Bitcoin Forum
April 15, 2026, 10:13:12 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 30.2 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: J. Lopp's Post-Quantum Migration BIP  (Read 3664 times)
Pmalek (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3458
Merit: 9139



View Profile
April 12, 2026, 06:49:48 AM
 #181

Yes but my concern  is how to make something like this user friendly enough that even the non technical holders will be able to use. if it requires manual scripting or complex multi step processes, I think uptake might just too low to matter.
We will all have to get used to it and accept it for what it is because the alternative isn't great. Bitcoin itself required a certain technical know-how the first time we got in contact with the system. People will create tutorials and guides that those with less technical knowledge can follow. Videos will come out to explain the processes. Creating the best possible solution is the priority. User friendliness and ease of use is of secondary importance.

▄▄███████████████████▄▄
▄███████████████████████▄
████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████▀██████▀████
████████████████████████
█████████▄▄▄▄███████████
██████████▄▄▄████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████▀▀███████
▀███████████████████████▀
▀▀███████████████████▀▀
 
 EARNBET 
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
███████▄▄███████████
████▄██████████████████
██▀▀███████████████▀▀███
▄████████████████████████
▄▄████████▀▀▀▀▀████████▄▄██
███████████████████████████
█████████▌██▀████████████
███████████████████████████
▀▀███████▄▄▄▄▄█████████▀▀██
▀█████████████████████▀██
██▄▄███████████████▄▄███
████▀██████████████████
███████▀▀███████████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██


▄▄▄
▄▄▄███████▐███▌███████▄▄▄
█████████████████████████
▀████▄▄▄███████▄▄▄████▀
█████████████████████
▐███████████████████▌
███████████████████
███████████████████
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

 King of The Castle 
 $200,000 in prizes
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

 62.5% 

 
RAKEBACK
BONUS
Satofan44
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 1048


Don't hold me responsible for your shortcomings.


View Profile
April 12, 2026, 02:51:42 PM
Merited by Pmalek (3)
 #182

I think this would be a non viable options. The throughput of bitcoin blockchain would be severely impacted, and migrating all the possible UTXO  would be impossible.
It’s nice to see theoretical improvement on every proposal, but we need something more.
We definitely need something more, but then again, this was never meant to be the final solution. It's just a theoretical scenario and a possible option for those who would want to take matters in their own hands if a necessary protocol change isn't adopted in a future where and if quantum threats become a reality. It's on the experts to research and debate how feasible this scheme is for Bitcoin.
All these intermediary solutions are great, they show that research is being done and all kinds of options are being explored. This is the kind of approach that we need, and not panicking or "community involvement". One would not want to fly on airplane that was built by the "community", would they? As you can also see, a similar thing was done with this proposal in the quotes by d5000 below. The stateful version of it, while technically doable, is very impractical but it was an intermediary step until they figured out and published a stateless version. It is important to publish ideas because some other researchers may not be aware that certain avenues of methods are even possibilities as solution, and as such they could be missing out on key things that could help them solve their own ideas.

I read a bit more and there is actually a problem with the SHRINCS proposal that would make it unpractical to use for Bitcoin: It is a "stateful" method.
Each time you sign a transaction, the "state" of the cryptosystem changes. The private key doesn't consist of a single number but of a tree of numbers. In each signature, other leaves of the tree are used.

The big problem is: If you use one of the leaves twice by accident, this can give an attacker enough information to get the whole key "tree" and then they can steal your coins. So this must be avoided at all cost.

This means that each time you sign a transaction you need to update all your backups with the "state" of the key tree. Effectively this would make it very unpractical to use on more than a single device, and saving the key isn't as simple as simply storing a seed phrase because you need the state too.

Thus Blockstream Research im March came up with an updated proposal called SHRIMPS which doesn't have that problem. It has smaller signatures than SPHINCS+ but much larger than the original SHRINCS (about 2500 bytes) which again would severely restrict the blockchain.

Regarding verification speed, some short info from Google confirms that the "stateless" SPHINCS+ is the most expensive and validation costs almost 20x more than for the "stateful" SHRINCS. SHRIMPS is on a middle ground (about 7x less validation

Yes but my concern  is how to make something like this user friendly enough that even the non technical holders will be able to use. if it requires manual scripting or complex multi step processes, I think uptake might just too low to matter.
You are worrying to far ahead. The method that was posted may not be the "final" solution to this quantum situation, and as such putting large efforts into making it extremely user friendly could end up being a mistake. Let's not rush towards latter steps before we figure out the basics.

Wind_FURY
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3612
Merit: 2180



View Profile
April 13, 2026, 11:46:21 AM
Last edit: April 13, 2026, 11:58:11 AM by Wind_FURY
 #183

Monero Research Labs posted a proposal for an upgrade in X. I know it's for Monero, but because the topic is discussing about probable solutions against the Quantum Threat, I'm posting this here and I'm curious what opinions gmax and achow might have.

Quote

New draft from tevador on post-quantum Jamtis addressing for Monero (PQ forward secrecy + more): "the new format allows for post-quantum forward secret  transactions that can't be decrypted even if the address is publicly  known and the elliptic curve discrete logarithm (ECDLP) is broken."
Feedback welcome!
Tevador: "Incomplete, but probably enough for some feedback."

https://x.com/moneroresearchl/status/2043517631043338531


Github link from the post, https://gist.github.com/tevador/639d083c994c1ef9401832c08e2b7832

██████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
██████████████████████
.SHUFFLE.COM..███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
█████████████████████
████████████████████
██████████████████████
████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
.
...Next Generation Crypto Casino...
Pmalek (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3458
Merit: 9139



View Profile
April 13, 2026, 03:32:24 PM
 #184

Monero Research Labs posted a proposal for an upgrade in X. I know it's for Monero, but because the topic is discussing about probable solutions against the Quantum Threat, I'm posting this here and I'm curious what opinions gmax and achow might have.
I am neither gmax or achow, nor do I posses their technical knowledge but using my limited technical know-how, this seems like a proposal to strengthen the privacy of Monero transactions in a future, post-quantum world. It's supposed to protect the privacy of senders ad receivers, plus the amounts and outputs moving between them. I guess Jamtis introduces a new, post quantum encryption model that's tailored specifically to Monero and not Bitcoin.

I will let others judge whether or not Jamtis or a Jamtis v2 can be modelled for the Bitcoin blockchain.

▄▄███████████████████▄▄
▄███████████████████████▄
████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████▀██████▀████
████████████████████████
█████████▄▄▄▄███████████
██████████▄▄▄████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████▀▀███████
▀███████████████████████▀
▀▀███████████████████▀▀
 
 EARNBET 
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
███████▄▄███████████
████▄██████████████████
██▀▀███████████████▀▀███
▄████████████████████████
▄▄████████▀▀▀▀▀████████▄▄██
███████████████████████████
█████████▌██▀████████████
███████████████████████████
▀▀███████▄▄▄▄▄█████████▀▀██
▀█████████████████████▀██
██▄▄███████████████▄▄███
████▀██████████████████
███████▀▀███████████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██


▄▄▄
▄▄▄███████▐███▌███████▄▄▄
█████████████████████████
▀████▄▄▄███████▄▄▄████▀
█████████████████████
▐███████████████████▌
███████████████████
███████████████████
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

 King of The Castle 
 $200,000 in prizes
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

 62.5% 

 
RAKEBACK
BONUS
Wind_FURY
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3612
Merit: 2180



View Profile
April 14, 2026, 04:30:56 AM
 #185

Monero Research Labs posted a proposal for an upgrade in X. I know it's for Monero, but because the topic is discussing about probable solutions against the Quantum Threat, I'm posting this here and I'm curious what opinions gmax and achow might have.

I am neither gmax or achow, nor do I posses their technical knowledge but using my limited technical know-how, this seems like a proposal to strengthen the privacy of Monero transactions in a future, post-quantum world. It's supposed to protect the privacy of senders ad receivers, plus the amounts and outputs moving between them. I guess Jamtis introduces a new, post quantum encryption model that's tailored specifically to Monero and not Bitcoin.

I will let others judge whether or not Jamtis or a Jamtis v2 can be modelled for the Bitcoin blockchain.


It's obviously to get their network ready for the Quantum Threat, but what I want to learn is if their solution would actually work as planned.

Our fellow plebs might have some "strong ideas", but how could we really know if they're truly qualified to make such affirmations. I'm waiting for gmax and achow if they want to post their opinions/ideas.

██████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
██████████████████████
.SHUFFLE.COM..███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
█████████████████████
████████████████████
██████████████████████
████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
.
...Next Generation Crypto Casino...
Pmalek (OP)
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3458
Merit: 9139



View Profile
April 14, 2026, 06:38:49 AM
 #186

I'm waiting for gmax and achow if they want to post their opinions/ideas.
Somehow I doubt they will. The discussion in this thread has been ongoing for more than half a year and in that time neither of them have posted even once. Will they start now...? doubtful. We can see some of their thoughts from other topics, quoted here by other forum members, but no posts from them directly.

▄▄███████████████████▄▄
▄███████████████████████▄
████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
████████████████████████
████████████▀██████▀████
████████████████████████
█████████▄▄▄▄███████████
██████████▄▄▄████████████
████████████████████████
████████████████▀▀███████
▀███████████████████████▀
▀▀███████████████████▀▀
 
 EARNBET 
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
███████▄▄███████████
████▄██████████████████
██▀▀███████████████▀▀███
▄████████████████████████
▄▄████████▀▀▀▀▀████████▄▄██
███████████████████████████
█████████▌██▀████████████
███████████████████████████
▀▀███████▄▄▄▄▄█████████▀▀██
▀█████████████████████▀██
██▄▄███████████████▄▄███
████▀██████████████████
███████▀▀███████████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██


▄▄▄
▄▄▄███████▐███▌███████▄▄▄
█████████████████████████
▀████▄▄▄███████▄▄▄████▀
█████████████████████
▐███████████████████▌
███████████████████
███████████████████
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀

 King of The Castle 
 $200,000 in prizes
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

 62.5% 

 
RAKEBACK
BONUS
Wind_FURY
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3612
Merit: 2180



View Profile
April 14, 2026, 01:15:12 PM
 #187

I'm waiting for gmax and achow if they want to post their opinions/ideas.


Somehow I doubt they will. The discussion in this thread has been ongoing for more than half a year and in that time neither of them have posted even once. Will they start now...? doubtful. We can see some of their thoughts from other topics, quoted here by other forum members, but no posts from them directly.


OK.

One of my Bitcoin friends said that some of the developers at BlockStream have started talking to Justin Drake of the Ethereum Foundation about the Quantum Threat. It's probably mere informal talks though.

Both blockchains will have their own challenges. For Bitcoin it's mostly political. For Ethereum, it's technically more complicated because there are layers of updates needed to do.

██████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
█████████████████████████
██████████████████████
.SHUFFLE.COM..███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
█████████████████████
████████████████████
██████████████████████
████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
███████████████████████
.
...Next Generation Crypto Casino...
tromp
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1030
Merit: 1171


View Profile
April 14, 2026, 05:21:14 PM
 #188

probable solutions against the Quantum Threat
tevador's proposal is not a solution against the Quantum Threat, which would require post-quantum soundness:

Quote
1.3 Non-goals
An explicit non-goal of Jamtis is post-quantum soundness. This includes preventing a quantum-enabled adversary from:

opening Pedersen commitments to arbitrary monetary values
forging spend authorization proofs and linking tags
forging membership proofs
Past and present Monero transactions are safe from soundness-breaking quantum attacks, assuming no cryptographically relevant quantum computers exist at this moment. Both Carrot and Jamtis support a migration protocol that will be used in a future fully post-quantum upgrade.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!