Sheets of Keys

[Kazkaz27]

Any interest in these sheets of keys for physical bitcoins?



These sheets are official VIP Bitcoin addresses. Over 1000 individual keys. On the front of the sheets are the QR codes which leads to the public addresses, on the back is the corresponding private key.

[MoparMiningLLC]

there are a million reasons why no one should use these and not a single one why they should even remotely consider it.

[Kazkaz27]

there are a million reasons why no one should use these and not a single one why they should even remotely consider it.

You’re allowed to have your opinion even when it’s a buzzkill.

My keys are legit & trusted.

Thank you.

(I thought an avid collector may like them as a display piece or educational piece, although they can be used and are not compromised in any way currently, they will be sent sealed in a tamper evident manner so they are secured until seal is broken. .)

[MoparMiningLLC]

there are a million reasons why no one should use these and not a single one why they should even remotely consider it.

You’re allowed to have your opinion even when it’s a buzzkill.

My keys are legit & trusted.

Thank you.

my point in saying they should not use them is simple - no one should use another makers keys - only the maker of the keys should. why? because what if the person who accepts your keys uses them on a project but then rips everyone off - who gets blamed? there are now 2 people who are verified as having access to the keys and both can easily point the finger at the other.  another reason - how would you get the keys to them? are you delivering in person? if not, everyone who touches them in shipment potentially also copied them.

However, I was not arguing or stating if your keys are legit or trustworthy in my first post - personally, I would not trust them simply because you think it is ok to do this. The fact that you think this is ok, makes me believe your keys are all at risk and should not be trusted. After all you are ok with using keys or having others use keys that multiple people have viewed.


also it isnt "buzzkill" it is truth and sometimes the truth is hard to swallow.

[Kazkaz27]

Mopar, I think we honestly just had a bit of miscommunication there. I understand what you are saying. By no means do I think that these can or will be used in such shady activities. The reason is that I have the public keys logged, and they can’t truly be used to counterfeit my items. All of my authentic items built by me are being logged. Keys generated by me and sold or given out should not be trusted outside of the second party who receives my keys. These keys will be identifiable because they are logged in another manner, which indicates that a second party had access to the private keys. Therefore, they are responsible for them at that point and should not be trusted. If that makes sense, the point is that these are not to be trusted after they are sold.

Everything I do, I do securely and in a manner that protects my honor and integrity within the community. Many of the things you infer are somewhat angled against me regarding my latest actions of offering a few sheets of keys to collectors. This isn’t as deep or as scary as you have made it out to be. I’ve done everything possible to counteract anything bad coming from this. Your concern is one I’ve already considered, and I have preemptively come up with some safeguards.

[MoparMiningLLC]

not talking about counterfieting - if someone was to use these keys and make their own collectibles - they could rug every one who bought them and blame you because you also saw the keys - when you made them. Or they could use them and you could rug them and then blame them.

No maker should ever use keys that anyone else has generated and/or seen. That is pretty much the first rule when it comes to key making. The only keys a maker should use is the ones THEY themselves generate - never keys from someone else.

And if as you say - the keys should not be trusted after they are sold - you are right. But in that sense - why should anyone buy them if you yourself are saying no one should trust them? hmmm let me buy 1,000 keys that some one else made and potentially saw/kept/recorded and then sold to me while saying no one should trust them...

Their money would be better spent making their own keys.

So, I go back to what I first said - there are a million reasons why these should not be purchased/used these and not a single one why they should purchased/used them.

[bitcoiner24h]

Mopar, I think we honestly just had a bit of miscommunication there. I understand what you are saying. By no means do I think that these can or will be used in such shady activities. The reason is that I have the public keys logged, and they can’t truly be used to counterfeit my items. All of my authentic items built by me are being logged. Keys generated by me and sold or given out should not be trusted outside of the second party who receives my keys. These keys will be identifiable because they are logged in another manner, which indicates that a second party had access to the private keys. Therefore, they are responsible for them at that point and should not be trusted. If that makes sense, the point is that these are not to be trusted after they are sold.

Everything I do, I do securely and in a manner that protects my honor and integrity within the community. Many of the things you infer are somewhat angled against me regarding my latest actions of offering a few sheets of keys to collectors. This isn’t as deep or as scary as you have made it out to be. I’ve done everything possible to counteract anything bad coming from this. Your concern is one I’ve already considered, and I have preemptively come up with some safeguards.

Maybe we can get something valuable out of all this, and that is for you to explain in detail how you generate the private keys: what security measures you apply, what you do with the printing devices... It's not enough to just keep them offline. In my opinion, those devices should be destroyed periodically. In your case, as a manufacturer, you should consider doing this at least once a year as an optimal security measure. The same goes for the machine you use during the process.

Also, I’d like to know: what type of paper do you use? And what kind of ink do you print with? It’s important that the materials are chosen to withstand the passage of time. I hope you take this into account as a manufacturer.

[Kazkaz27]

not talking about counterfieting - if someone was to use these keys and make their own collectibles - they could rug every one who bought them and blame you because you also saw the keys - when you made them. Or they could use them and you could rug them and then blame them.

No maker should ever use keys that anyone else has generated and/or seen. That is pretty much the first rule when it comes to key making. The only keys a maker should use is the ones THEY themselves generate - never keys from someone else.

And if as you say - the keys should not be trusted after they are sold - you are right. But in that sense - why should anyone buy them if you yourself are saying no one should trust them? hmmm let me buy 1,000 keys that some one else made and potentially saw/kept/recorded and then sold to me while saying no one should trust them...

Their money would be better spent making their own keys.

So, I go back to what I first said - there are a million reasons why these should not be purchased/used these and not a single one why they should purchased/used them.

Along side security, Counterfeiting is also a concern here. If someone decided to use these keys they could. They are directly from me, a trusted source of key generation. Keys would be tamper evident sealed assuring they are not revealed during the shipping process. The moment one decided to actually open the seal and use the keys they are no longer just VIP Keys, they are VIP keys owned by whoever, which makes them responsible over them. I would not expect a person to use these keys to make physical bitcoins to re-sell and scam people with. It just wouldn’t work very well (people would see they are using my keys and not generating their own.) These are More for DIY if used like that.

Their are paper Cas Keys floating out there that where never used and listed as so. This is the same.

Also I will give you 100 bucks if you generate keys like that on a sheet of paper🙌😆

[MoparMiningLLC]

not talking about counterfieting - if someone was to use these keys and make their own collectibles - they could rug every one who bought them and blame you because you also saw the keys - when you made them. Or they could use them and you could rug them and then blame them.

No maker should ever use keys that anyone else has generated and/or seen. That is pretty much the first rule when it comes to key making. The only keys a maker should use is the ones THEY themselves generate - never keys from someone else.

And if as you say - the keys should not be trusted after they are sold - you are right. But in that sense - why should anyone buy them if you yourself are saying no one should trust them? hmmm let me buy 1,000 keys that some one else made and potentially saw/kept/recorded and then sold to me while saying no one should trust them...

Their money would be better spent making their own keys.

So, I go back to what I first said - there are a million reasons why these should not be purchased/used these and not a single one why they should purchased/used them.

Along side security, Counterfeiting is also a concern here. If someone decided to use these keys they could. They are directly from me, a trusted source of key generation. Keys would be tamper evident sealed assuring they are not revealed during the shipping process. The moment one decided to actually open the seal and use the keys they are no longer just VIP Keys, they are VIP keys owned by whoever, which makes them responsible over them. I would not expect a person to use these keys to make physical bitcoins to re-sell and scam people with. It just wouldn’t work very well. More for DIY if used like that.

Their are paper Cas Keys floating out there that where never used and listed as so. This is the same.

you are missing the point - whether there are keys out there or not - they should not be used. no one should ever use keys generated by another maker. If you cannot understand that, then you should not be trusted. Plain and simple.

[Kazkaz27]

you are missing the point - whether there are keys out there or not - they should not be used. no one should ever use keys generated by another maker. If you cannot understand that, then you should not be trusted. Plain and simple.

I have not missed your point Mopar. I’m just crossing the line you deem un-crossable. I honestly understand what you are saying. I hear you loud and clear but you have made this a very large concern when in reality these keys will likely never be used for such evil (if they are used by evil that’s not on me.) These keys are to be public knowledge.

Mike Caldwell in a sense did the same.

Maybe we can get something valuable out of all this, and that is for you to explain in detail how you generate the private keys: what security measures you apply, what you do with the printing devices... It's not enough to just keep them offline. In my opinion, those devices should be destroyed periodically. In your case, as a manufacturer, you should consider doing this at least once a year as an optimal security measure. The same goes for the machine you use during the process.

Also, I’d like to know: what type of paper do you use? And what kind of ink do you print with? It’s important that the materials are chosen to withstand the passage of time. I hope you take this into account as a manufacturer.

I like your way of thinking. I have a whole page on my key generating process if you want to check it out. https://physicalbitcoins.vip/our-security Although, I should update it because there are things I could share about the process. But most people would find it all very boring.

I have used and do use a couple key Gens. I primarily have used the vanity generator. Also, I have Mike’s old generator method that has shortened keys but I don’t use it often.  I may in the future..

Everything I do is done offline. The entire key generation process is air gapped. The computer I use is a desktop and it doesn’t even have the ability to be linked to the internet. The component to make it compatible to go online was removed entirely. Everything is also deleted almost immediately after generation except for the list of public keys. Those get logged into an index which I intent to share. I have already started sharing them publicly. The idea is transparency. Everyone will soon be able to see everything I generate. It’s just a time consuming process that I’m chipping away at. I use a laser jet printer so the ink on that is specific to those printers and what’s recommended for printing physical bitcoin keys. I use Terraslate paper, also recommended in this field. If I need to transfer data I use a cleaned usb stick. Its only purpose is to take the list of public keys generated off the offline computer and so I can publicate them. Everything sensitive is wiped before that exchange. It’s a really clean and straightforward process. I automated the whole thing… otherwise making just 1 full sheet would take the entire day.

The computer I am using will be retired and destroyed inevitably in the future. Although doing that on an annual basis is not going to occur. Every 3-5 is more manageable. To be clear I’d love to make it annual but it’s not cost effective for any maker to do so. Nor do I think anyone who ever made physical bitcoins had that restraint regarding how long they can use the computer they use to generate keys…

[MoparMiningLLC]

you are missing the point - whether there are keys out there or not - they should not be used. no one should ever use keys generated by another maker. If you cannot understand that, then you should not be trusted. Plain and simple.

I have not missed your point Mopar. I’m just crossing the line you deem un-crossable. I honestly understand what you are saying. I hear you loud and clear but you have made this a very large concern when in reality these keys will likely never be used for such evil (if they are used by evil that’s not on me.) These keys are to be public knowledge.

Mike Caldwell in a sense did the same.

the fact that you are selling them shows you dont understand the reasons why no maker should sell keys. selling assembled coins where only the maker interacted with the keys is one thing. selling keys to random people is completly different.

So are you are selling these keys with the express meaning for people to NOT use them? Or are you suggesting they should or could use them because they are "safe" and you are "trusted"? 

Also, you and mike caldwell are not the same. You really should not compare yourself or what you do to him.

[Kazkaz27]

you are missing the point - whether there are keys out there or not - they should not be used. no one should ever use keys generated by another maker. If you cannot understand that, then you should not be trusted. Plain and simple.

I have not missed your point Mopar. I’m just crossing the line you deem un-crossable. I honestly understand what you are saying. I hear you loud and clear but you have made this a very large concern when in reality these keys will likely never be used for such evil (if they are used by evil that’s not on me.) These keys are to be public knowledge.

Mike Caldwell in a sense did the same.

the fact that you are selling them shows you dont understand the reasons why no maker should sell keys. selling assembled coins where only the maker interacted with the keys is one thing. selling keys to random people is completly different.

So are you are selling these keys with the express meaning for people to NOT use them? Or are you suggesting they should or could use them because they are "safe" and you are "trusted"?  

Also, you and mike caldwell are not the same. You really should not compare yourself or what you do to him.

I’m am selling them as intended which is not for re-sale. I don’t know why you are confused here. They are good keys, until someone else sees/ has access to them. They can be used by whoever wants them to build their own coins. I don’t recommend them selling those coins after or anyone to trust or buy them because then they are compromised at that point as you have stated. Hence why these are to be public knowledge. A person can not buy these keys and use them as trusted keys for re-sale. Just like no one would trust or use an old unused Cas key.

One thing is clear Mopar we have different opinions and methods. Just to remind you my intentions are pure of heart. I don’t do this to spite you or to harm the community. I offer this purely and with good intentions.

[MoparMiningLLC]

you are missing the point - whether there are keys out there or not - they should not be used. no one should ever use keys generated by another maker. If you cannot understand that, then you should not be trusted. Plain and simple.

I have not missed your point Mopar. I’m just crossing the line you deem un-crossable. I honestly understand what you are saying. I hear you loud and clear but you have made this a very large concern when in reality these keys will likely never be used for such evil (if they are used by evil that’s not on me.) These keys are to be public knowledge.

Mike Caldwell in a sense did the same.

the fact that you are selling them shows you dont understand the reasons why no maker should sell keys. selling assembled coins where only the maker interacted with the keys is one thing. selling keys to random people is completly different.

So are you are selling these keys with the express meaning for people to NOT use them? Or are you suggesting they should or could use them because they are "safe" and you are "trusted"?  

Also, you and mike caldwell are not the same. You really should not compare yourself or what you do to him.

I’m am selling them as intended which is not for re-sale. I don’t know why you are confused here. They are good keys, until someone else sees/ has access to them. They can be used by whoever wants them to build their own coins. I don’t recommend them selling those coins after or anyone to trust or buy them because then they are compromised at that point as you have stated. Hence why these are to be public knowledge. A person can not buy these keys and use them as trusted keys for re-sale. Just like no one would trust or use an old unused Cas key.

One thing is clear Mopar we have different opinions and methods. Just to remind you my intentions are pure of heart. I don’t do this to spite you or to harm the community. I offer this purely and with good intentions.

you are the one confused - no key that has been seen by more than one person is a "good" key. not from you and not from anyone.

opinions matter nothing in this regard.

as a maker - I can state that no one should use keys that were not generated by them. to do so is wrong - and quite frankly any maker who thinks it is ok to use keys generated by someone else needs to be red-flagged and no one should buy a single key'ed item from them. Who knows where their keys are from - who saw them.

once you validated that you think it is ok to use another makers keys - you proved that you are not to be trusted.

[Kazkaz27]

you are the one confused - no key that has been seen by more than one person is a "good" key. not from you and not from anyone.

opinions matter nothing in this regard.

as a maker - I can state that no one should use keys that were not generated by them. to do so is wrong - and quite frankly any maker who thinks it is ok to use keys generated by someone else needs to be red-flagged and no one should buy a single key'ed item from them. Who knows where their keys are from - who saw them.

once you validated that you think it is ok to use another makers keys - you proved that you are not to be trusted.

You keep projecting your opinion in a way that declares it rule/law. I reject it

[2stout]

OP, this just isn't right on so many levels.  While your intent might not be nefarious, my Pops said it best- "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[MoparMiningLLC]

you are the one confused - no key that has been seen by more than one person is a "good" key. not from you and not from anyone.

opinions matter nothing in this regard.

as a maker - I can state that no one should use keys that were not generated by them. to do so is wrong - and quite frankly any maker who thinks it is ok to use keys generated by someone else needs to be red-flagged and no one should buy a single key'ed item from them. Who knows where their keys are from - who saw them.

once you validated that you think it is ok to use another makers keys - you proved that you are not to be trusted.

You keep projecting your opinion in a way that declares it rule/law. I reject it

ok - asking any other makers - should anyone use another makers keys? simple yes or no. and if a maker feels it is ok to use another makers keys - should that maker be trusted? should their coins be trusted?

[bitcoiner24h]

As a matter of principle, one should never use a private key generated by someone else and even less buy or sell one. Generating a PK should be a personal and sovereign process carried out by the user to ensure true security and ownership of their funds.

That said, I have absolutely nothing against Kazkaz27. In fact, I like his art and appreciate his contributions. This doesn't mean his PKs aren't securely generated as he claims. However, selling private keys is not something that should be part of the work of a BTC collectible creator.

To conclude, I don’t think this needs to be blown out of proportion. Kazkaz27 may have good intentions behind all of this and simply made a poor decision by choosing to sell the keys. That doesn’t invalidate his art or his approach to security but by common sense it’s something that doesn’t sit well.

[Kazkaz27]

you are the one confused - no key that has been seen by more than one person is a "good" key. not from you and not from anyone.

opinions matter nothing in this regard.

as a maker - I can state that no one should use keys that were not generated by them. to do so is wrong - and quite frankly any maker who thinks it is ok to use keys generated by someone else needs to be red-flagged and no one should buy a single key'ed item from them. Who knows where their keys are from - who saw them.

once you validated that you think it is ok to use another makers keys - you proved that you are not to be trusted.

You keep projecting your opinion in a way that declares it rule/law. I reject it

ok - asking any other makers - should anyone use another makers keys? simple yes or no. and if a maker feels it is ok to use another makers keys - should that maker be trusted? should their coins be trusted?

That’s not what I’m proposing tho. You keep acting as if I’m saying these keys should be used for re-sale and I’ve specifically stated time and time again that these keys can’t be trusted afterwards/once exposed to a second party.

OP, this just isn't right on so many levels.  While your intent might not be nefarious, my Pops said it best- "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Maybe so, I respect that. I live by many old timers past sayings. Maybe that is true but I stand firm with my decision as a man and as a creator. If everyone here has a bad view regarding these sheets and don’t view them as of any use then disregard them. If you think something nefarious will come of this I’d really like to know how I would be responsible over their actions.

Do you arrest the guy who sells the gun? Or the guy who shoots someone with the gun?

[MoparMiningLLC]

OP, this just isn't right on so many levels.  While your intent might not be nefarious, my Pops said it best- "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Maybe so, I respect that. I live by many old timers past sayings. Maybe that is true but I stand firm with my decision as a man and as a creator. If everyone here has a bad view regarding these sheets and don’t view them as of any use them disregard them. If you think something nefarious will come of this I’d really like to know how it responsible over their actions.

Do you arrest the guy who sells the gun? Or the guy who shoot someone with the gun?

Your analogy does not match this situation. Once the gun is sold, the guy who sold it cannot use it - only the purchaser can.

In the case of keys, the seller and the purchaser could both use the keys since they both had them and could have documented them - then there is no clear way to know who sweeps funds if funds ever get swept. That sole reason is why no one should use any keys made by another maker. In the case of theft of funds, there needs to be a clear line to who had the keys.

Possible scenarios:

Someone uses your keys to make coins - someone buys that coin. They fund it or it comes funded - either way. then one day their funds disappear. who is the one to blame? the maker? or the purchaser? both saw the keys, both could have copies.

Someone who is "more trusted" than you could buy your keys, make coins, fund them, rip every one off and simply blame you. Who would question them?

[Kazkaz27]

OP, this just isn't right on so many levels.  While your intent might not be nefarious, my Pops said it best- "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Maybe so, I respect that. I live by many old timers past sayings. Maybe that is true but I stand firm with my decision as a man and as a creator. If everyone here has a bad view regarding these sheets and don’t view them as of any use them disregard them. If you think something nefarious will come of this I’d really like to know how it responsible over their actions.

Do you arrest the guy who sells the gun? Or the guy who shoot someone with the gun?

Your analogy does not match this situation. Once the gun is sold, the guy who sold it cannot use it - only the purchaser can.

In the case of keys, the seller and the purchaser could both use the keys since they both had them and could have documented them - then there is no clear way to know who sweeps funds if funds ever get swept. That sole reason is why no one should use any keys made by another maker. In the case of theft of funds, there needs to be a clear line to who had the keys.

Possible scenarios:

Someone uses your keys to make coins - someone buys that coin. They fund it or it comes funded - either way. then one day their funds disappear. who is the one to blame? the maker? or the purchaser? both saw the keys, both could have copies.

Someone who is "more trusted" than you could buy your keys, make coins, fund them, rip every one off and simply blame you. Who would question them?

To clear things up, my position on these sheets is that they are not to be used for resale. Hence why they will be indexed in a manner that indicates that these keys were keys that may have been exposed to several parties. They are only good keys for that intent.

Good for - Educational purposes
Good for - purely collectable
Good for - (second party only)

Not good for - Re- sale
Not good for - 3 parties, etc.

To be clear Mike Caldwell in some sense did this. So if you have a problem with me doing this you have a problem with the creator. Example of Mikes sold and exposed keys marked as Unused: http://casascius.uberbills.com/



Unlike Mike my exposed and sold keys will be more stated and clear. If I was gonna run a scam using physical bitcoins because that seems to be the way of thinking around here I wouldn’t use VIP keys. I’d use Cas.

However you may view Cas’s “un-Used” keys is how these sheets can/should be viewed. That doesn’t take away from the coins Mike Built himself.