: 0.01226 USD

ETH Sepolia Testnet: 0.1397 USD


I acquired a few fun domains:  Testnet5.com & BitcoinTest.net

Someone has Testnet.com for sale with a minimum offer of $2,550,000 USD. 

[BayAreaCoins]

Bitcoin Testnet is causing havic through the Bitcoin eco system... This week the OP_Return debate is directly connected to enabling a startup (Citrea) to do business... guess what coin they are currently using?  Bitcoin Testnet 4 and you need 10 whole coins.  https://citrea.xyz/bridge

How cute.

*People need to pay attention to Bitcoin Testnet because it is where the most extreme behaviors & actions can be found.*

[zeuner]

In order to be most useful for testing, a testnet should copy the technical characteristics of the tested blockchain as much as possible, including the PoW scheme.

So, attaching a value to testnet tokens would mean that two blockchains would compete over the same hashing resources, but without any innovation that could possibly stem from that competition.

I don't see how this could do anything but harm these blockchains.

[BayAreaCoins]

In order to be most useful for testing, a testnet should copy the technical characteristics of the tested blockchain as much as possible, including the PoW scheme.

I fully agree with this.  Make the mining exactly the same as Bitcoin, so people can specifically test their stuff and then switch over to mainnet with confidence.

So, attaching a value to testnet tokens would mean that two blockchains would compete over the same hashing resources, but without any innovation that could possibly stem from that competition.

Bitcoin Testnet is the place to be innovative first.  This will flow into Bitcoin after it is tested.  This is obviously a good thing.

They may compete with each other in terms of short-term value, but that isn't possible to prevent when there is a demand for a product (Bitcoin Testnet) that people think will help test and increase the value of something they love (Bitcoin).  People are normally really excited about whatever product they are testing as well, examples: OPNet.org, Yala.org, citrea.xyz, and more.

Bitcoin is seen (at the moment) as having long-term value.  Bitcoin Testnet does not need to attempt to give that vibe.  This can easily be achieved with firm "abandonment" dates.  This puts Bitcoin Testnet in a different field of Altcoins that has never been attempted... it'll work I think.

I don't see how this could do anything but harm these blockchains.

It's kinda too fucking bad tbh... people are free to do what they want with this type of cryptocurrency by design.  You know... permissionless and boardless...

[zeuner]

It's kinda too fucking bad tbh... people are free to do what they want with this type of cryptocurrency by design.  You know... permissionless and boardless...

Sure, but at the point where people assign value to tokens from a testnet, they create the need for another testnet facilitating innovation that relates to technical aspects and not token scarcity. At this point, the previous testnet is just another, maximally boring altcoin. So, people might apply their freedom to something more meaningful. But yes, no one is in the position to forbid others to do something that doesn't make sense...

[BayAreaCoins]

V3 also isn't getting the markets hit by freshly earned block rewards.  Tons of those block rewards are long since gone... basically the same argument as Bitcoin, but amplified and "worthless".

Eh, I'm not sure if this statement is as true as I once thought it was.

Here are some 2012 Testnet v3 coins moving around this month... wild.

https://mempool.space/testnet/tx/54f917a658c25bd022c87461c877b43511a7a9e012a0c2e6ef95da9aa34d4204

The market seems fairly robust though and recovers each time it is slapped due to the demand behind it.... very strange.

[BayAreaCoins]

Bitcoin Testnet 4 is finally starting to even out network-wise with the miners, it seems.  Big blocks and they are still catching confirmations, even with people battling for Dif 1 blocks.

Core just needs to switch over the defaults and change the mining (next BTC version for default and Jan 2026 for full POW mining)... then I think she is off to the Testing races.

Someone somewhere is proud of this transaction lol:  https://mempool.space/testnet4/block/00000000000000012aa852da42b27dbcc17f9d6d3ade012bb48176ea7432d971

[IMZ Noo Account]

'At this point, the previous testnet is just another, maximally boring altcoin.'

It has a use-case