It is a fair or provably fair system? Please have a look...

[bitbollo]

Hi guys, I have a questions for you all... I am not really expert for these items and I want get your opinion here.

There is a game (classic DICE) where a casino provide for each roll both seeds (CASINO and PLAYER). Nonce is fixed and it changes with an increment of +1 after each game.

Its not possible to change players or casino seed. I can verify only previous rolls. I can't verify next rolls, or just change the player seed after each roll.

This is fair or provably fair system? Please provide your opinion... just to be clear name of the site doesn't matter, I want understand if this is plausible as setup or not.

[kotajikikox]

Its not possible to change players or casino seed. I can verify only previous rolls. I can't verify next rolls, or just change the player seed after each roll.

This is fair or provably fair system? Please provide your opinion... just to be clear name of the site doesn't matter, I want understand if this is plausible as setup or not.

It is quite complex. It is only partially provably fair. There is a part where you can verify the fairness of this game since you can check the previous rolls however the casino knows too much. Since they can see the future rolls and also have access with all the other factors involved such as the seeds and nonce, it is possible for them to manipulate the game especially you can't change the seed.

There is an element of verification you can do but I think it still leans towards fair. You have to trust that the casino is not cheating.

[blomen]

seeds or other provably fair algorithms, i don't know what's going on behind any of them. i'm not that expert.

but i have some suspicions that casinos, which is a pretty common idea, are deliberately giving some results. people who are experts in these things will know the details, but i don't think there is anything “provably fair” about casinos in the virtual environment.

i think we are at the mercy of virtual casinos. but there are also casinos that claim to be fair, or even have really fair betting.

[Charles-Tim]

but i have some suspicions that casinos, which is a pretty common idea, are deliberately giving some results. people who are experts in these things will know the details, but i don't think there is anything “provably fair” about casinos in the virtual environment.

If 3 to 5% of gamblers are losing, then what is provably fair about the games that we are playing? There is nothing provably fair about it at all as long as their is house edge which the casino use to calculate their odds and making sure that almost all the gamblers are losing.

Sorry OP if this sounds as off-topic.

This is what I have noticed in casinos. There are times you will noticed that it is like the casino is cheating, but you will go to another casino to experience the same thing. Also going to other casinos to experience also the same thing like continuous loss.

[bitbollo]

I am trying just to understand more since I dont want to place anyone in danger/trouble with this bad experience.

this is the first time where I am seeing a "provably fair" game where both seeds are provided by the casino and YOU CANNOT CHANGE seed or verify your next bets. Imagine at each run you get both seeds and thats all...Ok all possible combinations are always plausible but this sounds really strange to me.

What is really worst... they confirmed that is my mistake since I can change my seed
Of course this is a pure lie (screenshots and video are already recorded...) and seems that they want to cover in someway this issue.
I can share details to moderator or any "gambling support" (I have already reached a couple...)

[Fivestar4everMVP]

Its not possible to change players or casino seed. I can verify only previous rolls. I can't verify next rolls, or just change the player seed after each roll.

This is fair or provably fair system? Please provide your opinion... just to be clear name of the site doesn't matter, I want understand if this is plausible as setup or not.

It is quite complex. It is only partially provably fair. There is a part where you can verify the fairness of this game since you can check the previous rolls however the casino knows too much. Since they can see the future rolls and also have access with all the other factors involved such as the seeds and nonce, it is possible for them to manipulate the game especially you can't change the seed.

There is an element of verification you can do but I think it still leans towards fair. You have to trust that the casino is not cheating.

This is exactly the point I was going to make, you are absolutely correct and sure agree wit you, one has to simply trust a casino to not cheat and that just it, if one does not trust the casino, then don't play there, look for another casino you trust and that's just it.

I believe this is the only way because I don't believe in all of this provably fair stuff, and this is due to my own personal experiences in the past, whether the fairness of a game can be verified or not, it doesn't stop or limits the casino from manipulating the game if they want to, it is a system them built or manage in the bank end of the casino and they have the power to do whatever the want with it, it is absurd to think they would sit and watch gamblers drain their wallet through winning all in the name of ensuring their game is fair for both sides..

[danherbias07]

The good side here is that the seeds are available and you can verify them, which I think is a good sign that the provably fair system is working. I have bumped into several online casinos that don't offer that kind of feature. You won't even have any idea what happened or what will happen because there's no way you can check or verify them.

But I still think that if you are doubting how their casino works, you should switch. There are a lot of reputable casinos that offer changes of seeds like Stake.com, and the verification is also there.

[bitbollo]

The good side here is that the seeds are available and you can verify them, which I think is a good sign that the provably fair system is working. I have bumped into several online casinos that don't offer that kind of feature. You won't even have any idea what happened or what will happen because there's no way you can check or verify them.

But I still think that if you are doubting how their casino works, you should switch. There are a lot of reputable casinos that offer changes of seeds like Stake.com, and the verification is also there.

You can verify only a portion of previous seeds. (likewise the last 10 bets).
Even if you can verify the seeds this not change anything since in a matter of milliseconds, considering Nonces are always knonw (is just incremental +1)
They can adapt BOTH seeds and have any possible result imaginable
Of course I am not saying they are doing this but there is not something that can be verified... and I don't know how it could be a "fair" system if they are tossing out BOTH seeds and there is no way to verify-change anything.
Sincerely I am not seeing a trusted system here.

The fact they are confirming "you can change seed" - no in this game I CANNOT CHANGE meanwhile others yes I can.

However thanks for confirming my view/suspect. Please avoid to repeat the same things, I will close the topic in a few hours if no new valid insighits are provided.

[panjul07]

but i have some suspicions that casinos, which is a pretty common idea, are deliberately giving some results. people who are experts in these things will know the details, but i don't think there is anything “provably fair” about casinos in the virtual environment.

If 3 to 5% of gamblers are losing, then what is provably fair about the games that we are playing? There is nothing provably fair about it at all as long as their is house edge which the casino use to calculate their odds and making sure that almost all the gamblers are losing.

Sorry OP if this sounds as off-topic.

This is what I have noticed in casinos. There are times you will noticed that it is like the casino is cheating, but you will go to another casino to experience the same thing. Also going to other casinos to experience also the same thing like continuous loss.

You are mixing things up, provably fair system has nothing to do with your winning/losing percentage/chance.
The terminology is clear about "fair" where the bets placed by gamblers are fair which means that the casino cant manipulate the result as with provably fair system, players are able to check/verify their bets.
It is not off-topic but you have different understanding about what is provably fair compared to what most other people understand about it.
@OP: I'm not sure if provably fair system let us to verify the upcoming bets, as far as I know it is limited to verification for our previous bets only and on the other part, we can change the seed of upcoming bets.
For me this is already a provably fair already but I'm not an expert about it.

[crwth]

I agree that skepticism about how fair the system would be in a casino is usual, but sometimes it's about how "special" you think you are about what's happening with you. Sometimes it's how you see things, but that's how it works when you take it from an outside view.

Verifying is good, but if you are playing at a reputable casino, you wouldn't have to worry about it too much.

[Charles-Tim]

but i have some suspicions that casinos, which is a pretty common idea, are deliberately giving some results. people who are experts in these things will know the details, but i don't think there is anything “provably fair” about casinos in the virtual environment.

If 3 to 5% of gamblers are losing, then what is provably fair about the games that we are playing? There is nothing provably fair about it at all as long as their is house edge which the casino use to calculate their odds and making sure that almost all the gamblers are losing.

Sorry OP if this sounds as off-topic.

This is what I have noticed in casinos. There are times you will noticed that it is like the casino is cheating, but you will go to another casino to experience the same thing. Also going to other casinos to experience also the same thing like continuous loss.

You are mixing things up, provably fair system has nothing to do with your winning/losing percentage/chance.
The terminology is clear about "fair" where the bets placed by gamblers are fair which means that the casino cant manipulate the result as with provably fair system, players are able to check/verify their bets.
It is not off-topic but you have different understanding about what is provably fair compared to what most other people understand about it.
@OP: I'm not sure if provably fair system let us to verify the upcoming bets, as far as I know it is limited to verification for our previous bets only and on the other part, we can change the seed of upcoming bets.
For me this is already a provably fair already but I'm not an expert about it.

You are the one that is mixing things up. I know what probably fair game is and I mentioned house edge along which you can see in my post. I know their differences but what I mean is that most gamblers are still losing. Also you can see where I posted that my post about it may be off-topic which is enough to know that I know what I posted. Indirectly, no game is probably fair as long as house edge is existing and the casinos will always make money from gamblers. You people do not need to be thinking the games are probably fair when almost all gamblers are losing. House edge makes it not provably fair but gamblers do not mind that as long as there is not cheating in the game.

[Fivestar4everMVP]

I agree that skepticism about how fair the system would be in a casino is usual, but sometimes it's about how "special" you think you are about what's happening with you. Sometimes it's how you see things, but that's how it works when you take it from an outside view.

Verifying is good, but if you are playing at a reputable casino, you wouldn't have to worry about it too much.

Sorry but what exactly are you saying in the first part of your comment? If you don't mind explaining a bit further, I did love to understand how what we think about what is happening to us got or became related to how fair or unfair the game we are playing on a casino is, I did love to also understand the speciality in this as well..

The second part of your comment is where I find value in every thing you said, and this is also related to something other users have previously said, which is that sometimes, one shouldnt focus on finding a casino with provably fair games, but rather focus on finding a casino they can trust well enough to not want to cheat their customers, for the first could be highly deceiving, something like "the more you look, the less you see", simply means that it's very possible for you as gambler to verify that the game you are playing is fair, while the casino is still there manipulating outcomes from the backend.

[bitbollo]

...
I know it is limited to verification for our previous bets only and on the other part, we can change the seed of upcoming bets.
For me this is already a provably fair already but I'm not an expert about it.

there is a clear contradiction here. as mentioned no, SEED CANT BE CHANGED!
And you can verify only a SMALL portion of previous bets (10?)
So well, according your statement even if you're not an expert, THIS NOT PROVABLY FAIR.

how "special" you think you are
...

Pardon? I am "special" like any other user.  I am acting also very politely avoid to mentioning name or what ever.  Stick to the topic and read what is the issue.

...
Verifying is good, but if you are playing at a reputable casino, you wouldn't have to worry about it too much.

no no, there is a rule here = don't trust, verify.
I Am surprised that a Legendary say this.
Its not just "they are a scammers" but it could be also an issue made by programmer or who knows there is an hack.
I want verify things, I cannot trust anything in a blind way.

Are you sure this is fair way if you get both seeds and you cannot change anything? How these seeds are produced? Are you not noticing nothing wrong?

[Apocollapse]

AFAIK many casinos I've played let me to change the player/client seed, so it's weird they didn't allow it.

For me it's not provably fair, you have to trust the casino for generating the casino seed randomly, unfortunately we have no way to verify if they generate random or specific. If we're not given an option to change our seed, it's like the destiny of our gambling results depend on our account. That's why some people claim their account is terrible, his friend account is lucky, so they create multiple accounts in order to get lucky account.

[Perfectbaby]

Its not possible to change players or casino seed. I can verify only previous rolls. I can't verify next rolls, or just change the player seed after each roll.

This is fair or provably fair system? Please provide your opinion... just to be clear name of the site doesn't matter, I want understand if this is plausible as setup or not.

It is quite complex. It is only partially provably fair. There is a part where you can verify the fairness of this game since you can check the previous rolls however the casino knows too much. Since they can see the future rolls and also have access with all the other factors involved such as the seeds and nonce, it is possible for them to manipulate the game especially you can't change the seed.

There is an element of verification you can do but I think it still leans towards fair. You have to trust that the casino is not cheating.

This is exactly the point I was going to make, you are absolutely correct and sure agree wit you, one has to simply trust a casino to not cheat and that just it, if one does not trust the casino, then don't play there, look for another casino you trust and that's just it.

I believe this is the only way because I don't believe in all of this provably fair stuff, and this is due to my own personal experiences in the past, whether the fairness of a game can be verified or not, it doesn't stop or limits the casino from manipulating the game if they want to, it is a system them built or manage in the bank end of the casino and they have the power to do whatever the want with it, it is absurd to think they would sit and watch gamblers drain their wallet through winning all in the name of ensuring their game is fair for both sides..

If someone don't trust a casino why then go gamble there after the trust has already been broken? To me whenever I have double mind with a gambling site I don't dare go to gamble because definitely I would face difficulties or have some challenges that would later make me to regret why gambling there because the trust has already been bridge without me having to go gamble there.

And talking if how fair a casino could be, like I don't understand and is it a new thing to know that casino are more designed to give the operator more winning than those that gambles with it?

Yes, as I might think, casino mostly favors the owner and they are also in charge to manipulate the casino the way they wanted and not the way to favor the gamblers, after having this mindset why do we think that they are provably fair casino except for the most reputable gambling sites.

[YOSHIE]

Its not possible to change players or casino seed. I can verify only previous rolls. I can't verify next rolls, or just change the player seed after each roll.

As far as I know, online casinos usually use gambler technology are generally known, namely (provably fair) or what is called (seed) in creating numeric codes or strings aims to ensure predictions in the form of justice.
For that, if I am not mistaken, there are two types of seeds, namely seeds and seed servers.
Well, if you talk about the player's seed after you produce or select the code or dice number will automatically be saved safely By the casino for that the code you can verify you can make sure it is really a random result, not the manipulation of the casino itself.
In contrast to the seed server it is produced by your casino server not knowing it.

The point: in my view the seeds of players are indeed made to be fair meaning there is no manipulation done by the casino.

[bitbollo]

....
The point: in my view the seeds of players are indeed made to be fair meaning there is no manipulation done by the casino.

Thank YOSHIE for confirmation.
With this site (only with this game) there is no way to setup or change player seed and it's changing randomly with each roll.
I don't know how they spit out a new seed with each roll nor do they generate the casino seeds... you cannot reset, literally you can't do nothing.
Including the nonce that has an increment of +1 with each play.

I think that all users find a bit "questionable" to use an euphemism this procedure. Last hours and I will close the topic.

I hope that = this site close the game or made substantial change to their "provably fair" procedure. Since is not fair or provably.