Start9 vs. Umbrel for Electrum Server

[caen44]

Hi All,

I've gone down the rabbit hole that started with purchasing a Ledger 2 months ago, to running Electrum on airgapped mini-pcs, then learning how keys are derived from seeds, and digging inside the psbt's just to see how they work.

Anyway, I figured I might as well go one step farther and run a bitcoin node for myself. I have installed both Start9 and Umbrel to check them out and they look pretty similar, but being as the blockchain download is HUGE, I'd like to ask for opinions on pros and cons before I choose to install the big stuff.

From what I have seen:

1. Umbrel seems to have a lot more "stuff" available, although I only want bitcoin, electrum server, mempool and maybe the lightening stuff later, so start9 seems to have what I need.
2. Umbrel seems set up to use TOR as an option, whereas Start9 seems to have TOR on by default. I don't really want TOR running all the time, and from what I read, bitcoin core doesn't use it anyway. There is probably a way to disable it in Start9 from the command line, but I wonder if that will break things.

Anyway, just from point 2, Umbrel seems better, but from those of you with experience, what do you think?

Thank you, and I hope I didn't post to the wrong section of the forum. If so, sorry.

[headingnorth]

With Start9 TOR is optional for accessing your server remotely, using an onion address provided by electrum.
For local network access you don't need it, a LAN address is provided to you.

I installed and run Bitcoin Knots with Start9 on a mini pc. I highly recommend Bitcoin Knots over Core.
I have no experience with Umbrel. It took me little more than 1 day to download the blockchain with a
very fast internet connection (1gbps).

I would suggest upgrading your internet speed if possible if it's anything less than 200mbps, at least temporarily.
Otherwise you could be waiting many days if not weeks, and if something goes wrong during the download you
don't want to have to start all over again.

[caen44]

Thanks!

So you can turn TOR off (I'm not sure how, but I can probably do it from the command line) without breaking anything? My internet is pretty fast, but I had a data cap that I just paid to get rid of, so I should be good.

If I can do that I am leaning to Start9 over Umbrel. From what I can gather on the internet, Umbrel has more layers of containerization than Start9, so will probably be more complex to troubleshoot? I guess I could go with a basic Debian server, but I'm more interested in learning about Bitcoin than Linux sys admin.

Why do you recommend Bitcoin Knots over Core? I didn't see it on the Start9 apps page, but obviously there is a way to install it as you have. I only peeked at Start9 for a hour or two so I'm sure I just missed it.

[headingnorth]

You have to manually install TOR on your client to use it with Start9, so no need to turn it off if you never installed it.
Look under System-->About to find your LAN address to connect without using TOR.

Bitcoin Knots is under the community registry menu. Click on "change" to switch to it.
For more information go to the technical support forum.


 

[sixovog457]

Given your specific needs and concerns, Umbrel seems to be the better choice for you. You're primarily interested in Bitcoin, an Electrum server, Mempool, and potentially Lightning later, which both platforms offer. However, your preference to avoid running Tor by default is a key differentiator. Umbrel provides Tor as an option, while Start9 has it on by default, which aligns less with your desired setup. Although disabling Tor on Start9 might be possible, it could lead to unforeseen issues. Therefore, Umbrel's optional Tor configuration MyCardStatement makes it a more straightforward and suitable option for your specific use case.

[ABCbits]

I use neither, but there are few things i can clarify.

2. Umbrel seems set up to use TOR as an option, whereas Start9 seems to have TOR on by default. I don't really want TOR running all the time, and from what I read, bitcoin core doesn't use it anyway. There is probably a way to disable it in Start9 from the command line, but I wonder if that will break things.

Bitcoin Core actually support Tor, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/tor.md. But you need to check with Umbrel or Start9 whether you need to configure Bitcoin Core manually to use Tor.

So you can turn TOR off (I'm not sure how, but I can probably do it from the command line) without breaking anything? My internet is pretty fast, but I had a data cap that I just paid to get rid of, so I should be good.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by get rid of data cap. But FYI, current Bitcoin blocksize is about 700GB.

If I can do that I am leaning to Start9 over Umbrel. From what I can gather on the internet, Umbrel has more layers of containerization than Start9, so will probably be more complex to troubleshoot? I guess I could go with a basic Debian server, but I'm more interested in learning about Bitcoin than Linux sys admin.

Looking at some discussion at Start9 website, it seems Start9 also use docker (one of containerization tool). Here's an example, https://community.start9.com/t/docker-error-no-space-left-on-device/2875.

[caen44]

Thanks all for the replies.

I went with Start9, partly because the OS looked lower overhead and partly because the company appears to philosophically aligned with me and seems more bitcoin focused than personal home server. That said, here is what I learned:

1. It is non-trivial to use bitcoind and electrs without TOR on start9. Requires a bunch of under the hood linux stuff to enable. I actually haven't enabled it yet but it appears to be doable.
2. Start9 team seems to monitor their forums closely. I got a reply to a help post about this topic in just a few minutes. That is a big plus.
3. The start9 iso doesn't quite run on my minipc correctly. The kiosk mode doesn't work. That said, Tails linux doesn't run on that particular mini-pc either. Seems to be a video issue of some sort, but since Start9 can be installed without a keyboard and monitor, it still works. Seems pretty stable so far. Synced bitcoin and electrs in about 48 hours without a hicup. As long as I never need to hook up a monitor it is ok.
4. Seems that both products use Docker containers, however Umbrel itself runs in a container and then runs docker containers inside that. I think that in the long run, Start9 appears to have more flexibility once I learn to work with it. But the learning curve is steep.

However, I think I still might switch to umbrel. The TOR focused nature of start9 is a concern. I'm not sure i want Tor running all the time. I live in the US and Bitcoin is pretty mainstream and nobody would blink an eye at a running bitcoin node. But I think that TOR is associated with much less savory activities and I am leery that running TOR 24/7 might have my ISP suspicious.

The initial sync of the blockchain is pretty slow and uses a lot of data, so that is about the only thing keeping me from trying out Umbel for the moment.

[caen44]

Quick followup:

Turns out it is actually pretty easy to configure Start9 to allow access to electrs and bitcoind over LAN and not TOR. In case anyone else is wondering. Works no problem.

https://community.start9.com/t/how-to-exposing-electrs-and-bitcoind-over-lan-in-startos-0-3/754

As far as not running tor constantly, don't know yet if i can change that.