Limbo - a mixer in disguise? New signature campaign

[Fortify]

Apologies if this is the wrong place, but I saw this new signature campaign thread just now:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5560452.0

What surprised me the most was the sky high reward, $125 per week which is irregular and far beyond anything that I've seen for something that isn't a casino. The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

[Mia Chloe]

What surprised me the most was the sky high reward, $125 per week which is irregular and far beyond anything that I've seen for something that isn't a casino. The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

If you are judging from the pay rate then you might be wrong. Exch paid up $120 even wasabi wallet back in the day and non of these two were mixers. Some casinos infact still pay over $125 some even up to $150 and some have been around for quite a long time.

[Glowy]

Apologies if this is the wrong place, but I saw this new signature campaign thread just now:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5560452.0

What surprised me the most was the sky high reward, $125 per week which is irregular and far beyond anything that I've seen for something that isn't a casino. The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

Maybe there is something good coming. Maybe they have big investors already on ground. And those working need to be appreciated with good pay. I mean again, what do I know?

[Hatchy]

What surprised me the most was the sky high reward, $125 per week which is irregular and far beyond anything that I've seen for something that isn't a casino. The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

What's irregular about that? BC games launched a campaign which ended not quite long and paid at same rate https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5539556.msg65314529#msg65314529.

Though you are right the service seems like a mixing service, but it's not. it's more like and exchange medium as stated on their Ann thread and the campaign manager Hhampuz knows better not to bring a mixer to the forum when it's ban has not been lifted.

[Agbamoni]

Hhampuz in the past, unintentionally launched a campaign in the past that was related to mixing, if I remember correctly the campaign was called off. I dont think Hhampuz will make the same mistake of bring a mixing service again to the forum, when he fully knows the ban is yet to be lifted.
They are literally not the only Non KYC exchange in the forum without a website.

In the meantime, hands are crossed. I will leave the forum administration to look into it.

[Free Market Capitalist]

I don't know why you're focusing so much on what the campaign pays. The question here is what the business is about, and what seems fishy to me is that when I search for “limbo exchange,” the only thing that comes up is the campaign thread on the forum. If I click on the image, it takes me to https://t.me/OrionBlake888, and if I click on the signature, it takes me to send a PM on the forum to this Orion Blake guy. What is this supposed to be? A service to “clean” problematic coins run by a single person? Without a website?

I don't remember seeing such a thing on the forum.

Edit: this is the Ann thread. [Service] Assistance with hard-to-use BTC – smooth exchange available

[BitBakerr1]

Hhampuz is a very smart and intelligent manager and I'm sure he will not bring mixer to the forum knowing fully well is ban here in this forum.
The campaign is paying huge amount of money however that should not be a yastic to say it's a mixer I think what we should be looking at for are, do they permit KYC we all know mixer usually don't care about KYC because they prioritize privacy / anonymity features.
There are still a lot of things we can check in other to find out if truly is mixer or not but I believe Hhampuz would have checked all that however the management can still do there investigation with Transaction behaviour they can find out if it's mixer or not.

One issue I'm having is that they don't have a website I tried but no way, and I don't even think they have an app.

[LoyceV]

The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

I think you should have posted this in Mixers to be banned.

Start with theymos' definition:

Something is considered a mixer if it meets all of these requirements:
 1. It has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property.
     a. Even though you can sometimes use non-mixers to mix coins by depositing and then withdrawing, this doesn't make it a mixer because this is an incidental use of the service; the service isn't advertised as privacy-enhancing.
     b. If a site is not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function, such as a mixer function on a gambling website, then the whole site is considered a mixer.
     c. If the site takes coins, gives you a possibly-transferrable IOU, and will convert this IOU back into mixed coins much later, then the temporary conversion into a different type of property does not prevent it from being considered a mixer.
     d. If the site internally converts your deposit into other things as part of its mixing, but ultimately the point of the product is to get your original type of property back, then that's a mixer, not an exchanger.
 2. It is possible for the mixer to steal property passing through it. Assume that the sender does everything as correctly as possible. Also assume that no miners/verifiers on the base-layer cryptocurrency are evil. But assume that every other actor involved is evil (everyone able to vote in a DAO, every coordination server, every counterparty, every member of a multisig, etc.). Ignore short-term software bugs which are expected to be quickly fixed.
 3. The service does not collect KYC-type info from all users. (This is not an endorsement of KYC generally, or a condemnation of non-KYC services generally. Non-KYC services of other types are still allowed, and in many cases they are a good idea.)

I'd say it's a mixer:
1. You send Bitcoin, and get back Bitcoin.
2. After you send Bitcoin, they could steal it. Using an escrow doesn't matter, at that point the escrow is considered part of the business as he could steal the money.
3. It doesn't ask KYC.

It's also the dumbest mixer ever:

PM communication only

Cloudflare can read ~ any PMs you send or look at.

Cloudflare is very probably an NSA honeypot

I've sent Hhampuz a PM, and reported Orion Blake's topic.

[rat03gopoh]

You might want to visit the service thread, to quote a bit:

BTC delivered directly from major exchanges (e.g., HTX, OKEx, Binance).

Hopefully, this clears up your doubts.

[Apocollapse]

1. You send Bitcoin, and get back Bitcoin.

I agree, this is the most important part.

He make it not look obvious for saying "coins" <> BTC instead of BTC <> BTC, even he didn't mix the coins, but the point is people send BTC and they got BTC from somewhere else which is considered as mixing per theymos's definition.

Thanks for your feedback! Unlike mixers or swaps, this isn't about privacy or anonymization. It's simply a reliable solution for people whose BTC isn’t accepted by major exchanges. Clients specifically receive BTC from exchanges with a 100% licensed exchange rating (e.g., HTX, Binance), ensuring the assets are accepted everywhere.

I hope Hhampuz and other applicants to read this thread.

[NotATether]

You might want to visit the service thread, to quote a bit:

BTC delivered directly from major exchanges (e.g., HTX, OKEx, Binance).

Hopefully, this clears up your doubts.

Why are we allowing exchange affiliates to make ANN topics in the Exchanges board if we're not going to allow services that take your BTC and return you coins from the same exchanges?

They are exactly identical, except one sporadically requests KYC (and don't even follow regulations themselves re: FixedFloat), and one doesn't.

Should non-KYC exchanges be banned from Bitcointalk then?

I think the answer is already known.

[m2017]

Though you are right the service seems like a mixing service, but it's not. it's more like and exchange medium as stated on their Ann thread and the campaign manager Hhampuz knows better not to bring a mixer to the forum when it's ban has not been lifted.

Doesn't it look like a bitcoin laundering facility?

"Limbo is offering users with problematic/flagged BTC to exchange it quickly and securely..."

It's not hard to guess why users end up with problematic btc's. Where does the service put these coins after receiving them? Does it transfer them to other users?

"Flagged BTC? Get Clean Coins Back"

The reason for "flagged BTC" may be illegally obtained bitcoins, for example, stolen from the same user as you.

The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

It surprises me that mixers haven't yet thought of "disguising" themselves in a similar way.

[mindrust]

I am sick and tired of this mixer ban thing. We are slowly waking up to the fact that any business that doesn’t have a KYC requirement can be considered a mixer. It doesn’t matter what the actual business is, if they don’t ask your docs to see who you are, they are acting as a mixer now and should be banned in bitcointalk according to the rules we have at the moment. That applies to the casinos most of us promote as well. I know most of them have a KYC requirements in their ToS but also most of them don’t enforce it to everyone. That means they are mixers too. Let’s report them as well.

I recently did a paid review for gamblr.io and you know what I noticed? They don’t even let you withdraw unless you submit your docs. They are not doing selective KYC. The requirement applies to every player. That’s the path we are walking now.

[tbct_mt2]

Hhampuz is a very smart and intelligent manager and I'm sure he will not bring mixer to the forum knowing fully well is ban here in this forum.

I've sent Hhampuz a PM, and reported Orion Blake's topic.

It got classified as a mixer after users complained, which is totally fine. For the record I messaged theymos about launching this campaign a few days ago and would not have posted it without getting the green light on it.

No harm done!

If Hhampuz did the same like a last time he did with a service that is on verge of mixing or not mixing, he would have sent a PM to theymos for admin opinion on this.

The manager can answer us about what he has done before launching the campaign this time, and even theymos can answer us about this service too.

[GeorgeJohn]

What surprised me the most was the sky high reward, $125 per week which is irregular and far beyond anything that I've seen for something that isn't a casino. The wording it uses to advertise the business is very "strategic" and aligns basically with what a mixer does. Just wondering if I'm completely off base here or what other people think?

We should not concentrate on the pay rate and conclude that limbo is a mixer...we should concentrate on the vision and mission of limbo exchanges, to know If its a mixer or not,

From what I find out in limbo exchanges, is an exchange that trades a valuable assets, as others exchanges does, such as buying and selling crypto and swapping cryptocurrencies... I haven't seen were limbo meets the criteria of a mixer from my findings, maybe any other person can make its research and compare.

I know that Hhampuz is an experience manager, before he launched such signature campaign he has made findings.

[NeuroticFish]

You might want to visit the service thread, to quote a bit:

BTC delivered directly from major exchanges (e.g., HTX, OKEx, Binance).

I see this a very interesting concept.. for a mixer. However, it's clearly a mixer since it breaks the link between inputs and outputs without being an exchange.

Doesn't it look like a bitcoin laundering facility?

You can see it that way. Governments probably do so too, like for mixers too actually.
On the other hand, "bitcoin laundering" should not be needed if there would not be the stupid and in many cases unfair concept of tainted coins.

I am sick and tired of this mixer ban thing.

You are not alone...

I recently did a paid review for gamblr.io and you know what I noticed? They don’t even let you withdraw unless you submit your docs. They are not doing selective KYC. The requirement applies to every player. That’s the path we are walking now.

I've won a raffle for BC.Game and after doing the gambling requirements and got to the point I wanted to withdraw I was asked for ID, because, yeah, 50$ is most probably money laundering.
Far too many disguise abuses under KYC umbrella nowadays.


I think that it's up to theymos on both ANN and sig campaign (and maybe also to reconsider the mixers related rules, but I'm not that optimistic about that).

[LoyceV]

If Hhampuz did the same like a last time he did with a service that is on verge of mixing or not mixing, he would have sent a PM to theymos for admin opinion on this.

That's why I didn't report Hhampuz' topic. Even theymos makes mistakes sometimes.

I am sick and tired of this mixer ban thing.

If I'm allowed to guess, I think theymos agrees:

As with other banned mixers, please do not interpret this as a moral judgement.

But that doesn't change the fact that:

There's a giant institution with guns out there which wants to destroy every centralized, destroyable component they can find related to privacy. Every centralized privacy service is at risk of being nuked from orbit at any moment, and you want to be nowhere near the strike zone.

(click for full context)

[mindrust]

...

I just noticed your signature for example. You are carrying a signature for RAZED.com and It says "NO KYC".

Money goes in, the player makes a 99% win chance bet, wins, money goes out.

How is that any different than a mixer?

Let's report RAZED too, I think that's also a mixer. Yes there is a 1% chance to lose everything but that's the price of using a no-kyc mi... I mean a casino.

Someone with 100 btc can register 100 different accounts on that casino, do 100 different 1 btc 98-99% win chance bets, mathematically he will lose 1 or 2 of them, withdraw his coins and sail away. I am not particularly talking about this casino in your signature space, I mean every other no-kyc casinos. What I am saying applies to all of them.

Since players need to make bets before they withdraw, the player can make the safest bets and then withdraw. That way they don't risk pretty much anything. The house edge becomes the mixer fee.

[Apocollapse]

I just noticed your signature for example. You are carrying a signature for RAZED.com and It says "NO KYC".

Money goes in, the player makes a 99% win chance bet, wins, money goes out.

How is that any different than a mixer?

Let's report RAZED too, I think that's also a mixer. Yes there is a 1% chance to lose everything but that's the price of using a no-kyc mi... I mean a casino.

Someone with 100 btc can register 100 different accounts on that casino, do 100 different 1 btc 98-99% win chance bets, mathematically he will lose 1 or 2 of them, withdraw his coins and sail away. I am not particularly talking about this casino in your signature space, I mean every other no-kyc casinos. What I am saying applies to all of them.

Since players need to make bets before they withdraw, the player can make the safest bets and then withdraw. That way they don't risk pretty much anything. The house edge becomes the mixer fee.

It's different.

The "NO KYC" is a marketing.

12.2 The Casino reserves the right to check your identity prior to processing payouts and to hold any refund or withdrawals for the time needed to check your identity. In case you provide false or incompleted Personal Data, the withdrawal can be refused and the Player Account terminated, of which you will be informed by email. Reporting by the Casino to applicable regulatory bodies of actions performed by the player may be required.

I'm sure your illustration won't work because 1 BTC per account is really big, your account would be flagged. I'm even doubt if someone can get 9 from 10 accounts withdrawal successfully without submitting KYC.

A mixer can guarantee you will get the coins without any extra work unlike at casino.

[examplens]

You might want to visit the service thread, to quote a bit:

BTC delivered directly from major exchanges (e.g., HTX, OKEx, Binance).

I see this a very interesting concept.. for a mixer. However, it's clearly a mixer since it breaks the link between inputs and outputs without being an exchange.

Currently, the most active but non-coinjoin mixers, offer coins from major exchanges or directly from mining pools.

If Hhampuz did the same like a last time he did with a service that is on verge of mixing or not mixing, he would have sent a PM to theymos for admin opinion on this.

That's why I didn't report Hhampuz' topic. Even theymos makes mistakes sometimes.

The ANN thread of the Limbo service was created back in May. I believe that Hhampuz assumed that the service is in accordance with the mixer ban rule, because he has been present on the forum for months without any sanction.