Alternative to Bitcoin Mixer Projects...?

[xOrpian]

I've seen some gambling websites use alternative ways to fund accounts and then use games as a bonus. One app I saw was for buying clothes. It had games (I don't remember the exact ones, but some sports ones).

What if you create something similar, intending to mix, and make the odds in favor of the user who deposits? The house edge (% the app takes from each bet/mixing)—After the bet finalizes (There can be settings in account of user, too where the user can select auto withdraw whole balance, or a percentage of it on a certain date of a month , the user gets the amount in their crypto address (Bitcoin likely, if it's an indirect mixing) - You don't have to copy the odds near to what other providers, it's your app and do what you want while keeping laws in mind... I don't know every law that might interfere with this, but surely someone can get that, too.

All while making the website, with a no-logs policy.

It will not be a direct mixing but will bypass most mixing laws.

[Upgrade00]

There are also laws guiding gambling websites which you have to follow and some of those may restrict you from running the casino the way you plan to.

If you plan to keep no logs, you will likely not be able to operate with a license and that can make it difficult to win the trust of users. Also, will you be able to make the games provably fair so players can check the mechanics of how the games are set up

[bitmover]

It will not be a direct mixing but will bypass most mixing laws.

cryptocurrencies exchanges, like exch.net, may work

You can also send money to casinos like betfury, swap coins and withdrawal.

Those are a few projects which might increase your privacy

[xOrpian]

There are also laws guiding gambling websites which you have to follow and some of those may restrict you from running the casino the way you plan to.

If you plan to keep no logs, you will likely not be able to operate with a license and that can make it difficult to win the trust of users. Also, will you be able to make the games provably fair so players can check the mechanics of how the games are set up

You don't have to have a license for online, I have seen locally if you have contacts with authorities, then you get a license, and pay some 30% tax if I am not wrong, I don't mind paying that for the license.

If logs will be required, then It'll only be for local authorities, for tax related not user's information, there will be loops here and there, there always are (It only becomes a problem when other starts copying you, and what you do is no longer private, so i'll also have to think of something about that).

About the trust of users, I don't really think that Mixing needs the trust of users; whoever has more money and wants to mix will likely do that, and if the person can pay, then why do I bother about it?

[bias]

You don't have to have a license for online, I have seen locally if you have contacts with authorities, then you get a license, and pay some 30% tax if I am not wrong, I don't mind paying that for the license.

I don't know if you understand it, but you just verified that you indeed need a licence! Either you will get it legally, or you will bribe to get it. But you will have to get it.

If logs will be required, then It'll only be for local authorities, for tax related not user's information

Sorry, but what are you saying? Tax-related issues are connected with users' information and aren't a separate thing. I think that you are a bit confused...

cryptocurrencies exchanges, like exch.net, may work

Unfortunately and sadly, only until the 1st of May...

[xOrpian]

I don't know if you understand it, but you just verified that you indeed need a licence! Either you will get it legally, or you will bribe to get it. But you will have to get it.

If logs will be required, then It'll only be for local authorities, for tax related not user's information

Sorry, but what are you saying? Tax-related issues are connected with users' information and aren't a separate thing. I think that you are a bit confused...

When you have a business located in a specific region, then it should be obligated to the laws, suppose my business is in Africa then I don't want my server to be in Europe (I wouldn't want external influences impacting my business, by this I mean a change in their law about gambling/mixing businesses, so they come after my server...they've access to it so wouldn;t they), so you can show the business on paper, and local laws are followed for it, rather than Europe's. Yes you will also have to search if EU or other region don't allow this kind of business on their region, you can blacklist IPs from that region, or show a message that users from this place can't use this service, but you know rarely somone listens.

Well if your busness is obligated to local laws, then you'd definately don't want a checkup on you after you've made it big in future (This is not specific to this kind of business) - I mean tax on revenue generated.

[hugeblack]

Name (Service Description) doesn't matter, but the policies. Policies like no-logs policy, no KYC, no cooperation with authorities, no collection of extensive customer data are enough to classify you as a mixer, regardless of the service description.

[xOrpian]

Name (Service Description) doesn't matter, but the policies. Policies like no-logs policy, no KYC, no cooperation with authorities, no collection of extensive customer data are enough to classify you as a mixer, regardless of the service description.

If you don't collect KYC, then does it really matter that you'd have to show that to authorities, they'll make to collect KYC docs? - It'd be better to contact people locally who know much about local laws, laws aren't same everywhere.

[hugeblack]

If you don't collect KYC, then does it really matter that you'd have to show that to authorities, they'll make to collect KYC docs? - It'd be better to contact people locally who know much about local laws, laws aren't same everywhere.

It depends on the size of the service. Many of the services that have been seized were in countries like the Seychelles, Taiwan, and others, yet the United States seized them.
Policies like IP blacklisting or showing a message that users from this place can't use this service may work if the service is small, but when it grows in size and the number of users increases, you will have to enforce KYC to enforce these money laundering allegations (especially if the service is highlighted)

[xOrpian]

If you don't collect KYC, then does it really matter that you'd have to show that to authorities, they'll make to collect KYC docs? - It'd be better to contact people locally who know much about local laws, laws aren't same everywhere.

It depends on the size of the service. Many of the services that have been seized were in countries like the Seychelles, Taiwan, and others, yet the United States seized them.
Policies like IP blacklisting or showing a message that users from this place can't use this service may work if the service is small, but when it grows in size and the number of users increases, you will have to enforce KYC to enforce these money laundering allegations (especially if the service is highlighted)

Yea, can't say I deny that, there have been examples, where US will interefere specically for such services, from what I've seen they let you run it for a while and when it becomes big pressure is put on you, they really don't like anonymity.

[bias]

Yea, can't say I deny that, there have been examples, where US will interefere specically for such services, from what I've seen they let you run it for a while and when it becomes big pressure is put on you, they really don't like anonymity.

No, they don't, and they will do whatever they can to stop it or force the service provider to comply with their rules, no matter where you are. Unfortunately, for all of us, this is something that we can't escape from.

[xOrpian]

Yea, can't say I deny that, there have been examples, where US will interefere specically for such services, from what I've seen they let you run it for a while and when it becomes big pressure is put on you, they really don't like anonymity.

No, they don't, and they will do whatever they can to stop it or force the service provider to comply with their rules, no matter where you are. Unfortunately, for all of us, this is something that we can't escape from.

China, and Russia doesn't comply with their rules, and the tension between them is understandable, even when you look at Ukraine war, Trump did say to the leader of Ukraine (without US, you wouldn't survive x number of days on war field) - Even through did US gave help voluntarily?, If there can be proxy war initiated then why would they get their hands dirty (End justifies the means is what it is) I cannot share something here, but if you look at what the Mexican leader said, 'The US is controlled by xxxx', then you'll get the picture, 'Even though I don't trust everything articles show, everyone is trying to show their own view, but I do read between the lines whereever I can'.

Would've shared an article, but that would've taken it one sided, and would seem like I am against a perticular 'species' on this planet. Still, when species combine and only think for their kind 'while pretneding to think for others' then you know where it's headed, specially when the media doesn't have free will, then you can't expect honest thoughts about it, people had been killed when they knew too much, or try to speak up, Kennedy is a good example of it

[FinneysTrueVision]

There is no need to overcomplicate things. Mixing in and of itself isn’t illegal. It’s the way in which people use mixers and how custodial financial services are regulated that makes them a target for law enforcement. You can’t bypass AML laws by turning a mixer into a casino that indirectly mixes your coins.

[xOrpian]

There is no need to overcomplicate things. Mixing in and of itself isn’t illegal. It’s the way in which people use mixers and how custodial financial services are regulated that makes them a target for law enforcement. You can’t bypass AML laws by turning a mixer into a casino that indirectly mixes your coins.

What's the solution, then?

[FinneysTrueVision]

There is no need to overcomplicate things. Mixing in and of itself isn’t illegal. It’s the way in which people use mixers and how custodial financial services are regulated that makes them a target for law enforcement. You can’t bypass AML laws by turning a mixer into a casino that indirectly mixes your coins.

What's the solution, then?

Ideally, anything that is privacy related should be developed in anonymity and also be completely decentralized so that it is impossible to shut down. Something like JoinMarket and Tornado Cash can’t be taken down, but as we have already seen with Tornado Cash, the founders can still be arrested because their identities were well known. Users should continue using legitimate privacy preserving tools and eventually financial privacy will hopefully become normalized and common.

[bias]

Ideally, anything that is privacy related should be developed in anonymity and also be completely decentralized so that it is impossible to shut down. Something like JoinMarket and Tornado Cash can’t be taken down, but as we have already seen with Tornado Cash, the founders can still be arrested because their identities were well known. Users should continue using legitimate privacy preserving tools and eventually financial privacy will hopefully become normalized and common.

Sorry, but there isn't such a thing as impossible to shut down. We are talking about the ones who control the whole system that we live in—the Matrix. As long as they can make new laws, sanctions, bans, and fees, they can eventually arrest anyone (with any charge that they can think of or even invent).
As much as I want to be optimistic like you, the current situation shows that we are heading in the direct opposite direction, and privacy along freedom will become a rarity instead of being common.

[examplens]

There is no need to overcomplicate things. Mixing in and of itself isn’t illegal. It’s the way in which people use mixers and how custodial financial services are regulated that makes them a target for law enforcement. You can’t bypass AML laws by turning a mixer into a casino that indirectly mixes your coins.

What's the solution, then?

Register the company in an offshore zone, Hong Kong for example. Also, use one of the most anonymous hosting services, like Njalla.
With a lot of caution, you can work anonymously, but if you become significant in the ecosystem, things can always get complicated. The best example is everything that happens with exch.net

[bias]

Register the company in an offshore zone, Hong Kong for example. Also, use one of the most anonymous hosting services, like Njalla.
With a lot of caution, you can work anonymously, but if you become significant in the ecosystem, things can always get complicated. The best example is everything that happens with exch.net

That means that there is no solution. When you become significant and get noticed by the system, you are done. So, you try to go unnoticed? Then what's the reason for doing this in the first place? And even if you don't want to be known, people and users will make you known, and then it will be the start of your ending.

[Vod]

When you become significant and get noticed by the system, you are done. So, you try to go unnoticed? Then what's the reason for doing this in the first place?

Isn't that the way many (crypto) businesses are run?  Stay low, below radar, until you see you can make legitimate income, and then make yourself legal.

Even children do this - they set up a lemonade stand illegally (lol) and don't pay taxes, until they get older and sell Amway legally. 

[xOrpian]

When you become significant and get noticed by the system, you are done. So, you try to go unnoticed? Then what's the reason for doing this in the first place?

Isn't that the way many (crypto) businesses are run?  Stay low, below radar, until you see you can make legitimate income, and then make yourself legal.

Even children do this - they set up a lemonade stand illegally (lol) and don't pay taxes, until they get older and sell Amway legally. 

It's even tragic when officials know this and get pissed when they can't advantage of child doing this 

After 12-Year-Old Egg Vendor Refuses to Pay Rs 100 Bribe, Indore Civic Body Officials Topple His Cart

Tragic, the kid ruined it for less than 1.5$, would the official had stopped after his first attempt