Merit source rework

[Vod]

I have spoken to the admin multiple times and he is currently not considering requests until the merit system is reworked

Quote link removed because further discussion is impossible in that thread - it is locked.  If Theymos is re-working the merit system, shouldn't the community be involved?    We can get rid of all these application threads, remove all bias and increase proper merit distribution.

The trust system is centralized - Theymos chooses the private lottery requirements.  The merit system needs to be decentralized for balance.   We should use this thread to discuss merit system replacements.   If Theymos is going to change his personal and private requirements, we'll just wind up with another system that scratches the back of the one who scratches you.

I've suggested that smerit automatically be distributed based on activity.   The higher ranked, more active members would get more smerit than the lower ranks; this does not duplicate the activity value, as that is beneficial to the giver, while smerit is beneficial only to the receiver.   I have no ideas about the formula needed - that can be discussed - but I do believe the merit system (and trust system) should be documented like the ranks, signatures, badges, posting requirements and avatars are.   i.e.  The lottery is based on this and this, all publicly verifiable via blockchain.  You receive xx smerits per day/week based on this formulas, etc.

If Theymos designs another closed/centralized system after his last couple screw ups, as a community we'll need to address that.    Merit is required to advance and make money in this environment paid for by members like me.  If he wants to restrict earnings to his friends only, he should announce that, or make the rules open and fair.   Every CEO in the world would be investigated for wasting a billion US dollars.  :/

How would you like to see the merit system reworked?  Make distribution fair, remove merit requirements for level up, modify smerit > merit calculation?    Write now or don't complain if you don't like the new system.

[Perfectbaby]

How would you like to see the merit system reworked?  Make distribution fair, remove merit requirements for level up, modify smerit > merit calculation?    Write now or don't complain if you don't like the new system.

Actually I a bit speechless about this post because to me it seems that the reason why theymos implemented the meritocracy is no longer doing it purpose, knowing too well that it is implemented to improve post quality and shift away those who create Spam posts or even shit post from the forum. But, wait a moment! If Theymos reversed the merits system or make some implementation according to how you said, don't you think that the merit system is defeated?

And of course, it's entirely useless to implement any further things knowing too well that the meritocracy was implemented to wipe away lazy people who aren't that smart enough to improve on their post quality to earn merits.

From what I have just seen above, Theymos just made little update by removing those who felt so entitled of the merits source and add those who where more active to distribute Merits to those who mostly needed it than leaving it in the hands of those who wouldn't be that active to the community to help out those who needs it.

Please, I am not in any way disputing your suggestions but I just gave my honest review and overview towards this, so I didn't say anyone should make me their personal enemy or even redtag me for dispute what they had suggested on the forum, like I know, the forum is a free place for people to give their opinion and general contributions.

[Vod]

Please, I am not in any way disputing your suggestions but I just gave my honest review and overview towards this, so I didn't say anyone should make me their personal enemy or even redtag me for dispute what they had suggested on the forum, like I know, the forum is a free place for people to give their opinion and general contributions.

No one should red tag anybody for making any suggestion.     I could suggest I get all the smerit - doesn't mean you risk losing money with me; I'm just lazy!

[Findingnemo]

I agree with one thing here, the merit system is not fair to everyone. I've seen users get more merits than someone who makes threads and replies that bring some educational value for others to learn something from here. People create posts just to impress certain users by copying their style or what they usually reward the posts with some merits, or just try to fit into a certain group of users by constantly engaging with them in one or another to get backscratched, just like the Trust system.

But what's the alternative? Giving sMerits to everyone will not make it any better, but will just become worse, just like what happened in 2017. People will just focus on the number of posts created to increase the activity, which will make the quality obsolete again.

If theymos is working to make further changes in the merit system, can run a poll or something to know what it is in their mind but again it will not be much helpful cause we can say whatever things that comes to our mind that all can't be combined into one and make it a perfect system. We got merit system and it eliminated the spam for sure and one who need to earn merit now need to make an effort for it so in that way it is not a screw up.

[LoyceV]

I've suggested that smerit automatically be distributed based on activity.   The higher ranked, more active members would get more smerit than the lower ranks; this does not duplicate the activity value, as that is beneficial to the giver, while smerit is beneficial only to the receiver.   I have no ideas about the formula needed - that can be discussed

The Merit system was introduced to reduce spam, including spam from account farmers. What you're proposing would give account farmers all the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming, and I don't think anyone wants to go back there.

How would you like to see the merit system reworked?

If the new system is better, sure! But I wouldn't know how to improve it.

Make distribution fair, remove merit requirements for level up

Define "fair": equal opportunity or equal outcomes? It's intentional that not everyone can rank up anymore, and I don't think we should change that.

[The Cryptovator]

I believe the merit system is fine, but merit distribution isn't fair. A lot of replies are ignored from getting merits. General users aren't very interested in spending their merits properly. Only merit sources aren't enough to keep fair merit distribution at all. So I think the systems should be improved, though I don't agree fully with Vod. We somehow need to increase merit circulation. It's become very hard to rank up for new users unless he is a scam buster or something similar.

I am not sure how to improve it, but I have an idea. Currently, if we send merits to someone, he is able to send them to others, but the ratio is 1:0.5. This means there is a system loss of 0.5 merits. We can improve it to inspire the merit sender. Let's say I send 1 merit to Vod, so Vod will have 0.5 spendable merits. The rest of the 0.5 spendable merits should be added to my account. So I will be more interested to spend my merits. Because when I am sending merits to someone, I also am benefitting from it. That's how the merit ratio will be the same; source merits shouldn't be considered for getting back. Only earned merits should work this way.

[Vod]

The Merit system was introduced to reduce spam, including spam from account farmers. What you're proposing would give account farmers all the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming, and I don't think anyone wants to go back there.

What if the community decides Legendary members get sMerit based on recent six month activity?  How does that give account farmers the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming?     No one wants to go back there, but we need an overhaul.  Suggest something.

I believe the merit system is fine, but merit distribution isn't fair.

Your suggestion does not address that - you suggest change to already distributed smerit.

But what's the alternative? Giving sMerits to everyone will not make it any better, but will just become worse, just like what happened in 2017.

Not what I wrote but good for 6 merit!  

[Perfectbaby]

Please, I am not in any way disputing your suggestions but I just gave my honest review and overview towards this, so I didn't say anyone should make me their personal enemy or even redtag me for dispute what they had suggested on the forum, like I know, the forum is a free place for people to give their opinion and general contributions.

No one should red tag anybody for making any suggestion.     I could suggest I get all the smerit - doesn't mean you risk losing money with me; I'm just lazy!

Yes that is right and of course I wouldn't lose anything for making my own points.

The Merit system was introduced to reduce spam, including spam from account farmers. What you're proposing would give account farmers all the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming, and I don't think anyone wants to go back there.

What if the community decides Legendary members get sMerit based on recent six month activity?  How does that give account farmers the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming?     No one wants to go back there, but we need an overhaul.  Suggest something.

I believe the merit system is fine, but merit distribution isn't fair.

Your suggestion does not address that - you suggest change to already distributed smerit.

Well, to me I don't think this also changes anything here. For example, someone could be active for 6 months or 1 years that doesn't means that such person has improved in their post quality or add any meaningful contribution to the forum but what? Ended up being a bunch of spammer and at the end Smerits are credited to their profile for being active right? What does this count to you encouraging what the forum are still fighting to eliminate or what? Sincerely, the system is enough and anyone who is that active and creative would definitely earn merits to get to the next rank that is all.

[mikeywith]

What if the community decides Legendary members get sMerit based on recent six month activity?  

Having more activity doesn’t necessarily make you better or more worthy of sMerit than someone with less -- it just means you have more free time to spend on the forum, so I think that is a bad idea.

One thing I think should definitely change is the total amount of merit you can send to a single user. If we limit it to, say, 10 merit per person, it would encourage us to seek out and reward a wider range of posters. Right now, it feels like most members give the majority of their merit to the same few users, which is understandable, but it limits merit distribution. That’s something we should work on.

Other than that, I think the merit system overall is pretty solid. The trust system, on the other hand, is a mess.

[BitMaxz]

The Merit system was introduced to reduce spam, including spam from account farmers. What you're proposing would give account farmers all the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming, and I don't think anyone wants to go back there.

What if the community decides Legendary members get sMerit based on recent six month activity?  How does that give account farmers the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming?     No one wants to go back there, but we need an overhaul.  Suggest something.

I agree Theymos should test something different like this one because what I see these days is smerit distribution isn't fair. I saw many helpful posts, but they ignore them(Bias is real).

About spamming, it's already reduced after the merit system was introduced, but the distribution of merit seems based on bias or favoritism.

Why not try this for, I think, 6 months or 3? Let's see how spammers would be able to spam.
And honestly, what's the purpose of the report button if the whole forum is totally clean from spamming?

[Despairo]

If merit exist to fight against spammer, why not the distribution came from reports? a good report will add 5 smerit, a bad report will reduce 5 smerit, and an unhandled report will affect nothing.

this does not duplicate the activity value, as that is beneficial to the giver, while smerit is beneficial only to the receiver.

The smerit given by merit sources is also beneficial to the merit sources itself, it's a law of attraction bro.

One thing I think should definitely change is the total amount of merit you can send to a single user. If we limit it to, say, 10 merit per person, it would encourage us to seek out and reward a wider range of posters. Right now, it feels like most members give the majority of their merit to the same few users, which is understandable, but it limits merit distribution. That’s something we should work on.

I like this one, we need a policy where users (especially merit sources) give merit to widely users, not only for few specific users. Even though those users might won't change their habit, but at least this would reduce the gap.

[nutildah]

If merit exist to fight against spammer, why not the distribution came from reports? a good report will add 5 smerit, a bad report will reduce 5 smerit, and an unhandled report will affect nothing.

Because such a feature will immediately be gamed by account farms that will write posts specifically knowing they will be reported and deleted by their other accounts in the farm. For example, Farm Account #1 writes a 4-word shitpost and Farm Accounts #2-#10 all report the post. We already have accounts that open threads ratting out their other accounts in a lame attempt to get merits.

[LoyceV]

What if the community decides Legendary members get sMerit based on recent six month activity?  How does that give account farmers the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming?

There are many old farmed Legendary accounts with no or barely any earned Merits. They're shitposters, and they shouldn't be able to rank up other shitposters.

we need an overhaul.  Suggest something.

Maybe your idea could work if the forum wipes out all airdropped Merits. That way there are no Legendary shitposters anymore, and one could argue anyone has had enough time earn enough Merit to reach their pre-Merit rank again.

I believe the merit system is fine, but merit distribution isn't fair.

Your quote makes it look as if I wrote this. I didn't.

Let's say I send 1 merit to Vod, so Vod will have 0.5 spendable merits. The rest of the 0.5 spendable merits should be added to my account. So I will be more interested to spend my merits.

If 1 sent Merit produces one new sMerit, there's endless sMerit to be produced! Vod sends 1 back to you, and each of you have 1 brand new sMerit. Repeat until you hit the maximum of 50 per month. Do that with 20 users, and you'll all earn 1000 Merits in a month while all you needed was 1 sMerit per user.

If we limit it to, say, 10 merit per person, it would encourage us to seek out and reward a wider range of posters.

I'd never be able to empty my source that way. I don't read enough posts to find 80 users per month that deserve 10 Merits. It would also make it impossible to dump a lot of Merit on a low-ranking user who deserves it.

Right now, it feels like most members give the majority of their merit to the same few users, which is understandable, but it limits merit distribution. That’s something we should work on.

To Merit more different users, I'd have to read more posts in topics I'm not interested in, which I'm not going to do.
What if "the same few users" have better posts than the users who now receive less Merit? I'd say that's how the Merit system is supposed to work.

I like this one, we need a policy where users (especially merit sources) give merit to widely users, not only for few specific users. Even though those users might won't change their habit, but at least this would reduce the gap.

I'd say the solution is in having Merit sources that visit different boards, instead of expecting existing Merit sources to visit other boards. I think the recent changes in Merit sources added a few local board users.

[ABCbits]

How would you like to see the merit system reworked?

I've stated this idea few times, but I'd like to see signature only shown if that user received X merit in last Y days. I don't know appropriate value for X and Y, but i expect it could somewhat reduce spam.

we need an overhaul.  Suggest something.

Maybe your idea could work if the forum wipes out all airdropped Merits. That way there are no Legendary shitposters anymore, and one could argue anyone has had enough time earn enough Merit to reach their pre-Merit rank again.

I can see benefit of this idea. But if this idea become reality, i would allocate some sMerit for few remarkable member on their good post/thread who was active in past.

[LoyceV]

I'd like to see signature only shown if that user received X merit in last Y days. I don't know appropriate value for X and Y, but i expect it could somewhat reduce spam.

Let's make it 5 Merit in 120 days, which is what some campaign managers ask as a minimum to apply. That suddenly makes those 5 Merits worth 17 weeks of campaign payments. This will lead to Merit abuse.

[virasog]

I was wondering why all of a sudden we have too much merit topic discussion right after theymos introduced some new people in the merit sources. Adding new sources means that there is no merit rework in his mind, at least at this moment. 

From what I have just seen above, Theymos just made little update by removing those who felt so entitled of the merits source and add those who where more active to distribute Merits to those who mostly needed it than leaving it in the hands of those who wouldn't be that active to the community to help out those who needs it.

If you see the merit source applications and those who are awarded the merit sources are mostly from the local boards and they would mostly be supporting their community after getting smerits. For those posters, who aren't active in their local thread, they will still face difficulties getting merits as compared to the local board members. I believe that's one shortcoming of the merit system.

[UmerIdrees]

I'd like to see signature only shown if that user received X merit in last Y days. I don't know appropriate value for X and Y, but i expect it could somewhat reduce spam.

Let's make it 5 Merit in 120 days, which is what some campaign managers ask as a minimum to apply. That suddenly makes those 5 Merits worth 17 weeks of campaign payments. This will lead to Merit abuse.

I don't think you will be selected in any good campaign if you have earned only five merits in the last 120 days as the competition is quite tough out there. So practically having five merits doesn't let you in any campaign, although campaign managers do have a condition of a minimum of 5 (or 10 in some cases) merits to apply for a campaign.

[ABCbits]

I'd like to see signature only shown if that user received X merit in last Y days. I don't know appropriate value for X and Y, but i expect it could somewhat reduce spam.

Let's make it 5 Merit in 120 days, which is what some campaign managers ask as a minimum to apply. That suddenly makes those 5 Merits worth 17 weeks of campaign payments.

Aside from what @UmerIdrees said, it's likely campaign manager will choose someone else that have better recent post quality or at least receive more merit in past X days.

This will lead to Merit abuse.

You're right, there's always trade-off of any changes on merit system.

[Amphenomenon]

Why not try this for, I think, 6 months or 3? Let's see how spammers would be able to spam.
And honestly, what's the purpose of the report button if the whole forum is totally clean from spamming?

I believe this will be a mess being an active Legendary member doesn't make one fair or trustworthy, we have seen past experience, humans are humans.

While the current merit system still has it flaws, I don't think any of the solution here would be a better choice, the merit bias Isn't fair but putting this on only set of individuals seems like not being different from centralization.

You're right, there's always trade-off of any changes on merit system.

Yea, this isn't changing anything for the better either. I think the best is still the current one since it's possible to catch merit abusers here and it more likely has a lesser rate of abusing than these alternatives here.

[Xiestar]

I've suggested that smerit automatically be distributed based on activity.   The higher ranked, more active members would get more smerit than the lower ranks; this does not duplicate the activity value, as that is beneficial to the giver, while smerit is beneficial only to the receiver.   I have no ideas about the formula needed - that can be discussed

The Merit system was introduced to reduce spam, including spam from account farmers. What you're proposing would give account farmers all the sMerit they need to rank up by spamming, and I don't think anyone wants to go back there.

How sure you are that account is already stopped? This merit requirements just make the account farming exclusive for those who have the merit source.

Try to look on local board and see for yourself the reality. A newbie posting few months of merit begging on local board and merit source thread then go straight on signature campaign application once they gain enough merit is very common on local board like Nigeria, Indonesia, Turkey and more.

Account farming only becomes exclusive but not stopped. The clear result is it removes the casual forum user that doesn’t do a wall post just to beg for merit. Currently, discussion in the forum is less organic probably because only less people organically controlling each account.

I’m sure most of this alt farms is controlled by some established member here due to the nature of their constructive post immediately as newbie just to gain merit quickly since they knew the sweet spot of merit source.


This user is an example for potential merit farming: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=3357535

This user failed to join on multiple campaign before March 8 until he received of multiple merit on his generic post.

Amazing right? This is one of the example of alt farming becomes exclusive only to user with connection to merit source.

I like the idea of giving smerit to all user on random count. I mean what the heck is your problem with that?

Campaign manager should do their job to check the post quality instead of relying on merit count for fuck sake if signature campaign is the reason for this gate keeping Lord @LoyceV.


Shout out to @Hhampuz, Your Rollbit campaign is the popular destination of merit farmer. Try to check most of your campaign member post history and the way they get merit.