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Author Topic: Ranking up/down  (Read 989 times)
Ambatman
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August 28, 2025, 01:14:07 AM
 #21

This doesn't affect newbie or low ranked account from spamming
There are quite a number of user(s) with high post counts but barely any merit
But they are still junior member or member
Which changes nothing is their rank is supposedly reduced.

I have seen users that make quality posts on the economics board but not all are opportuned to receive a merit.

The thoughts behind your idea is noble, maybe one in an hundred. Too easy I know but wouldn't affect traffic much.

This doesn't stop account farmers from keeping their rank though

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August 28, 2025, 02:12:35 AM
 #22

If I may get you correctly all these is just to eliminate Spam or what?
Usually, Spam can't be entirely eliminated from this forum as I know, and making this forum too difficult is not also good as well, then why does this forum exist for the first place if I may asked? At least for the past years after the introduction of merits we see the spam gradually reduce and we see those who are not making effort or contributing to the forum remain on their ranks and that is enough.

At least sometimes making here a bit friendly could be fine, why because we must surey have newbies coming on board, and if I must say bitcointalk.org is mostly featured on Google search engine immediately you mentioned anything related to Bitcoin it would redirect you to here, and then probably such person would sign up and began the same process by asking same questions (doing same thing) or not even abiding to some rules or doesn't even know what is merits and it functions, when the forum is too difficult for them to scale through you see them automatically dumping the forum to somewhere else that is more easier for them to use.

And then guess what? The traffic of this forum gradually decreases whereby you are giving way to the other forum to grow above Bitcointalk.org So, for me I say no no to all the above proposed methods. Why do we talk about freedom on this forum but now you are trying to restrict such freedom from people here in the name of eliminating spam which  to me it makes no sense.

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Amphenomenon
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August 28, 2025, 01:18:58 PM
 #23

While this is for a good intention, it may makes things more difficult for the forum in general.

The rate of earning merit as a newbie is really difficult that I think even on average making 20 posts doesn't guarantee merit and such a user might not be a spammer rather trying to contribute, learn and others which include what you added on your post about those coming to make complaints.

Also, this will lead to even more eagerness  for wanting merit, making not just spammers but more merit farmers neither of these are good for the forum growth.

 
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Frankolala
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August 28, 2025, 01:28:18 PM
 #24

This is a good idea for forum members who are in the technical field and can earn tons of merits in just one post and not for members like us who barely earn merit based on our own area of interest. The forum is a place that welcome all categories of people, slow learners and fast learner even with the lazy ones. If this ranking down is implemented, it will discourage new members from joining the forum and scare already registered members away. Which I don't think that is what the forum wants.

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August 28, 2025, 01:29:49 PM
 #25

Who offended PowerGlove?
Please, someone should give him a beer to forget this idea. This is not all about spammers, but I bet you that you will disrupt the whole arrangement of the forum. Merit sources will be so powerful, merit buying will increase and the richest will remain at the top.
In fact, this your idea came too early, I thought it was intended to be given theymos on the eve of 1st April. Why did you expose it so early Grin

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August 28, 2025, 02:01:24 PM
 #26

This could come off as putting too much emphasis on merits. A simple approach to spam will be to have heavier spam moderation and a full application of the rules for defaulters, which involves a couple of temporary bans and then a permanent one if it persists.

I could get on board with something like this for airdropped merits for accounts that have not earned a single merit per 500 or 100 posts made. For members who have been able to contribute constructively and help out other users, they have effectively earned their merits and shouldn't need to retain it.
I see where you’re coming from and I totally agree that moderation should always be the first line of defense. If spam was handled more firmly with escalating bans, I don’t think we will even be thinking or discussing about “carry” or decay formulas in the first place.

I also like your point about targeting only those accounts that have huge post counts but zero earned merit because it sounds very fair. Anyone who has contributed and picked up merits naturally has already proven their worth, so I think it'll be unfair to make them fight to keep what they’ve rightly earned.

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August 28, 2025, 04:29:28 PM
 #27

Instead of implementing a deranking mechanism with "carry," why not simplify the whole idea and base the rank directly on the ratio of merits to posts?
The higher your merit/post ratio, the higher your rank.

The need to maintain a high share of useful contributions will only apply until a member reaches the highest rank. Once you’ve achieved the top rank, it means you’ve already proven yourself as a respected contributor to the forum. At that stage, you should be allowed some “elder’s grumbling” and casual posting without fear of losing your status.

This would give a very clear purpose to reaching the highest rank: it’s not just about patience or consistency, but about maintaining a strong balance of quality to quantity. After that milestone, the forum recognizes your legacy and contribution, and you can enjoy more freedom in how you post.
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August 28, 2025, 05:21:40 PM
 #28

The rate of earning merit as a newbie is really difficult that I think even on average making 20 posts doesn't guarantee merit and such a user might not be a spammer rather trying to contribute, learn and others which include what you added on your post about those coming to make complaints.
Nope, the lower the rank, the easier to get merit.

I think many users give merit based on the users' rank and knowledge, if they're not that good, but they're still newbie, they can still get couple merits. But if they were Hero or Legendary, but they post like a newbie's knowledge, people won't merit them.

The higher your merit/post ratio, the higher your rank.
Users can delete their own posts, there were few users did that.


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August 28, 2025, 05:50:44 PM
 #29

Users can delete their own posts, there were few users did that.
Oh, that’s true! I’ve run into this many times myself. It’s especially frustrating when actually useful posts get deleted. Sometimes I even give them merit just so I can find them later, but then when I check my sent merits, the post is gone and I can’t access the information I wanted.

So yes, that’s a real way to abuse the system. Although, if “carry” is counted at the moment of posting, then deleting posts would be pointless. In that case, the original proposal is definitely more effective than mine.

Also, with my merit/post ratio idea, nothing would prevent the trading of high-rank accounts. But in the original “carry” scheme, there are built-in barriers against that.
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August 28, 2025, 06:08:10 PM
 #30

The rate of earning merit as a newbie is really difficult that I think even on average making 20 posts doesn't guarantee merit and such a user might not be a spammer rather trying to contribute, learn and others which include what you added on your post about those coming to make complaints.
Nope, the lower the rank, the easier to get merit.
I will still stand on this ground that earning merit as a newbie is really difficult. Reputation plays a role here and while is not like it's not the main criteria it helps others to be sure this is not just another newbie using Ai or something else in order to rank up.

I don't know hie you distribute your merit but I will say people are more mindful in sending merit to a newbie than  a reputable account.

I think many users give merit based on the users' rank and knowledge, if they're not that good, but they're still newbie, they can still get couple merits. But if they were Hero or Legendary, but they post like a newbie's knowledge, people won't merit them.
I think this occur when the newbie is showing a sign of willingness to learn and not too far off from the answer.  While reputable accounts here might not earn from it but still can depending on how they portray themselves in such situation, someone is willing to learn and doesn't Speaks with pride when they lacks knowledge in that regard will likely earn merit and be enlightened. 

The later by the way is more important.

 
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August 28, 2025, 06:13:41 PM
 #31

In effect, you'll need to earn at least 1 merit for every 10 posts you write (on average) if you wish to prevent your account from slowly drifting toward a lower rank.

I don't think encouraging a user to earn 1 merit for every 10 posts is too much to ask.

I would agree in principle but 1 merit for every 10 posts is outrageous and certainly demotivating most of new comers (low rank members). IMO, 1 merit per 50 posts (even 100)
would be fair and more compatible.
Just my 2 cents, you guys know much more than I do, of course.


  


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August 28, 2025, 07:45:27 PM
 #32

Signature campaigns cloud people's judgement. Bitcointalk is discussion forum foremost, and one should not do things that make people think twice before posting.

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August 29, 2025, 12:37:02 AM
 #33

From what I can tell, most people with even half decent quality don’t have a problem maintaining the necessary ratio. The only people this might affect are super spammers and a few people that don’t ever join paid campaigns.

Like with any other system, there will inevitably be those who try to cheat. I suspect we will start to see accounts who suddenly show a lot of interest in doing push ups and talking about the Bitcoin price.

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August 29, 2025, 10:03:20 AM
 #34

As everything PowerGlove does, this is a very thoughtful approach to introducing a possible improvement to the forum. I don't think encouraging a user to earn 1 merit for every 10 posts is too much to ask.
Not too much task for you because you are earning merit almost everyday, but why not think of other people? If it can be 100 posts and not 10 posts, that will be better. But I still see no use of this because this forum is good how it is now with the merit system. We do not need to be stricter. Many newbies will suffer from this while those people that are old on this forum will know where they will meet and discuss about merit and send themselves merit regardless of their post quality. Even this has not be done, it is happening. Psychologically...

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August 29, 2025, 11:15:44 AM
 #35

I also like your point about targeting only those accounts that have huge post counts but zero earned merit because it sounds very fair.
I was only suggesting that as a last resort. While I understand that spammers do not contribute effectively and make tons of posts that are zero value, I also understand that early posters before merits and signatures were a thing contributed to the growth of the forum. There was lots of spam then, but also lots of helpful contributions, without which the forum may not be at the stage it is now.

My top recommendation will be stricter moderation and a zero spam policy.

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August 29, 2025, 12:25:17 PM
 #36

We always advise newbies to be sincere, to be who they really are, without exaggerating anything about themselves, without lies and fabrications. The condition of getting one merit in the period of their ten posts will simply "blow the mind" of those who know little but will diligently follow this rule. I think we will see a lot of rephrasing of plagiarism and many posts with AI somehow changing their wording. In addition, the one who did not get the merit for ten posts will write even more, hoping to compensate for the gap and get these merits by increasing the number of posts.

The idea is good, but given that people now read little, we will really lose users who cannot cope. If we talk about farmers, they will be the same as they were. Who will forbid one alternative account from sending the merit to another account, considering that in some local sections, there are whole groups of friends? I think many people observe a situation where merits are distributed for posts exclusively in one language section, several pieces over a period of several minutes or even seconds, although the posts themselves do not relate to the date of distribution of merit, and there is a large period of time between them. It is clear that an agreement works that can be designated "you to me, and I to you," even between three or more accounts.

 
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August 29, 2025, 04:19:27 PM
 #37

I've gotta say, I'm slightly surprised (in a good way). I mean, I figured people would just point out flaws and "boo" this one into oblivion (and while that's mostly what is happening, it's not to the extent that I imagined it would be).

Here are a few more thoughts (after digesting the responses and doing some thinking of my own):

(*) I think 0.1 is somewhere in the ballpark of a merit-to-post ratio that should be exceeded if someone's trying to grow their rank. I mean, I realize that not everyone can contribute at the same level, and so, I'm trying to find a ratio that I think most every person can hit without giving themselves a hernia (so to speak). If all I wanted was to drive up the forum's signal-to-noise ratio while not really considering where this might leave people who depend on the forum for some amount of their income, then I'd be tempted to set it much higher (like 1.5, which while 15 times greater than 0.1 and completely unrealistic-seeming to most, is still ~6 times lower than my own merit-to-post ratio). The problem with setting it too low (like 0.01, or something) is that we would then have complexified things in exchange for no real improvement to anything. If 1000 posts can be produced while only risking a backslide of 10 merits, then I predict very little will change by implementing this "carry" thing. But if writing 1000 unappreciated posts can end up costing you 100 merits, then that's genuinely behavior-affecting, IMO. As with everything Bitcoin(talk), I'm pro-freedom. As in, if you want to make 1000 posts that the community is effectively "telling you" (by not leaving you any merit) that they don't appreciate, then that's fine, and you should feel free to keep doing that. But, if for some reason that's the posting pattern that you've fallen into and you're still very concerned with maintaining or increasing your "rank", then something like what I'm proposing will encourage you to find a more community-appreciated way to spend your time on the forum. (And when you think about it, what kind of BS user is that, anyway? Someone who's at once saying "I have little to offer" and "I wish to be highly regarded"?)

(*) There would need to be some exemptions, I think. ChartBuddy should be able to post without building up "carry" (though, like LV said, probably the WO crowd would have been happy to keep CB fed with merits). Also, people should be able to post redirection topics without worrying about "carry". Maybe the "Serious discussion" and "Ivory Tower" boards should be exempted. That kind of thing. Because the "carry" database table would be event-style in the same sense that the "merit" database table is (as in, balances in either case are derived by summing over an adjustable record of events, rather than just being stored opaquely), I don't think it's very important to ahead-of-time think of every piece of special casing. Over time, cases can be made for specific things to be exempted (like maybe some of LV's data-dumping threads, for example), and even if those cases are only discovered after they've already caused unwarranted accumulation of "carry", it would be very easy to after-the-fact fix that with retroactive exemptions. (In general, though, if I were making the decisions, which I won't be, I'd lean toward "no" for most exemption requests. There's something very natural to me about letting merit decide whether or not the community appreciates something, and I struggle to think of clear examples of things that definitely should keep happening despite the fact that they don't/can't carry their own weight in terms of receiving merit.)

(*) It's natural for me to consider things in very abstract ways and to keep my mental "wavefunction" from collapsing around concrete details that aren't central to the "shape" of whatever it is that I'm thinking about. But, I know that that's not how everyone thinks, and some people prefer a style of thinking where concrete details dominate their analysis of something. In my experience, it's very frustrating trying to transmit ideas across an abstract-thinking vs. concrete-thinking "impedance mismatch". With the particular proposal in the OP, I've tried to "project" an abstract idea down onto the "concrete plane" so that it can be easily discussed. But, it's important to remember that many such "projections" exist, and there's no real value in picking apart just one of them (it's only really valuable when you've found a problem that would exist in every concrete projection of an abstract idea). Basically, what I'm saying is, I'm not very attached to any given detail in the OP, and I only really have a sense that something like what I've suggested could be made to work. For example, maybe it should instead work like: If you've received any amount of merit during the previous 14-day "activity" window, then all the posts you make in the current 14-day window won't attract any "carry" (all that that changes is the specific logic driving when the system does and doesn't generate a "carry transaction", but the scaffolding remains: a subtractive term in the rank calculation that's kept track of with an event-style database table).

(*) Back when rank used to be post-count-only, and things were adjusted to be based on "activity" (in June of 2013), many posters were all like "Why change this? FFS, I liked how it was before!". Then, when an additional term was introduced (in January of 2018), again, many posters were all like "Why change this? FFS, I liked how it was before!". So, it's inevitable, IMO, that any rank-hardening adjustment made at this point, even one that manages to "thread the needle" just so and long-term improve the forum's signal-to-noise ratio without causing too many casualties in that pursuit, will, at the time of its proposal or implementation, be met with some amount of, wait for it... "Why change this? FFS, I liked how it was before!" Cheesy
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August 30, 2025, 06:20:07 AM
 #38

This doesn't affect newbie or low ranked account from spamming
There are quite a number of user(s) with high post counts but barely any merit
But they are still junior member or member
Which changes nothing is their rank is supposedly reduced.

I have seen users that make quality posts on the economics board but not all are opportuned to receive a merit.

The thoughts behind your idea is noble, maybe one in an hundred. Too easy I know but wouldn't affect traffic much.

This doesn't stop account farmers from keeping their rank though
We can not automatically get rid of everything that is associated to spam, the more people comes the more task increases for the mods itself.
The ranking system is actually enough with the rules over the forum, most time when we are trying to make things better it's then we are even trying out to soiled what has already been done properly.

I specially thank you for the countless efforts towards this forum. @PowerGlove

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August 30, 2025, 06:59:37 AM
 #39

I will still stand on this ground that earning merit as a newbie is really difficult. Reputation plays a role here and while is not like it's not the main criteria it helps others to be sure this is not just another newbie using Ai or something else in order to rank up.

I don't know hie you distribute your merit but I will say people are more mindful in sending merit to a newbie than  a reputable account.
People can always use AI checker before merit the post, that's for the user who avoid to meriting AI poster.

If reputation plays a role for meriting someone, that's mean the users aren't completely correct to spend their merit because they judge the users more than the post quality.

I give merit based on quality, not like someone who think post from high ranked users are always correct.


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August 30, 2025, 07:04:35 AM
 #40

(*) Back when rank used to be post-count-only, and things were adjusted to be based on "activity" (in June of 2013), many posters were all like "Why change this? FFS, I liked how it was before!". Then, when an additional term was introduced (in January of 2018), again, many posters were all like "Why change this? FFS, I liked how it was before!". So, it's inevitable, IMO, that any rank-hardening adjustment made at this point, even one that manages to "thread the needle" just so and long-term improve the forum's signal-to-noise ratio without causing too many casualties in that pursuit, will, at the time of its proposal or implementation, be met with some amount of, wait for it... "Why change this? FFS, I liked how it was before!" Cheesy

No offense but we have already an ongoing issue about merit circle jerker that farming merits on spam thread, WO and local merit thread.

Your suggestion is pro merit jerker and will remove the natural poster that doesn’t have any good knowledge on the board which merit is heavily distributed. Your suggestion is feasible if merit source is available on every thread of the forum and no bias on merit sharing, hence everyone should have an allocation of sMerit per month in able to cover the merit distribution on the forum just like the reddit upvote and downvote power for everyone to gather karma.

You are trying to build a contribution group like github and not a forum by adding a stricter rules that requires merit just to keep your rank. It’s bitcointalk, I believe any form of discussion related to Bitcoin given that it’s not a spam is already a contribution here CMIIW.
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