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Author Topic: Buying physical gold - another killer application for bitcoins?  (Read 1847 times)
zby
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December 22, 2011, 09:42:03 AM
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I just had this idea when reading:

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You know who you are and unfortunately so do the government goons if you have ever bought any quantity of Gold from an established dealer with a check, a cashier’s check, wire, electronic funds transfer or other traceable method. And because of Check 21 everything is traceable nowadays (even cash within a few degrees of separation) if you used one of these instruments to gather the cash.

from The Golden End Game – A Thought Experiment
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December 22, 2011, 12:47:44 PM
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I am buying physical silver form a guy regularly,
and I told him he could secure transactions with bitcoin,
like request upfront payment of 10% in bitcoin, because there were cases that people canceled order ,
or did not show up for trade.

At first, he seemed interested,
but later discarded the idea because it was
only complicating things for him
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December 22, 2011, 12:49:31 PM
 #3

The same could be said for guns. Just saying.

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December 22, 2011, 02:26:49 PM
 #4

Selling guns past state border, witihout FFL and proper reporting, is a federal felony though. Selling gold is legal, but the government is able to track sales and audit you, that's all.

The same could be said for guns. Just saying.

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December 22, 2011, 02:32:53 PM
 #5

The same could be said for guns. Just saying.

In some states as long as your are not a FFL, the transaction is intra-state and you have no knowledge that the persons is a prohibited person then the transaction would be lawful.  Not sure I would want to sell my used guns in such a manner as to have no evidence that I sold them if/when it ends up being used in a crime though.  Smiley
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December 22, 2011, 02:45:26 PM
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Not sure I would want to sell my used guns in such a manner ...
Invalid premise.  Buy guns, don't sell them. Tongue

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December 22, 2011, 02:49:39 PM
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Not sure I would want to sell my used guns in such a manner ...
Invalid premise.  Buy guns, don't sell them. Tongue

Yeah it was all academic.  I have never been able to part with a firearm once I bought it.
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December 22, 2011, 02:55:15 PM
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Not sure I would want to sell my used guns in such a manner ...
Invalid premise.  Buy guns, don't sell them. Tongue

Yeah it was all academic.  I have never been able to part with a firearm once I bought it.
I suspected that might be the case.

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December 22, 2011, 06:00:39 PM
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Has anyone yet bought or sold physical gold for bitcoins? It would be interesting to find a gold dealer who accepted BTC.
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December 22, 2011, 08:14:24 PM
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Has anyone yet bought or sold physical gold for bitcoins? It would be interesting to find a gold dealer who accepted BTC.

You can buy gold for BTC at: http://coinabul.com
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December 22, 2011, 08:15:10 PM
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Has anyone yet bought or sold physical gold for bitcoins? It would be interesting to find a gold dealer who accepted BTC.
Coinabul sells gold, silver, and other precious metals for Bitcoin!
We've had plenty of satisfied customers Smiley

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December 22, 2011, 09:26:44 PM
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How would you reverse the transaction though if you never received the gold?

This has NOTHING to do with coinabul as I'm sure they're on the level, so please don't infer anything from my above question.

This has bothered me about bitcoin in general though. It's nice for vendors to know they have payment, but what about customers? I know there's record of the transaction in the blockchain, but c'mon what's that going to do for you if the vendor just says screw you?
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December 22, 2011, 09:51:13 PM
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How would you reverse the transaction though if you never received the gold?

This has NOTHING to do with coinabul as I'm sure they're on the level, so please don't infer anything from my above question.

This has bothered me about bitcoin in general though. It's nice for vendors to know they have payment, but what about customers? I know there's record of the transaction in the blockchain, but c'mon what's that going to do for you if the vendor just says screw you?
That's how PayPal works. They always side with the customer. The problem with that model is that it's almost impossible for individual businesses to "screen" their customers. It's impossible to find the good and the bad. I think a reputation based system for businesses works much better. It forces businesses to act responsible and allows them to accept any customer, not just the low risk ones. This also means that the business, instead of PayPal, can decide to give a customer a refund or not in case of a faulty product.

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December 22, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
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How would you reverse the transaction though if you never received the gold?

This has NOTHING to do with coinabul as I'm sure they're on the level, so please don't infer anything from my above question.

This has bothered me about bitcoin in general though. It's nice for vendors to know they have payment, but what about customers? I know there's record of the transaction in the blockchain, but c'mon what's that going to do for you if the vendor just says screw you?

Escrow service?

Also as said above the # of merchants that an individual uses is far smaller than the # of customers a merchant may have.

In one month you may use 50 merchants.  Pretty easy to do at least some validation on them.  Doesn't mean you won't get burned but due diligence is at least possible.  A merchant may have 1K, 10K, 100K customers in the same time period.  Due diligence is impossible. 

Fraud still happens and you pay for it.  It is just hidden in the cost of goods & services.  Merchants cover their risk of credit card fraud in the form of higher prices.

Personally I like the freedom of Bitcoin.
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December 23, 2011, 09:55:12 PM
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I agree the costs are just passed on and it's easier to do your homework on which merchants are reputable.
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December 23, 2011, 10:24:24 PM
 #16

How would you reverse the transaction though if you never received the gold?

This has NOTHING to do with coinabul as I'm sure they're on the level, so please don't infer anything from my above question.

This has bothered me about bitcoin in general though. It's nice for vendors to know they have payment, but what about customers? I know there's record of the transaction in the blockchain, but c'mon what's that going to do for you if the vendor just says screw you?

Escrow service?

Also as said above the # of merchants that an individual uses is far smaller than the # of customers a merchant may have.

In one month you may use 50 merchants.  Pretty easy to do at least some validation on them.  Doesn't mean you won't get burned but due diligence is at least possible.  A merchant may have 1K, 10K, 100K customers in the same time period.  Due diligence is impossible. 

Fraud still happens and you pay for it.  It is just hidden in the cost of goods & services.  Merchants cover their risk of credit card fraud in the form of higher prices.

Personally I like the freedom of Bitcoin.

A traditional escrow service is costing the buy, seller or, sometimes, both money. But what if there were a time delayed escrow-type service used only for Bitcoin transaction. Can this be built into the blockchain? The key here is that the service would be free or damn near.

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December 23, 2011, 10:36:44 PM
 #17

I am buying physical silver form a guy regularly,
and I told him he could secure transactions with bitcoin,
like request upfront payment of 10% in bitcoin, because there were cases that people canceled order ,
or did not show up for trade.

At first, he seemed interested,
but later discarded the idea because it was
only complicating things for him


The guy could print off a paper wallet.  Customer could send deposit to the paper wallet, merchant could verify the deposit is made with Block Explorer.  Merchant would release the deposit either by giving the paper wallet to the customer, or giving them the private key.  All of that would be simple, the merchant would just need to understand good secure ways to convey private keys (e.g. not to e-mail them in the clear).

I have done business in private keys and MtGox codes before... the way I always do it, is to convey most of the code via e-mail, and convey the remainder out-of-band, such as via SMS or a phone call.  (If conveying a private key, at least 15 characters, but preferably 25, should be sent out-of-band, since someone could brute force them, especially if the out-of-band characters consist mainly of checksum bits and not actual key bits.)

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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December 27, 2011, 01:44:22 AM
 #18

I am buying physical silver form a guy regularly,
and I told him he could secure transactions with bitcoin,
like request upfront payment of 10% in bitcoin, because there were cases that people canceled order ,
or did not show up for trade.

At first, he seemed interested,
but later discarded the idea because it was
only complicating things for him


Securing the physical with the digital, that's the challenge with BTC to Silver.

I have bought Silver Bars/Rounds from Apmex, QSB, and Junk Silver on eBay with various degrees of success.

Aside from Coinabul, what options do we have to purchase silver with BTC?

SJ
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December 27, 2011, 03:43:41 AM
 #19

I have done business in private keys and MtGox codes before... the way I always do it, is to convey most of the code via e-mail, and convey the remainder out-of-band, such as via SMS or a phone call.  (If conveying a private key, at least 15 characters, but preferably 25, should be sent out-of-band, since someone could brute force them, especially if the out-of-band characters consist mainly of checksum bits and not actual key bits.)

Do you consider sending over MtGox codes through PGP secure enough?

Never worked with him personally, but I heard Trader Steve trades physicals for BTC http://goldstarbullion.com/
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December 27, 2011, 03:59:28 AM
 #20

Do you consider sending over MtGox codes through PGP secure enough?

Yep I do, but splitting the code works when you're dealing with someone who doesn't use PGP, or when private keys aren't handy etc.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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