Limbo - a mixer in disguise? New signature campaign

[Synchronice]

What surprised me the most was the sky high reward, $125 per week which is irregular and far beyond anything that I've seen for something that isn't a casino. The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

$125 per week is not a high sky reward on Bitcointalk. $90 is almost an average on Hero/Legendary rank and many people get special pay in signature campaigns if their reputation is big and they have been here for a long time. But their budget is pretty high, paying $3750 every week means paying $15,000 monthly, which is really a pretty big amount of money.

Now, whether this is a mixer or not. Let's be honest, the point is the same but the approach is different. Flagged Bitcoins? Get clean coins back. This message is no different from mixers.
Should it be on the forum? I don't know. I'm afraid that the communication is on this forum, which can be a danger for this forum and please don't start me explaining. This activity with its nature is very close to mixing and this directly means mixing through this forum, which can turn into trouble because authorities visited this forum two times and the message is clear.

[tbct_mt2]

I just noticed your signature for example. You are carrying a signature for RAZED.com and It says "NO KYC".

Money goes in, the player makes a 99% win chance bet, wins, money goes out.

How is that any different than a mixer?

Let's report RAZED too, I think that's also a mixer. Yes there is a 1% chance to lose everything but that's the price of using a no-kyc mi... I mean a casino.

Someone with 100 btc can register 100 different accounts on that casino, do 100 different 1 btc 98-99% win chance bets, mathematically he will lose 1 or 2 of them, withdraw his coins and sail away. I am not particularly talking about this casino in your signature space, I mean every other no-kyc casinos. What I am saying applies to all of them.

Since players need to make bets before they withdraw, the player can make the safest bets and then withdraw. That way they don't risk pretty much anything. The house edge becomes the mixer fee.

No, I did not conclude that Hhampuz did anything wrong with this new signature campaign. I only shared that he was careful with services that look like mixers and he sent PM to theymos for clarification. I only guessed that Hhampuz did the same this time as well.

Moreover, I remember that in one post Hhampuz said that he stopped promoting mixer services after the mixer ban in the forum as well as lawsuit cases around. I tried to find that post but failed to find it.

I don't think it's necessary to compare Limbo and Razed in this discussion.

I found this

No-KYC exchanges, casinos, etc. are very intentionally not banned. This service is different in two important ways:

First, referring to the mixer definition, it "has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property." It allows BTC->BTC "trades", which satisfies the "returning the same property" part, and it advertises itself as improving privacy of the returned coins. So it's a mixer. Most no-KYC exchanges neither allow BTC->BTC "trades" nor advertise their service as improving the privacy of your coins somehow, whereas a mixer would have to do both of those things.

Second: If somebody posted on the Currency Exchange board and offered to trade your stolen coins for clean coins minus a fee, or linked to a website meant to effect such trades, that would definitely be disallowed due to the prohibition on illegal trades, even before the mixer ban. The service in question here does not use the phrase "stolen coins": they say "dirty coins", which is definitely different and could include some legally-sourced coins. But when I look at all of their marketing materials holistically, it all feels too close to the stolen-coins-trader example. So I'd lean toward banning this particular service even if they didn't meet the mixer definition. "Make your dirty coins clean" is not something that typical no-KYC exchanges advertise.

[Zoomic]

Though you are right the service seems like a mixing service, but it's not. it's more like and exchange medium as stated on their Ann thread and the campaign manager Hhampuz knows better not to bring a mixer to the forum when it's ban has not been lifted.

Doesn't it look like a bitcoin laundering facility?

"Limbo is offering users with problematic/flagged BTC to exchange it quickly and securely..."

It's not hard to guess why users end up with problematic btc's. Where does the service put these coins after receiving them? Does it transfer them to other users?

Everything seems fine until the mention of problematic bitcoin. We know that the best place to exchange or clean our problematic bitcoin is the mixers. That is why I don't blame people linking limbo to mixers.

The real question should be, how does limbo clean a problematic bitcoin? So they take it from customers and send to a mixer, receive it and send back to the customers. Do they take it to DEX or they mix it themselves?
Op, I don't understand why you based your judgement so much on the pay. $125 is not so much that hasn't been paid before.

[Fortify]

Op, I don't understand why you based your judgement so much on the pay. $125 is not so much that hasn't been paid before.

This seems to be a reoccurring theme here, that other people are obsessing about but has no real relevance. $125 per week is high on the scale of signature campaigns, that is all. The fact that it is not a casino, which make a lot of money from their players, also stands out - I see the campaigns going through regularly, exchanges often pay the least in comparison when they do decide to advertise using that method. It was simply an indicator that flagged a certain interest to know more. The wording of the service struck me as very similar to how a mixer would describe their offering, that is the real point of the discussion here.

[mindrust]

…

I didn’t read your earlier post, I only noticed your signature and my post was only about that. You don’t need to explain anything. I wanted to make a comparison between no kyc casinos and mixers but it seems that nokyc thing is there only for marketing purposes. I am not bringing razed into this specifically, there is another forum user who carries another nokyc casino signature. Whatever I said in my earlier post applies to his signature as well.

Long story short, I believe criminals can wash their money in nokyc casinos too, they don’t do that only with mixers but that’s only if these casinos offer real nokyc. If it is for marketing only then it won’t work.

[Don Pedro Dinero]

I've sent Hhampuz a PM, and reported Orion Blake's topic.

I see that the thread is still active, although that doesn't necessarily mean anything, because if the moderators haven't taken action, they are probably waiting for theymos to take a look at the issue, and even if he has already done so, we know that he is not one to rush into decisions.

I believe that, given the above, they will end up deleting the thread and the Hh campaign will not be able to be launched. Another thing is how we would like things to be, but as they stand today, and given that there has been no relevant legislative change with regard to mixers, I see no reason for that service and that campaign to be allowed here (or rather, I see no reason why that thread and that campaign should be allowed and not many others)..

[Zoomic]

Op, I don't understand why you based your judgement so much on the pay. $125 is not so much that hasn't been paid before.

This seems to be a reoccurring theme here, that other people are obsessing about but has no real relevance. $125 per week is high on the scale of signature campaigns, that is all. The fact that it is not a casino, which make a lot of money from their players, also stands out - I see the campaigns going through regularly, exchanges often pay the least in comparison when they do decide to advertise using that method. It was simply an indicator that flagged a certain interest to know more. The wording of the service struck me as very similar to how a mixer would describe their offering, that is the real point of the discussion here.

I agree that the wordings of the service is the very point of emphasis here. I am going to visit their ANN thread to understand very well for myself whether they are exchange or even an exchanger.

For the pay, casinos aren't known for paying high. It is either mixers or exchanges. Don't forget BestChange and eXch paid higher than many casinos.

[EarnOnVictor]

Though you are right the service seems like a mixing service, but it's not. it's more like and exchange medium as stated on their Ann thread and the campaign manager Hhampuz knows better not to bring a mixer to the forum when it's ban has not been lifted.

Doesn't it look like a bitcoin laundering facility?

"Limbo is offering users with problematic/flagged BTC to exchange it quickly and securely..."

It's not hard to guess why users end up with problematic btc's. Where does the service put these coins after receiving them? Does it transfer them to other users?

Everything seems fine until the mention of problematic bitcoin. We know that the best place to exchange or clean our problematic bitcoin is the mixers. That is why I don't blame people linking limbo to mixers.

The "Problematic Bitcoin" is a wider context than you think. Even the coins released to you by mixers could be problematic, so Limbo shouldn't be judged emphatically due to that. I urge that the modality be carefully studied instead of a quick judgment, as the privacy brought by Bitcoin must be preserved/enhanced in some ways.

I tell you, many innocent people who got their coins legally are victims of problematic Bitcoin too. If there is a way to fix it, why not? Limbo didn't come as a direct mixer. I only hope the service is trustworthy.

From the ANN, the problematic remarks were further hinted at as "hard-to-use BTC". There could be many reasons for that, and if Limbo could fix it, why not again? This is why I will rather view the service as a Fixer. Regardless, let's wait to learn more about it.

[Ambatman]

They might look like a mixer especially with emphasis on privacy and no log
And they don't mix addresses. So it can be easily traced from what I can see
So like a direct p2p.
And what also strikes me as different is that the impact of the outputs are different.

While mixers gives 'tainted' coins, They give back 'cleaner' coins.

The biggest issue government have with mixers is privacy.

[d5000]

I also stumbled upon that campaign and I unfortunately think the service will not be allowed here.

The rules theymos has stated are basically that anything whose only purpose is to deposit BTC and get BTC from other origins back falls under the ban. If it was a swap service where you send Bitcoins and get altcoins, or vice versa, then it would be allowed even without KYC (if it's legal in its jurisdiction) as it would be an "exchanger" and theymos has explicitly mentioned they are allowed. It would also be allowed if it was any other service where you "do" something with your Bitcoins (you deposit Bitcoins, the Bitcoins are used for whatever reason -- lending, gambling, Lightning etc. -- and later can withdraw them). But if the only purpose was the BTC-to-other-BTC-swap, then this from my understanding falls under the "mixer ban".

However, theymos has also stated recently that he may reconsider lifting the mixer ban but perhaps it's too early now.

[Ultegra134]

$125 per week is not a high sky reward on Bitcointalk. $90 is almost an average on Hero/Legendary rank and many people get special pay in signature campaigns if their reputation is big and they have been here for a long time. But their budget is pretty high, paying $3750 every week means paying $15,000 monthly, which is really a pretty big amount of money.

Now, whether this is a mixer or not. Let's be honest, the point is the same but the approach is different. Flagged Bitcoins? Get clean coins back. This message is no different from mixers.
Should it be on the forum? I don't know. I'm afraid that the communication is on this forum, which can be a danger for this forum and please don't start me explaining. This activity with its nature is very close to mixing and this directly means mixing through this forum, which can turn into trouble because authorities visited this forum two times and the message is clear.

You're correct, it is not. Most campaigns pay from $80 to $100 for Hero or Legendary, with few paying as high as $125, which is in this case and it's not an alarming amount to raise such concerns. The most worrisome is that they're claiming to provide their users with "clean" Bitcoin is alarming, and is the basic principle of mixers. I'm personally not quite sure if it's a mixer disguised as an exchange, someone will need to use their service to confirm. On the one hand, I understand the concerns regarding the mixer ban, although I'd be happy if the ban is eventually lifted.

[SuperBitMan]

Op, I don't understand why you based your judgement so much on the pay. $125 is not so much that hasn't been paid before.

This seems to be a reoccurring theme here, that other people are obsessing about but has no real relevance. $125 per week is high on the scale of signature campaigns, that is all. The fact that it is not a casino, which make a lot of money from their players, also stands out - I see the campaigns going through regularly, exchanges often pay the least in comparison when they do decide to advertise using that method. It was simply an indicator that flagged a certain interest to know more. The wording of the service struck me as very similar to how a mixer would describe their offering, that is the real point of the discussion here.

I agree that the wordings of the service is the very point of emphasis here. I am going to visit their ANN thread to understand very well for myself whether they are exchange or even an exchanger.

For the pay, casinos aren't known for paying high. It is either mixers or exchanges. Don't forget BestChange and eXch paid higher than many casinos.

I don't get you do you mean that casinos can't pay this high well I think you need to look that this casino https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5539556.msg65314529#msg65314529 they where paying exactly the same amount this campaign wants to pay, I believe there are other casinos that pay very high in this forum.
This main issue here is not about the pay it is about being a mixer or not, I have been trying to go into the exchange because I believe it will be an exchange but I'm not seeing the site or any app that can lead me inside to check something by myself.
The thread is still in the forum and I'm sure the forum management are looking into it and they will be the once to make the final decision in this matter let's just hold on.

[nigerianprince420]

I don't get you do you mean that casinos can't pay this high well I think you need to look that this casino https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5539556.msg65314529#msg65314529 they where paying exactly the same amount this campaign wants to pay, I believe there are other casinos that pay very high in this forum.

There is a difference between an established business that has been successful for many years and a brand new no name p2p exchange. It’s definitely something out of the ordinary.

[un_rank]

Hhampuz is a very experienced manager and gets the benefit of the doubt from me. I will say that there are a lot of gaps in information as to how this service actually works. Do I choose the address I receive the bitcoins back in? If I send whole inputs, can I receive in the same address I sent from?

This could easily be falling in a gray area. I could start a lending service and give people back bitcoins they give me within a very short time frame, this does not make my service a mixer.

- Jay -

[Hatchy]

The campaign thread just got deleted. I guess that brings an end to the. Debate.

[Xal0lex]

The campaign thread just got deleted. I guess that brings an end to the. Debate.

The topic announcing the service Limbo was also deleted, and the author of the topic was banned.

[theymos]

Yep, that's a mixer. Thanks for pointing it out.

It took me a while to figure out exactly what he was doing, but this quote made it pretty clear that it is a mixer per the forum's definition:

The model is simple: one party holds BTC that might be difficult to deposit on exchanges (e.g., from casinos), while the other party holds BTC from exchanges. They trade directly under agreed terms.

[Fortify]

It's been decided. Locking thread now to avoid any further drawn out debate.