The “Want Everything, Pay Nothing” Problem

[slapper]

I wonder if we are all trapped in the same game. We want more help from our governments, but we do not want to pay higher taxes. We want good schools, healthcare, safe streets, but also lower bills. I am just as guilty. I like cheap services and extra support too. Who doesn't?

But after reading more about the global economy as a new hobby of mine, I see a problem. The richest countries are spending and borrowing like never before, even when things are calm. For example, countries like the US, UK, Japan, they all owe more than their entire yearly income (Japan owes double!). But nobody seems to care much. We keep getting tax breaks, handouts, help from the government. Governments keep borrowing money to make us happy. It feels good, but deep down, I know it is not free. And interest payments alone are as big as military budgets

Half of all this debt comes due soon, in just a few years. If interest rates go up more, there is no easy way out. The system works only if people trust it. If that trust breaks (through a political fight or money crisis, ANYTHING) everything can change overnight

People just want more services, but not higher taxes or less help. Politicians promise both, and then just borrow more. In my own life, I benefit from this too: cheaper healthcare, more support, but I know someone will pay for this later. Maybe our children

Is it fair to leave this bill to our kids, just so we can have comfort now? I do not have a perfect answer


Wonderful visualization from visualcapitalist

[Churchillvv]

Apart from tax payers money is there no other ways government generate revenue? My country is rich in mineral resources which is basically enough to hand most of the government budgets of every year without tax payers money.

So I ask do we still need to pay more tax to get what the people deserve? it might be very different in every one's country but yet for a country like the US with about 37T trillion in debt and still find a way to sponsor wars in other countries wouldn't that be budget to satisfy the desires of the tax payers than take more debts and make them pay more just to use it to sponsor criminal groups like Isis, bokoharam of Nigeria and other internal was of different countries through the so called IMF funds?

If we make a rational thought about tax payers money and how it is controlled it's nothing more than a device to keep the poor being poor, because obviously that's what the debts are meant to do, as long as you earn bigger you pay bigger making you remain in the same cycle so I do not agree that the people want more but don't want to pay more because indirectly we already pay more than we request of the government!

[davis196]

The debts would keep growing until the global financial system collapses. This is inevitable. The global economy is addicted to debt. The governments are addicted to debt. If suddenly all governments start increasing taxes, cutting government spending and achieving budget surplus, the nations would become very unhappy and this might lead to social tensions. The global GDP might also shrink.
There's still room for growing even bigger debts. The US dollar would also get devalued because of the tremendous debts. This means that paying off debts with a less valuable currency would be easier, but the problem remains.

[mindrust]

Most of us are victims to this well known phenomenon.

Gamblers, traders, business owners, white/blue collar workers, housewives…

We all share one thing in common:

We all want something for nothing.

It is not just greed. Greed can be kept under control. This, this cannot.

Everybody wants to live like a king and pay nothing but the resources are limited. Somebody has to pay for it. Poor wageslaves do. How sad. 

[icebar]

To change this entire system, we must first change our own attitude. If we do not change our attitude, no change in the system is possible. If we do not support the government, how can the government help us? The source of government income is the common people. The common people are not interested in paying more taxes and want more opportunities. To fulfill such demands, the government has no choice but to lend money from another country.



The governments of the country are also busy providing benefits to the voters. They do not consider borrowing a burden. They think that the country will continue to run like this. They do not consider it a problem. That is why some countries are collecting a large part of their budget through borrowing.

Even if such a situation does not have an effect in the short term, it will create problems in the long term. If a loan is taken, that loan must be repaid. Therefore, it should not be considered normal. Governments can run the country by presenting their real situation to the public without doing politics of getting votes and if they are able to do it through their own income then that country will definitely move forward. Those who depend on loans will definitely be at risk. Their economy can collapse at any time.

[Frankolala]

What you should ask yourself is that, are things getting better even with the debt that your country is taking in order to keep the country going. Even if all the citizens pay high tax, will inflation stop. If it wouldn't, but keep on increasing overtime, there is no need to pay higher tax because when inflation hits, you will barely survive with your monthly income. The whole system is fucked up with printing more money and mismanagement of public funds.

[WillyAp]

Yes buuuuut the service provider need to reasonable.
Why does the state needs 100 000 Administrators, in times where digital could really work, look and compare with the Baltic.
They have a neatly set up systems and it works.

[Agbe]

Is it fair to leave this bill to our kids, just so we can have comfort now? I do not have a perfect answer


Wonderful visualization from visualcapitalist

This is a very important question that you asked because with the way and manner that government all over the world borrows especially from the African continent it gives me cause for concern because we should not forget that what ever action that we are taking has consequences some of these loans we are taking it will take our second generation to pay so governments all over the world should come up with plans on how to reduce the way that they owe because politics is one thing that is not giving attention to how the next generation will handle it what politicians are concerned about is they can get to office, we are leaving a great border for our children to come which is not a good thing to do through loans that the current generation is taking

[coin-investor]

I wonder if we are all trapped in the same game. We want more help from our governments, but we do not want to pay higher taxes. We want good schools, healthcare, safe streets, but also lower bills. I am just as guilty. I like cheap services and extra support too. Who doesn't?

It’s different here in our country; we’re overtaxed, yet the government fails to provide decent service. Part of our taxes end up in the pockets of our politicians, and there are no checks and balances or accountability.

Our people have been burdened by numerous taxes, mainly due to our internal and external debt, and these taxes have been imposed on almost everything. This is the sad reality of living in a third-world country: you are paying a lot of taxes, and yet you lack better services from the government.

[Bitcoin Smith]

If every government in this world is in debt, then it brings me a question that who hands out money to them?

And governments too focus on satisfying the people in the short term because there will be a next election so they just prepare themselves to get elected again while ignoring the root causes. And there is no escape from the debt too because of the money system that just lose value over the period so even if we pay more the debt will just keep increasing more.

One must take a brave step that I am going to focus on the betterment of people in the next few decades, even if the people who are under the rule will hate those policies.

[libert19]

Is it fair to leave this bill to our kids, just so we can have comfort now? I do not have a perfect answer

I never understood why people have kids tbh, it's lifetime of maintenance and subjecting kids to life's randomness (maybe reading Schopenhaur has given me this mindset — but I did find his reasoning logical).

[Coyster]

I don't understand what you are talking about, you want me to pity the government and give them all of the money i earn. The government gets revenue from different sources. My country is rich in natural resources, but the government prefers to embezzle revenue from these sources and to use it for their own benefit. Rather than cut down expenditure on government officials, they rather cut down spending on public infrastructure and impoverish the people.

That said, i don't know where you live, but where i live, the government wants everything for themselves, whilst they give nothing back to the ordinary people.

[BIT-BENDER]

Apart from tax payers money is there no other ways government generate revenue? My country is rich in mineral resources which is basically enough to hand most of the government budgets of every year without tax payers money.

Aside from tax government makes money from tourism, investment, trades government owned company and so much more, but in developing countries government makes good sum of money through tax.

A country that has so much opportunities for their occupants and has a functional ecosystem feels the occupants owe them a huge gratitude and this gratitude are collected through tax, but this tax can be so ridiculous that at the end of the day the occupants have nothing much saved up.

[d5000]

The richest countries are spending and borrowing like never before, even when things are calm.

This is only true if you take absolute numbers.

Debt rates in comparison to the countries' GDP (in real terms, not nominal terms) are stagnating or sinking in most cases. Most of the recent increase of spending/borrowing can be explained by COVID, and since then the debt rates as percentage of GDP have lowered.

Some examples (2020/2021 to 2024):

- Euro Area: 97% to 87%
- Japan: 225% to 216%
- US: 130% to 125%
- Brazil: 85% to 76%
- India: 58% to 56%

The most significant outlier is China where public debt grew, but on a very low level (20% to 26%).

(Sources: Statista and Ceicdata.)

I don't say that the current debt level is healthy. I'd always opt for a small but gradual debt decrease policy in "good times". But Japan shows you can live highly indebted for decades. So I don't see any collapse in the near future. It's something Bitcoiners seem to like to overdramatize to promote BTC to "fix it" (even Satoshi in some ways did that in his famous on-chain message). But I think Bitcoin doesn't need a financial collapse to thrive, it can thrive even if fiat is doing well for decades more.

[philipma1957]

Apart from tax payers money is there no other ways government generate revenue? My country is rich in mineral resources which is basically enough to hand most of the government budgets of every year without tax payers money.

So I ask do we still need to pay more tax to get what the people deserve? it might be very different in every one's country but yet for a country like the US with about 37T trillion in debt and still find a way to sponsor wars in other countries wouldn't that be budget to satisfy the desires of the tax payers than take more debts and make them pay more just to use it to sponsor criminal groups like Isis, bokoharam of Nigeria and other internal was of different countries through the so called IMF funds?

If we make a rational thought about tax payers money and how it is controlled it's nothing more than a device to keep the poor being poor, because obviously that's what the debts are meant to do, as long as you earn bigger you pay bigger making you remain in the same cycle so I do not agree that the people want more but don't want to pay more because indirectly we already pay more than we request of the government!

It is not designed to keep the poor poor.

It is designed to protect the rich and keep the rich rich.


The rich know that limiting the amount of people in the rich club helps the rich stay rich.

To the rich the poor are toilet paper use them and flush them down the drain when you are done with them.

[Churchillvv]

~~ ~~

It is not designed to keep the poor poor.

It is designed to protect the rich and keep the rich rich.


The rich know that limiting the amount of people in the rich club helps the rich stay rich.

To the rich the poor are toilet paper use them and flush them down the drain when you are done with them.

From my point of view seems we are still saying same thing here, because what is meant to keep the rich rich is equally meant to keep the poor poor. I might also view it from a different perspective maybe that's where you are looking at as the chance of the poor getting rich still exist but the protection that taxes provide for the rich is to keep them rich and never to go down the ladders of wealth!

I also agree that the rich club has to be small for the power to be in there hands because if everyone is given the opportunity to be rich no one will be able to control or rule over the other hence a device like dividing our income to pay them is the major way to escape the poor.

[Darker45]

It's one thing for a country to have so much debt but has also leveraged that same debt for greater productivity and better services, and quite another for a country to be buried in debt but squandered the money on pointless expenses. The former is Japan. The latter is my tiny country.

Japan is one of the world's largest economies--within the top 5--with a high standard of living. My country is poor with low standard of living. Japan has efficient public services. Bridges seldom collapse but when they do, they're quickly restored to a sturdy condition that would last for decades.

Here in mine, a newly-built bridge may collapse anytime. It takes several years to build it only to see it crumble after weeks or months. The restoration will be done for several years. It will again be serviceable for weeks. Proceeds from loans and grants are either stolen by the country's officials or spent on unsustainable and hollow programs and projects like direct dole-outs and subsidies.

Who likes to pay when there's nothing in return?

[kotajikikox]

I wonder if we are all trapped in the same game. We want more help from our governments, but we do not want to pay higher taxes. We want good schools, healthcare, safe streets, but also lower bills. I am just as guilty. I like cheap services and extra support too. Who doesn't?

Who wouldn't want to live an easy life without having it be the cost of an arm and a leg? It is not surprising. But the issue is having to pay taxes but not seeing good things come from it. For example, in my country. We are a third world country. Politicians are accused of stealing and not paying taxes. Healthcare is expensive. Not enough free education. Infrastructure is inefficient. And yet. People still need to pay taxes.

I wouldn't mind having to pay huge amounts of money in taxes if I am living good. A lot of people do not want to pay taxes because they do not have anything to pay it for. They can barely survive. I just think it is not proportionate to increase taxes without improving the state of your country.

[slapper]

Apart from tax payers money is there no other ways government generate revenue? My country is rich in mineral resources which is basically enough to hand most of the government budgets of every year without tax payers money.

So I ask do we still need to pay more tax to get what the people deserve? it might be very different in every one's country but yet for a country like the US with about 37T trillion in debt and still find a way to sponsor wars in other countries wouldn't that be budget to satisfy the desires of the tax payers than take more debts and make them pay more just to use it to sponsor criminal groups like Isis, bokoharam of Nigeria and other internal was of different countries through the so called IMF funds?

If we make a rational thought about tax payers money and how it is controlled it's nothing more than a device to keep the poor being poor, because obviously that's what the debts are meant to do, as long as you earn bigger you pay bigger making you remain in the same cycle so I do not agree that the people want more but don't want to pay more because indirectly we already pay more than we request of the government!

About government revenue: it is not just taxes. Some countries really do have natural resources or state-owned companies that bring in a lot of money. But, even in those places, I often see two things happen:
- The money from resources (oil, minerals, etc.) often does not reach everyday people the way it should. It gets lost to corruption or just mismanaged
- When those prices fall or demand drops, suddenly the budget hole is back and then everyone talks about taxes again

About the US and huge debts, yeah, we have to wonder how a country can have $37 trillion in debt and still spend billions outside its own borders, whether it is wars, aid, or other projects. Why is there “never enough” for people at home, but always money for things far away? You are not the only one frustrated by this. And the way big global organizations (IMF, whatever) move money around can make regular people everywhere feel powerless

I also agree that the way taxes and debt are managed often keeps regular folks in a cycle: paying more, getting less, always a step behind. The rich find ways around the system, while the poor and middle class pick up the slack. I do not think that is fair

Where I might see it a bit different: I still notice, in most countries, that when a service gets cut or taxes go up, there is always public anger. People might already feel overtaxed, but nobody wants to lose what they have, either. It is a tough, lose-lose cycle. I feel like governments use this confusion to make everything extra complicated so that nobody knows who's really to blame

The debts would keep growing until the global financial system collapses. This is inevitable. The global economy is addicted to debt. The governments are addicted to debt. If suddenly all governments start increasing taxes, cutting government spending and achieving budget surplus, the nations would become very unhappy and this might lead to social tensions. The global GDP might also shrink.
There's still room for growing even bigger debts...

The addiction is real. All that is left for growth is just more debt on top of old debt. It is even political suicide to discuss paying it off or reducing spending. Governments know that people do not want sacrifice, they want comfort. I understand your point that the system will only stop when it fails completely. There is always someone saying, "just print and borrow more, the party is not over yet". And perhaps they are right at the moment. There is still some room left, especially for the US, as the dollar remains the main currency in the world. That exorbitant privilege allows them to play this game longer than anyone

But at the same time, doesn't that make the ending riskier? The longer you push your luck, the bigger the mess when it all snaps. I cannot help thinking the next crisis will feel different from 2008 or COVID. Maybe more sudden, less fixable

...The US dollar would also get devalued because of the tremendous debts. This means that paying off debts with a less valuable currency would be easier, but the problem remains.

It works until people lose faith in the dollar itself. If that happens, it is not just the US that has a problem, but everyone who’s been using dollars as their safe bet. That is a global reset nobody really wants

Most of us are victims to this well known phenomenon.

Gamblers, traders, business owners, white/blue collar workers, housewives…

We all share one thing in common:

We all want something for nothing.

It is not just greed. Greed can be kept under control. This, this cannot.

Everybody wants to live like a king and pay nothing but the resources are limited. Somebody has to pay for it. Poor wageslaves do. How sad. 

EVERYONE (AND MYSELF INCLUDED) is trying to win some version of “the lottery of life” without paying the price. And it is not just greed. Even the most humble person, deep down, wishes for more than they put in. I look around and see the same pattern everywhere. Doesn't matter if you are a trader, a teacher, or just hustling to make rent. Most of us, at some point, hope for an easy break or a shortcut. It is human. But when everyone does it, and the system encourages it, the whole thing gets unsustainable

Somewhere along the line, we went from “work hard, maybe get ahead” to “why don't I have what they have?” And there is always someone to blame: government, billionaires, the system, whatever. But like you said, somebody always ends up holding the bag, and it is usually the people with the least power to say no. It is really sad, realizing how easy it is to just drift along, hoping things will change while knowing deep down that nothing is free and someone pays in the end. Maybe what scares me most is how easy it is to become numb to it all. Just accept that is how it is

[Coyster]

Who likes to pay when there's nothing in return?

Reading your post sounded like you were talking about my country, i am from Nigeria by the way and most of what you said is also the situation in my country. Nigeria is blessed with natural resources, but where does all the government revenue go to? It is spent on paying politicians all sorts of allowances and paying for their luxury, you would be amazed at how much legislators earn in my country when you compare it to the minimum wage.

That said, i don't have a problem with paying my taxes, but i will feel a lot better if they were used to improve the standard of living to an acceptable level.