[Bitcoin Core] I nominate myself to be Guardian of Testnest if it is premined.

[BayAreaCoins]

Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman's agreement to not trade testnet coins for money, this results in predictable chaos with people sniping the low difficulty blocks. Some believed that resetting alone would discourage the conduct, but even if it had (it hadn't people are selling them now) it was still likely that people would hoard up coins just in case they became tradable in the future.

There is a simple fix for this which doesn't result in an operating difference from Bitcoin, just an economic one.   Hard fork in an ultramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays with existing value overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?).

This also resolves the 'actual developers can't get coins problem' and if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can.  Once they run out of coins it'll be time for another testnet reset.

It may just not be possible to prevent degens from trading tn coins for money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some people spend money on ,  there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrency where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool.  But what can't be prevented can at least be turned into a benefit.

Compared to things like just rigging the subsidy to continue forever-- that's a bigger consensus change compared to bitcoin, and I think it doesn't have the right incentive surface... some of the most popular altcoins have endless inflation and people still use them.  Instead you want the failure mode to be "if you do trade this for money, most of the profits end up going to support a developer or development, rather than whatever jerk decided to trick people into paying for it".

Feel free to suggest yourself as the custodian of the premine.  Or it could be some anonymous party if there is a concern that they'll be pestered for handouts.  There should be a general expectation that the custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin development,  but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just another reset.

I would like to nominate myself.  
(I would need to talk more about the expectations of the position, but I feel pretty well positioned to handle everything described.)

I can assure you I can handle Bitcoin Testnet as stated by Greg and probably more so.  I'm also well-positioned for the above proposal... as I am the exchange owner, I would still earn my fees (now with your assistance in the above proposal, but I think I've already been assisted by a few that type on the Mailing list.)  I could charge a 50% fee for the market, and a tester would still do business in order to test someone's project they were really excited about + I have the ability to freeze suspicious bad actors.  I would potentially consider this an attack, and it would be interesting to see how it played out.

I compare it to a Walmart parking lot vs an Aldi parking lot.  Aldi charges .25 for a big cart and you get that 25 cents back when it is put up.  Walmart is a shitshow and Aldi has kids/homeless/me walking around returning carts for them.  I imagine anything you do, I can summon those carts back.  We have other options as well, but I don't have to discuss my exact intents and write it out in code... I can move swiftly due to no bureaucracy and I don't get a paycheck every week, I have to make my paycheck through services.  Thankfully, there is a demand for some of those services.

I got a good chuckle at "It may just not be possible to prevent degens from trading tn coins for money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some people spend money on Smiley,  there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrency where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool.  But what can't be prevented can at least be turned into a benefit."  I agree.  Trust me, this market has blown my mind more than anyone... it is absurd and it is evolving!!! Let these folks evolve.

Establish a set day for a totally new testnet and drop the old version out of the current core... it feels so obvious to me, that will keep the long term people out and short term people have a reason to put up a cart + keep stuff not scarce.

I would propose Jan 7, 2030.  Build the mindset that any degen that holds past then has an "expired option" type leftbehind test coin.  (This feels so obvious to me)


I think it is a *terrible* idea to premine Testnet coins.  If the punishment is selling the coins... you are literally doing 50% of the exchange owners duty to get paid themselves!  It's such a fucking mess, but you almost need to be the one with the exchange to challenge the exchange.  Clearly, my little shit exchange that has bothered nobody, is still getting brought up by people who should be focused on Bitcoin with its $1,880,000,000,000 market cap.  

IMO Testnet should have normal POW, all the reasons it doesn't are complete bullshit.  Fork it, v5, or whatever you got to do in order to have POW that is like Bitcoin (after all, that's the goal, right?)

Perhaps table it till 2029 and reconfirm the 2030 date.  (These dates can be moved up of course, but 5-10 years felt like a pretty good spot.  It isn't a huge pain in the ass to upgrade for the community either that often... It's a really rough few hours to me while I eat Hot Pockets and watch us upgrade, lol like I told Sjor via email... The exchange MAKES MORE COINS EVERY VERSION FROM CONFUSED PEOPLE, people won't just give up their v4 coins, the will convert to v5 if they can get *anything* and anything is a small ass number here in Shitcoin.

I figure if you keep the same ideology and fail to see what I see there are only two options:  1.  You fail.  2.  You give up and, very easily could, remove Testnet entirely, which would be terrible sad.  Ramming shit down peoples throat seems to be this chapter of Bitcoin Core.

It's probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in.

I'm trust worthy and I do my job.  There has long since been a theory that people with coins have no vote... I too feel like I have no vote because I need no vote.

God is present.  Not to sound like a nutter, but this thing surges, I've studied worthless testnet for years and it is amazing + so are the users. It is hungry to expand... kill the long term value with a set date far out, don't upgrade this thing weekly, and don't fucking worry about it man, I got this... with or without premined coins, the find there way to me anyways.  Make it not such a big deal and it won't be a big deal... having Testnet debates on how to make it even more shitty (yall did a fine job with v4 rofl) popup in the mailing list for 10-15% of the emails regarding my private company is absurd.

[BayAreaCoins]

[Reserved]

It should be noted, the whole reason I got into cryptocurrency faucets (which evolved) was because I got sick of people "acting" good and really just fucking robbing faucet donors, like myself!!!  

Since I own my faucet, I know the coins go out.  https://altquick.com/faucet/

My faucet maintains Bitcoin for free still frequently, we've only ran out of Bitcoin Testnet v3 a few times (133 v3 in there atm), and we've never ran out of Bitcoin Testnet v4.

This whole bitch is because I do my job and there is a demand in the market... if Bitcoin Core is going to assign anyone as guardian of testnet (with rules), I think I'm a strong potential "treasure".

I still do not think premining Testnet is the right call.  Launch it full POW with an expiration date or even a date to talk about expiring it.  Boom fixed.  



It appears folks have started putting principles aside?   You propose a Testnet seller creates basically a security printed out of thin air by a *centralized source* (decentralized distribution is what kept all this stuff from falling into certain guidelines)... and that source then manipulates the market until they run out and then do it again?!  Lol, that is a *bad* idea good sir.  It could be done better and be a really good think for Bitcoin.  Hopefully if this is done correctly Testnet will kill off some of these terrible shitcoins that weren't even a thought when Bitcoin Testnet was originally created and the old ideologies made sense when Bitcoin was $100.

I'm also curious where anyone could find Bitcoin Testnet coins connect to a crime?  The test Silk Road?!?!  

(Bitcoin devs go after Testnet more than Hospital Extorionist, North Korea, Drugs and child porn combined.).

This is absurd IMO.


I think I have led the most successful test against a Bitcoin Ideology ever demonstrated in real life and not just theory(?). (I don't see what I'm doing as any type of attack, I see what I'm doing as a good thing that helps promote a robust testing environment.)

What a crazy fucking world... all because I want to be free to do what I want with cryptocurrency, help other people, and I don't blindly go along with "Gentlemen agreements" that I never fucking agreed to and nor was I represented.

I'd just like to be left alone and not read about the stupid testnet on the Mailing list.

(I am serious about my application for Guardian Of Degens, the GOD of Testnet!!!!!! [I just came at the thought] lol jk.)

Mod note: Consecutive posts merged

OP note: My bad and thank you

[seoincorporation]

It's a complex topic because it goes against the testnet principles, that's why the community will not be agree with the testnet market, and the main problem is the risk of the holders behind a tesnet depreciation. I mean why don't you open a market for the testnet 1? It was depreciated, maybe that's the reason, and what will happen when the testen 3 gets depreciated? all the users who spend their money on that will lose their investment. Simple as that.

If we start giving a real application to the testnet coins, then we will see soon casinos running with testnet, and some other applications, but there is a reason behind why the big exchanges doesn't include testnet, and that's because the testnet is in a constant transition.

[BayAreaCoins]

It's a complex topic because it goes against the testnet principles, that's why the community will not be agree with the testnet market

I'd say drugs, kid porn and extortion go against lot of peoples principles as well.  Keep that shit out of Testnet with a firm date to depreciate the latest version.  Though, I am curious how bad depreciation actually is... it is worth testing when they have foundations.  IF it is worth nothing, then it will have no people on the bid and the ask will be stacked full.  Eventually the exchange would run out of money, in theory.

Owning an exchange using decentralize cryptocurrency does not go against my principles, so I guess I would say "tough shit". For example of different "principles" that dismiss a "group's" feelings are probably based: China doesn't like Winnie the Pooh and I like that honey-eating bear.  I enjoy helping people get whole Bitcoin Testnet coins and helping the network expand.  Bitcoin is out in lala stock land doing Altstocks to get rich (way worse than Altcoins I'd bet.). Testnet is a great place at the moment.

My private business isn't a democracy for the community to approve what we do on the blockchain IMO.  I think communities should vote with their feet.

It was depreciated, maybe that's the reason, and what will happen when the testen 3 gets depreciated? all the users who spend their money on that will lose their investment. Simple as that.  

It isn't that simple.  Bitcoin Testnet 3 is trading for over 10x Bitcoin Testnet 4 at the time of this post.  That is *insane* to me.

Bitcoin Testnet is actually being used by people who don't care, it is really a crazy thing to see.  In terms of "Bitcoin" just being a title of the most valuable (kinda), Bitcoin Testnet v3 is real and v4 is just a worthless shit fork rejected by a large part of the community.  Perhaps Testnet is opposite and the "winner" is the one with less value, but I doubt it... it doesn't work like that for anything else in the world I'm aware of.

Bitcoin Core really fucked v4 up and gave people a free ticket to beat out honest miners with a "smart" 20min + 1 second Windows 98 machine.

This "punishment" actually has further grown v3 people because they are mining v4... dumping them and buying V3. LOL *shrugs* it is wild.

Opnet.org and yala.org are both using v3 for the public and they have a ton of asians.

Citrea (the startup mentioned in the OP_Return stuff) is using v4 for the public to test them.

I think OPNet does everything Citrea wants to do and there is no BIP required for OPNet.  (research this on your own, I'm not for sure, I can't keep up with all the projects I hear about) Edit: AChow response "There isn't a BIP; this isn't a BIP-able change."

If we start giving a real application to the testnet coins, then we will see soon casinos running with testnet, and some other applications, but there is a reason behind why the big exchanges doesn't include testnet, and that's because the testnet is in a constant transition.

People should gamble their testnet to practice + evaluate if the website is provably fair in "action".  It's a great way to see how a website handles deposits and withdrawals as well.  (I see this *all* the time.*)

So what. People get a chance to see how it feels to gamble with something that will lead them to Bitcoin?  Casinos dump coins + give them away spreading the network and being large is a good thing, not a bad thing.

The misconception years ago was 0.00001 TBTC was more than enough to dust, but as https://citrea.xyz/bridge shows, having a few coins on hand isn't a bad thing for research.  Testnet has and is evolving remarkably fast.  There are many other examples, but that's the hot startup of the week in public testing.

Everyone testing Citrea at scale will dump for anything when they are done because getting $50 is a nice lunch.  The person that buys them hopefully has big plans for them and the process repeats, hopefully with no long-term hopes.

Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman's agreement to not trade testnet coins for money

1.  I don't think there are any problems.  Bitcoin Testnet being large is a feature.  Testnet is larger than it has ever been.  Being this large has resulted in "bugs" being found and all types of benefits.

2.  I never made any agreement.  Nor was I represented in any agreement.  

3.  Bitcoin Testnet isn't traded for "money" it is traded for Bitcoin.  Bitcoin is not money.  Lots of people argue that Bitcoin is worthless, so two worthless imaginary internet coins trading against each other isn't that flabbergasting.  

there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrency where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool.

I agree.

As I said in a email, DOGE had a 1 billion coin per day block reward for 50 days at the start and it still traded against Bitcoin! (god lol)

This also resolves the 'actual developers can't get coins problem' and if someone starts trading tnbct for money

This actually was never a problem.  Our faucet never ran out of Testnet coins for long and still has v3/v4 coins available.

What happened was that I allowed users to deposit money from other Testnet faucets directly into their exchange account.  This gave them easy access to drain competitors.

Thus far, I have stopped those direct deposits from being made into our exchange by implementing a minimum deposit fee.  After seeing the continued hostility, we will likely discuss removing these features and allowing our users to hit third-party faucets again directly.  Edit:  Users now can enjoy 0 fee deposits on all Testnet coins coming directly to the main AltQuick exchange.  You are welcome to use third-party websites to test our website for free.

Other faucets will run out of coins... we will not.

This is called a sound business plan vs a bunch of group that think they have the "Dev given" right to offer a service non-competitively.  .  

It may just not be possible to prevent degens from trading tn coins for money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some people spend money on ,  there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrency where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool.  But what can't be prevented can at least be turned into a benefit.

Jesus fucking Christ, did you just call me a scammer and then suggest doing the same thing I am doing in the same breath?  . Using my god damn website!!!! LOL.

AChow has >9000 Testnet v3 coins (Source: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5532559.msg65079446#msg65079446).  He could help kill that market and pocket 0.03 BTC with about 5 clicks... Other devs should take these free coins and vote that Testnet has no value by selling them into this stupid market.  

Don't claim that devs are running out, devs are hoarding them for some ungodly fucking reason, and have been for over a decade... Faucets are drying out, people are panicking, and yall have thousands of Testnet v3 sitting around doing nothing!

SELL OR GIVE THEM TO SOMEONE WHO WILL USE THEM.

Instead you want the failure mode to be "if you do trade this for money, most of the profits end up going to support a developer or development, rather than whatever jerk decided to trick people into paying for it".

If you do this, I suspect it won't work out as you've imagined.  Scorched Earth is a two-way war tactic.  It'd be a shame if that market had a 50% trading fee... oopsie there goes half your little "scammer" Dev income!  It reminds me of how Steve Jobs dealt with Andy Miller:  https://youtube.com/shorts/VaY9r25qp5I?si=J1bk9SY0H06CsDae

There is no honor among thieves, and I consider your proposal putting you into that arena.

I have many other tools at my disposal for this.  The way the orders in the books stack, the number of confirmations, the ability to withdraw, and the list keeps running.

I might even freeze the premined account (locks market activity, withdrawals, and any other type of transfer) and demand KYC of any beneficiary... meaning you included.  I need a copy of your driver's license, a bill matching the address on your DL, maybe even a social security card scan, your mom's maiden name, your finger prints, and finally... maybe a picture of a shoe on your head!  This may be required for *every* Bitcoin Core developer who is going to be receiving coins and/or has access to these massive, questionable Github changes.

Then wait for a lawsuit so I can use Requests for Admissions or Interrogatories... which would be very interesting.  

I swear to god, if I end up having to wake up at 8am for court involving fucking Testnet... you are going to be dealing with one fiercely pissed off individual!

solution is just another reset.

Don't tease me with good time!!!

Testnet v5 - Normal POW with a set expiration date for Testnet 6.  Premine it and make some dev coins, but don't be a dick about it or I'll fuck you six ways from Sunday.

We can do Testnet v6 whenever Testnet 5 starts trading... LoL!!!!!!!  Shit, I don't even think I have to launch a market any more for speculators to be interested in a new version.  

Many already consider me a Guardian of Testnet... I enjoy it and I like taking care of the community.


I should have posted these stats yesterday, I figure I'm just talking in an echo chamber here anyway:

Testnet 3:

Withdraw Total:
2,271,980.90210673
Deposit Total:
2,424,359.41251680

https://blockstream.info/testnet/address/tb1qm6juaswhsmdl4w4ezj7lqx5c6xdz7ct99weumg

Testnet 4

Withdraw Total:
532,164.49514341
Deposit Total:
991,304.96879779

https://mempool.space/testnet4/address/tb1qf6yq8r42p3dpmpn7nxexhm628uduj7spm0skmc

Mod note: Consecutive posts merged

OP note: My bad and thank you

Proof of Work puzzle in testnet4: https://mempool.space/testnet4/tx/cc159432ffb7a166abeccc79800e9616a09ea9ac6937080c2ca37b38671970e5

I noticed the puzzle you are promoting are coins that were bought from my exchange.  Even the left over coins in the puzzle transaction are sent back to the exchange directly in that transaction.  

That makes me really happy.

I don't see how someone can think what I'm helping facilitate is a bad thing.

Unsurprisingly, it's one of the leading commentators on the Bitcoin Mailing list and they are day trading testnet coins... lol *facepalms*

Garlo Nicon

I noticed the puzzle you are promoting

Note that I don't know the solution upfront. It is a Proof-of-Work-based puzzle, where you have to mine the solution, by producing smaller and smaller signatures. Which means, that I cannot just sweep all coins, by importing some kind of wallet: if I would want to take any coins out of it, I would have to prepare some transaction, and then run a miner, which will grind signatures, until it will find some match.

Garlo Nicon

Of course. I got these coins from him, and I sent them back to him. Maybe he gave me some address from your exchange?

[stwenhao]

I don't have to discuss my exact intents and write it out in code

I guess you misunderstood, how premine is usually created. It is made by developers, who release a given altcoin, and they pre-allocate some coins in their source code.

Which means, that there is no "special group", where you "request" to be the owner of the premined coins. You simply start a new network, and put your public key in the source code, which you share with people.

So, why do you want to wait for "official testnet", when you can just release your own token, without asking anyone? If the only thing you need, is to have someone's approval, then you can use signet as well, because it is also centrally managed, and why one kind of centralization would be better than the other? Because obviously, premine will make the whole network more centrally controlled, than it would be without such thing.

Also note, that you don't have to write any special code for your magic network: if you start a new signet node, and put some challenge, which would accept any blocks, without requiring any signature, then you would reach very similar outcome to existing testnets. And because initial difficulty for signet is quite low, then you can just "ninja-mine" the chain (as Garlo Nicon described on the mailing list), and then you will have your "premine".

So, if you want to turn off signatures for signet, then just run it with OP_TRUE, and you will have your own testnet.

Of course, you can always open some Pull Request, where you submit your proposal for testnet5 in GitHub, but I wonder, why would you need to put it specifically under Bitcoin Core, where their goal is to make it worthless? As you can see, testnet4 is worth less than testnet3, and testnet5 could be traded for even lower values, which would mean success, from the perspective of Core developers. If you want to make your own token, where you earn enough, to pay for your lunch, then you would probably end up in a better position by starting your own chain, which would be designed to be traded instead.

And also, if you want to support exchange between altcoins, then you can bake it into consensus rules, so it would be possible to directly trade from the client. Then, if you have some ASICs, you can mine transactions, made by your users, and have for example makers and takers fees turned into consensus rules. Because as you can easily note, the original Bitcoin doesn't directly support trading, and you cannot use "OP_BUY" or "OP_SELL" in the Script (but you may want to have that in your network).

Because note that if Satoshi would implement trading directly in the client, then centralized exchanges could be made later, or even never, if they won't be needed in such network, where users would just trade directly in a P2P way.

[BayAreaCoins]

I guess you misunderstood, how premine is usually created. It is made by developers, who release a given altcoin, and they pre-allocate some coins in their source code.

Which means, that there is no "special group", where you "request" to be the owner of the premined coins.

 

You simply start a new network, and put your public key in the source code, which you share with people.

I'm really not as stupid as my fingers make me seem (and paid for shit ass Grammery), but I'm not that smart either. It's a good balance IMO I'm often stupid enough to do ____ well).  I'm not interested in starting a new coin atm.

My partner worked on Digibyte (logo, Digishield and other), Dogecoin, and created CLAM.  I think creating coins is lame as fuck.  I'm just a trader who can't make a trade to save his life, so owning a little exchange gives me the confidence the system isn't being gamed + I don't have to trade to win, others do that at any price.

Stop being obsessed with me wanting my own coin.  I don't.  I literally pray every night that another exchange is brave enough to list Testnet on their site too.

I'm ready to close and go do something else.  I'd be happy to send folks on to a better place.  I think it will help Bitcoin, too. You seem intelligent, surely you understand(?).  Kinda like Greg said(ish, I don't get given opportunities, I take them).

I already sold our previous domain FreeBitcoins.com (registered when Bitcoin was .25 each in 2010). (The current owner hasn't even changed off our DNS, which is insane.)

So, why do you want to wait for "official testnet"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rQtjMcrhJY&t

Why do you care?  You are welcome to join our Discord and chat in real time or by voice (anyone can):  https://discord.gg/q7M69yfEgx

I don't think you are confused.  Your emails are pretty good.  I'll be happy to clarify whatever my fingers have fucked up.