Will the rich class accept reality without immigration?

[alani123]

The situation of immigration happening without government approval en masse was largely created by economic incentives.
Afterall, those that could prove  prosecution from their country are likely to receive refugee status. The issue here is that people come to the US for work, because there's corporations or outsource partners of corporations that are ready and happy to hire them.

Trump's social contract to his voters is that banning immigration will allow for higher paying jobs and lower crime rates.
And what if the crime rates don't drop? The gap will have to be filled somehow because the root of the problem is drug manufacture and distribution, of which Trump's administration isn't addressing the demand for.

Moreover, the big corporations are not just going to accept paying higher wages. So what will be their solution here? We can wait and see but I don't think it'll be very hard to predict what's going to happen. Corporations will demand for immigration to be replaced somehow. For instance, bringing seasonal workers to pick up crops so they can pay the lower wages foreign workers are ok with. In this scenario, corporations continue to be the main drivers of immigration without taking a financial hit from immigration cuts because now immigration is "legal". Let alone the fact that it'll be ridiculously easy for these workers to remain in states where their prosecution is banned when out of season and just stay in the US permanently this way.

[rat03gopoh]

Unless there's other better options than raising wages for local workers or labor policies that support corporations in certain economic conditions, then (to answer the title) not entirely. On the other hand, they become dependent on immigrant labor even after emerging from the "crisis" phase because it can suppress wages in lower sectors, which increases profit margins. Economically, they have a strong incentive to ensure the continued flow of cheap labor, in whatever form is legally permissible.

[Alpha Marine]

A lot of the people protesting against immigration don't know what they're saying. It's true that illegal immigration is not a good thing, but blaming it for the economic situation of the country screams ignorance. You'll hear them say "they're taking our jobs," and then you'll find out the person saying this has no qualification for a job other than menial jobs, but a person like this wants a job that requires a level of qualification. If you have the qualifications for a job, you will get a job.

The way I see it, these are government propaganda that are used to push the focus of the people away from how badly they have screwed up. Since people need a person to lame and the government doesn't want it to be them, they shift the attention to immigrants.
They say immigrants commit crimes, but the numbers show that out of the total number of crimes committed, only a very small percentage are by immigrants, not to mention illegal immigrants.
It's even funnier in the UK because the people spearheading the protest against immigrants are immigrants themselves. I believe that something as sensitive as immigration should be heavily regulated, but putting every wrong in a country on immigrants is a funny one. Funny how this is what Trump based his campaign on and people fell for it.

[Fortify]

Trump might seem all encompassing right now, he makes a lot of bold statements and brash decisions, but he will disappear into the wind like all presidents and politicians before him. Ultimately corporations outlast individual politicians which allows them to play a much longer game and strategy. This means that a four year period can be stunting to them but it feels like you're saying illegal immigration should be allowed "just because".

No, the citizens of America and elsewhere lose out when people enter without permission. Enough people should be let in, but they should apply and be tracked via the proper channels, maybe with a path to citizenship after a long time of continued employment in certain sectors. Otherwise I understand when people get angry that the hop the borders without any right.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You know, politically I've come to lean more to the right than the left as time has gone by--but that's a fact I tend to keep to myself in real life, lest someone mistake me for one of Trump's MAGA boys.  In fact, I'm probably just a little left of center and that's it.

Trump's move with the tariffs, his big wall that he wanted to build on the Mexican border, and whatever anti-immigration rhetoric he's been spouting (I try not to pay attention) isn't going to help the US's economy.  This country was built by immigrants and as left-leaning as this is going to sound, the diversity of our population is a strength so long as the powers that be aren't trying to divide everyone--which they are, currently.

And the ultra-wealthy can always buy an island somewhere or move to a part of the US where they're among their own social class if they don't care for the current state of immigration.  But I'm pretty sure it's just Trump and his hangers-on who are pumping out all of this divisive crapola.  They've got an agenda, and I'm 99.9% sure it has sweet fuck all to do with bringing manufacturing back to the states or some such thing.

[Webetcoins]

They don't "need" immigration, they can move their operations anywhere they want, that's why they are the rich, and we are not.

It's the smaller establishments that will be in trouble, because while some nations disagree on this, the reality is that smaller establishments use as much of immigration as any others, even like the big ones, just not in those numbers.

If you are an illegal immigrant, who should not be there and can't be shown up on papers, who do think will hire you? Nike, or the barbershop around the corner? That's why immigration helps small business owners who are willing to hire them, not the big business companies.

Immigration is not ending anywhere in the world, it's the illegal version that is getting an end.

[asriloni]

A lot of the people protesting against immigration don't know what they're saying. It's true that illegal immigration is not a good thing, but blaming it for the economic situation of the country screams ignorance. You'll hear them say "they're taking our jobs," and then you'll find out the person saying this has no qualification for a job other than menial jobs, but a person like this wants a job that requires a level of qualification. If you have the qualifications for a job, you will get a job.

Bro, nobody is even protesting against immigration as long as it's legal. The problem is that so many illegal immigrants come to the US. If you ask me whether i will welcome the immigrant, i will say "yes" as long as it's legal and meet the qualification. If it's illegal immigrant who is sneaking, overstay, and doing harm to the legal immigrant. That's the people i will never welcome.

Also illegal immigrants used as pawns to depress the wages. They're the main reason in the income inequality. That's why they deserve no emphaty or symphaty.

This sounds harsh, but it's the reality. No point to support illegal immigrants who broke the immigrations law.

[Dogedegen]

A lot of the people protesting against immigration don't know what they're saying. It's true that illegal immigration is not a good thing, but blaming it for the economic situation of the country screams ignorance. You'll hear them say "they're taking our jobs," and then you'll find out the person saying this has no qualification for a job other than menial jobs, but a person like this wants a job that requires a level of qualification. If you have the qualifications for a job, you will get a job.

The irony of your post.. Most illegal immigrants are unqualified for any serious work, and it is exactly these menial jobs that will be taken because the immigrants are willing to take even worse payment and work conditions than the own population. So yes these people are absolutely correct. Look in Europe. Most of the illegal immigrants are on welfare or working the worst possible jobs. Legal migrants are the ones who took up most menial jobs too, suppressing the wage increase that would have otherwise had to happen for those jobs.

A very qualified person does not become an illegal immigrant. They have no need to do anything illegal. They can get a good job and visa or residency without issues.

They say immigrants commit crimes, but the numbers show that out of the total number of crimes committed, only a very small percentage are by immigrants, not to mention illegal immigrants.

Complete lie and fabrication. Certain types of immigrants commit certain types of crimes at rates 10-100x times more frequently than the local population per capita. Most of the violent crimes are committed by immigrants. You don't even know the basics of statistics and are defending some very bad people.. Information about this is highly manipulated and suppressed. If you read mainstream media and use google to find information about immigrant crime all you will find is misinformation.



Nothing to see here I guess, all imaginary.  

Also illegal immigrants used as pawns to depress the wages. They're the main reason in the income inequality. That's why they deserve no emphaty or symphaty.

This sounds harsh, but it's the reality. No point to support illegal immigrants who broke the immigrations law.

Yes you understand it. This is one of the reasons why real wages are horrible yet companies keep making record profits and the richest are getting massively richer. If there was no influx of illegals there would be very few people to take these jobs with junk salaries.

[Alpha Marine]

A very qualified person does not become an illegal immigrant. They have no need to do anything illegal. They can get a good job and visa or residency without issues.

Approximately 31% of illegal immigrants in the US have a college or bachelor's degree. Thats a big number. If you think all illegal immigrant have no qualification whatsoever, then you're just proving my point that most of the people protesting it don't know what they're saying.

Complete lie and fabrication. Certain types of immigrants commit certain types of crimes at rates 100-1000x times more frequently than the local population per capita. Most of the violent crimes are committed by immigrants. You don't even know the basics of statistics and are defending some very bad people.. Information about this is highly manipulated and suppressed. If you read mainstream media and use google to find information about immigrant crime all you will find is misinformation.

This is 2025, mate, you can't say whatever you want because you feel like it, but that's on you. I should disregard all the research and investigations done by professionals and believe that have no fact? I should just take your word for it? C'mon mate. You guys always talk about how mainstream media spread lies all the time and now, you went as far as saying everything I will see online about this is false, but your word isn't?
 This is the data according to American Immigration Council

The American Immigration Council compared crime data to demographic data from 1980 to 2022, the most recent data available. The data showed that as the immigrant share of the population grew, the crime rate declined. In 1980, immigrants made up 6.2 percent of the U.S. population, and the total crime rate was 5,900 crimes per 100,000 people. By 2022, the share of immigrants had more than doubled, to 13.9 percent, while the total crime rate had dropped by 60.4 percent, to 2,335 crimes per 100,000 people. Specifically, the violent crime rate fell by 34.5 percent and the property crime rate fell by 63.3 percent.

if you want to convince me, you should bring proof. bring data that stats otherwise or else, you have no case. But the fact that you call people "Very bad people" simply because they're illegal immigrants tells me all I need to know.

[retaur]

Have we worked out WHY the rich and ruling classes are against immigration so much?

Is it more the fact they don't need to be loyal to where they are so have the ability to be more free if they decide they don't want to stay where they are... Perhaps it is more that one - but the stats show a lot of migrants stay and contribute to an economy for a long time (typically) even if they do send some money back to relatives/contacts abroad.



If you get rid of immigrants from most wealthy countries you get employment gaps, skills gaps and market shortages (populations are declining as it is and inflation's only sustainable if other metrics are growing).
I think a lot of migrants wind up finding shortages and filling it with the peers better than the natives to a certain area - they're also often more motivated because they're paid higher in terms relative to what they're used to.

[mindrust]

Trump is not against immigration though. He is against illegal immigration. It is a big difference. As long as a worker with a certain skillset is really needed in the US, he won’t have much difficulty to get a job.

There are also loopholes in the immigration law that enables people to hire their friends, relatives etc and Trump exactly sees what’s happening. That looks “legal” on paper but in reality it does more harm than good to the country.

Companies? If the conditions are not good enough for their operations, they will move their hq’s to somewhere else but so far they don’t seem like they want to.

[Dogedegen]

A very qualified person does not become an illegal immigrant. They have no need to do anything illegal. They can get a good job and visa or residency without issues.

Approximately 31% of illegal immigrants in the US have a college or bachelor's degree. Thats a big number. If you think all illegal immigrant have no qualification whatsoever, then you're just proving my point that most of the people protesting it don't know what they're saying.

That does not make you a qualified person. A lot of degrees are in this statistic that are not useful and issued by very easy universities. You can get a degree that sounds good on paper for $3000. The reality of modernity is that everyone and their village clown have a degree in something, that does not make you a productive member of society. High tech and high demand workers all arrive here through legal means. If they don't, they have something bad to hide. They are the standard kind of immigrant criminal scum.

This is 2025, mate, you can't say whatever you want because you feel like it, but that's on you. I should disregard all the research and investigations done by professionals and believe that have no fact? I should just take your word for it? C'mon mate. You guys always talk about how mainstream media spread lies all the time and now, you went as far as saying everything I will see online about this is false, but your word isn't?
 This is the data according to American Immigration Council

The American Immigration Council compared crime data to demographic data from 1980 to 2022, the most recent data available. The data showed that as the immigrant share of the population grew, the crime rate declined. In 1980, immigrants made up 6.2 percent of the U.S. population, and the total crime rate was 5,900 crimes per 100,000 people. By 2022, the share of immigrants had more than doubled, to 13.9 percent, while the total crime rate had dropped by 60.4 percent, to 2,335 crimes per 100,000 people. Specifically, the violent crime rate fell by 34.5 percent and the property crime rate fell by 63.3 percent.

if you want to convince me, you should bring proof. bring data that stats otherwise or else, you have no case. But the fact that you call people "Very bad people" simply because they're illegal immigrants tells me all I need to know.

This is one of the first Google search results if you enter immigrant crime data... lol

Another fabrication that you choose to blindly believe because you don't understand basic science. This is the exact kind of junk and manipulated science that I talked about earlier. Immigration percentage of population and total overall crime rate going down have nothing to do with each other. That is a correlation and not a causation. I have given you real data. The only data that matters for immigrant crime is per capita crime per country or ethnicity of origin. That shows a very bad picture, for US blacks and for all immigrant populations except some Asians, Indians and the such.

Anyway how dense are you dude? How can you be this blind? It's like an energy drink company giving you a study that energy drinks are safe for kids.. wake up. if you are still a kid or teenager that would explain this otherwise I have no words..



The picture is the same in every EU country where these type of illegal aliens are found. They are criminal, violent, and uneducated scum. They should be shot on arrival. Deporting them is not an economically feasible solution.

[Alpha Marine]

That does not make you a qualified person. A lot of degrees are in this statistic that are not useful and issued by very easy universities. You can get a degree that sounds good on paper for $3000. The reality of modernity is that everyone and their village clown have a degree in something, that does not make you a productive member of society. High tech and high demand workers all arrive here through legal means. If they don't, they have something bad to hide. They are the standard kind of immigrant criminal scum.

Typical. Make assumptions, its all you do. make assumption and reject every single fact that points out the flawed aspect of your ideology.

Anyway how dense are you dude? How can you be this blind? It's like an energy drink company giving you a study that energy drinks are safe.. wake up, if you are still a kid or teenager that would explain this otherwise I have no words..



The picture is the same in every EU country where these type of illegal aliens are found. They are criminal, violent, and uneducated scum. They should be shot on arrival. Deporting them is not an economically feasible solution.

Like I said, typical.
I can bring you dozens of research, but of course, you will say all are fabricated lies, but what do you do in return, instead bringing credible facts why I am wrong, you give me an image that any kid on a device can make and tell me it's authentic. No link, no source of the image, just an image. It's laughable at this point.
Then what do you do when a person doesn't buy youa  silly agenda and tries to be logical by bringing fact? Insult. You insult the person and say deregotory things about the person. Its the typical playbook. 

[Zlantann]

Bro, nobody is even protesting against immigration as long as it's legal. The problem is that so many illegal immigrants come to the US. If you ask me whether i will welcome the immigrant, i will say "yes" as long as it's legal and meet the qualification. If it's illegal immigrant who is sneaking, overstay, and doing harm to the legal immigrant. That's the people i will never welcome.

Also illegal immigrants used as pawns to depress the wages. They're the main reason in the income inequality. That's why they deserve no emphaty or symphaty.

This sounds harsh, but it's the reality. No point to support illegal immigrants who broke the immigrations law.

Entering a country illegally is wrong and the government has every right to send you back to your home country. But the US economy has been structured to an extent that these illegals play a very important role. Many organisations might go bankrupt without these cheap labourers, except that the government gives them financial bailouts. Citizens might not be willing to do some of the jobs these illegals do. But this shouldn't be a reason to encourage illegal immigration.

Trump has also made it difficult for people to come into the US legally. His ban on several immigration programmes is affecting the operations of many organisations. He is even weaponising immigration. The US banned the issuance of visas to many countries until they agreed to receive deportees from third countries.  The impact of Trump’s mishandling of immigration issues will be felt by the US economy for a long time.

[Dogedegen]

Like I said, typical.
I can bring you dozens of research, but of course, you will say all are fabricated lies, but what do you do in return, instead bringing credible facts why I am wrong, you give me an image that any kid on a device can make and tell me it's authentic. No link, no source of the image, just an image. It's laughable at this point.

Copying links from the first page of Google is not real research, it is reading into mainstream propaganda curated for the sheep. You are most likely a kid or a very stupid adult.

Then what do you do when a person doesn't buy youa  silly agenda and tries to be logical by bringing fact? Insult. You insult the person and say deregotory things about the person. Its the typical playbook.  

You support criminal scum which makes you a criminal as well. There is no reason to be nice to you. Go back to the country that you came from parasite. All illegal immigrants should be shot on sight.

Entering a country illegally is wrong and the government has every right to send you back to your home country. But the US economy has been structured to an extent that these illegals play a very important role. Many organisations might go bankrupt without these cheap labourers, except that the government gives them financial bailouts. Citizens might not be willing to do some of the jobs these illegals do. But this shouldn't be a reason to encourage illegal immigration.

This is not good for the market in the long run. Organizations which can't win without crime should go bankrupt. That is part of the market competition and self regulation. Efficient and effective businesses survive and others go bust. That is how it should be.

Trump has also made it difficult for people to come into the US legally. His ban on several immigration programmes is affecting the operations of many organisations. He is even weaponising immigration. The US banned the issuance of visas to many countries until they agreed to receive deportees from third countries.  The impact of Trump’s mishandling of immigration issues will be felt by the US economy for a long time.

The only thing that matters if whether Americans want more migrants or not? The clear answer is NO. If your countries were any better you would not be trying to come here. So how can anyone from any country that is worse try lecturing the USA about anything?

There are also loopholes in the immigration law that enables people to hire their friends, relatives etc and Trump exactly sees what’s happening. That looks “legal” on paper but in reality it does more harm than good to the country.

The democratic paradise! Every criminal scum loves to abuse these things like the user Alpha Marine. These third world people are mostly the same, undeveloped. If they would stoop so low to enter a country illegally that tells you everything you need to know about them. When have you ever heard of a normal person from a developed country wanting to enter another country illegally?   Every post should contain this data..



Every single migrant infested place in the UK has turned into a hell...take a look at Croydon, it looks more like the worst parts of South Africa than England..

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123370/unemployment-rate-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

This does not even factor in how many people have fake jobs because they are employed by criminal fronts like barber shops, laundromats and others so the situation is even worse. If a small street has 10 barber shops that tells you something about the people that live there lol

[AVE5]

Trump's social contract to his voters is that banning immigration will allow for higher paying jobs and lower crime rates.

His mission to increase workers payments might really sound nice and interesting to those who might find the the proposed deal benefit able but I think they don't think both sides didn't not consider it effects will encourage inflation and more depreciation to the dollar because there's going to be increased on taxes and cost of living will grow expensive and the so higher payments they receives won't be as much valued as when holding sustainable amount.

Moreover, the big corporations are not just going to accept paying higher wages. So what will be their solution here? We can wait and see but I don't think it'll be very hard to predict what's going to happen. Corporations will demand for immigration to be replaced somehow. For instance, bringing seasonal workers to pick up crops so they can pay the lower wages foreign workers are ok with. In this scenario, corporations continue to be the main drivers of immigration without taking a financial hit from immigration cuts because now immigration is "legal". Let alone the fact that it'll be ridiculously easy for these workers to remain in states where their prosecution is banned when out of season and just stay in the US permanently this way.

After banning immigrants and the citizens and the legal residents couldn't do most of the Jobs due to how energytic exorbitant the nature of Job maybe and yet corporations aren't ready to increase payment, I'm sure Trump will lift back the ban because the US government can't emphasis on individual companies to increase workers payments at no essence of the corporations benefiting from it. Maybe Trump should be reminded that increments of workers payments is reviewed base on workers efforts that brings benefits to the company. We can just watch the drama unfold on due time because this approach could lead to recession because both corporations productions will be affected, workers will panic and it'll become difficult for tax payers to pay their taxes while the economy suffers it in an overall.

[abhiseshakana]

The situation of immigration happening without government approval en masse was largely created by economic incentives.
Afterall, those that could prove  prosecution from their country are likely to receive refugee status. The issue here is that people come to the US for work, because there's corporations or outsource partners of corporations that are ready and happy to hire them.

Trump's social contract to his voters is that banning immigration will allow for higher paying jobs and lower crime rates.
And what if the crime rates don't drop? The gap will have to be filled somehow because the root of the problem is drug manufacture and distribution, of which Trump's administration isn't addressing the demand for.

Moreover, the big corporations are not just going to accept paying higher wages. So what will be their solution here? We can wait and see but I don't think it'll be very hard to predict what's going to happen. Corporations will demand for immigration to be replaced somehow. For instance, bringing seasonal workers to pick up crops so they can pay the lower wages foreign workers are ok with. In this scenario, corporations continue to be the main drivers of immigration without taking a financial hit from immigration cuts because now immigration is "legal". Let alone the fact that it'll be ridiculously easy for these workers to remain in states where their prosecution is banned when out of season and just stay in the US permanently this way.

The tug-of-war between the Trump administration (an administration that champions tough immigration policies) and the private sector is not simply a matter of cheap versus expensive economics, but rather a matter of political signaling, the sustainability of industrial operations, and short-term versus long-term trade-offs. With a populist voter base, crackdowns on immigrants enhance political legitimacy, and the voter base also demands tough enforcement (there is pressure to demonstrate political results, such as arrests/deportations, despite the economic impact). These policies are often prioritized regardless of short-term economic consequences.

The government may gain political benefits from austerity, but the real economic costs (labor shortages, inflation, supply chain disruptions) drive private actors to seek compensation through lobbying, technological adaptation (medium-term investments in technology, sorting machines, robotic harvesters, labor management applications, and increased investment in sectors that capitalize on the substitution of capital for labor), and ultimately, operational restructuring (considering relocating some processes to lower-cost countries).

The ultimate outcome depends on whether policymakers choose a pragmatic compromise or continue to emphasize enforcement without mitigation.

[Dogedegen]

His mission to increase workers payments might really sound nice and interesting to those who might find the the proposed deal benefit able but I think they don't think both sides didn't not consider it effects will encourage inflation and more depreciation to the dollar because there's going to be increased on taxes and cost of living will grow expensive and the so higher payments they receives won't be as much valued as when holding sustainable amount.

This does not make sense. Republican politicians vote for reduction of taxes not increase in taxes, thus your whole thing is wrong.

After banning immigrants and the citizens and the legal residents couldn't do most of the Jobs due to how energytic exorbitant the nature of Job maybe and yet corporations aren't ready to increase payment,

You are confusing legal immigrants with illegal aliens. Most of illegal aliens, which should not be called migrants at all, are unskilled, criminal and deranged scum. They are the ones that Trump's administration wants to kick out. The economy will do just fine without them.   The funny thing about this that every objective analysis shows a detrimental picture to society as a whole. A recent analysis on immigrant contributions in Denmark showed that the country would be better off without any kind of migrants at all. 

The government may gain political benefits from austerity, but the real economic costs (labor shortages, inflation, supply chain disruptions) drive private actors to seek compensation through lobbying, technological

Also wrong. Migration both illegal and legal drives inflation up. With less migration you have less inflation, all other things kept the same of course.

[slapper]

The H-2A visa program already does precisely what you are describing. It has been running for decades. We pretend there is a "debate" about immigration when 250,000+ seasonal workers pass through legal channels every year, get paid subminimum wage through housing deductions, and some how 15-20% just. . . don't leave. Nobody actually forces them to leave because the farms need them back next season and ICE conveniently does not look to the side

This theater is interesting: the voters receive the emotional satisfaction of "border security", corporations receive their labor arbitrage, and politicians get to run the same campaign every four years. The thing of crime rate is even better. The undocumented immigrants are less prone to crime than the citizens since the threat of deportation is a nightmare. However, we are not engaging in an evidence-based discussion, we are engaging in an anxiety-management discussion. When wages don't go up and crime doesn't go down, the explanation won't be "our model was wrong", it'll be "we didn't go far enough"

If corporations truly were unable to access cheap labour, would they automate, offshore or actually raise wages? I think the first two are the more likely and this whole argument is about sharing the scarcity among workers while leaving capital mobility alone

[Hamza2424]

A lot of the people protesting against immigration don't know what they're saying. It's true that illegal immigration is not a good thing, but blaming it for the economic situation of the country screams ignorance. You'll hear them say "they're taking our jobs," and then you'll find out the person saying this has no qualification for a job other than menial jobs, but a person like this wants a job that requires a level of qualification. If you have the qualifications for a job, you will get a job.

Don't tell me you are talking about that fat guy whose video is trending in UK for the past few days, who said they are taking our jobs and when asked, he said I did not had the qualifications though haha. The video was very funny and salute to that reporter who asked the questions anyway bro I totally agree with you, and one thing is also for sure that many people who move their are doing this because of the opportunities and because they could earn in $ and when they convert them into their local currency, they can buy more. That's not rocket science in here.

The way I see it, these are government propaganda that are used to push the focus of the people away from how badly they have screwed up. Since people need a person to lame and the government doesn't want it to be them, they shift the attention to immigrants.

Nah bro they just forcing people to take the H2a or h2b visa so they can charge them yearly haha you are not understanding they are going after profits here too, and speaking about the drug side, they would never lay a finger on this sector because this is bringing them billions haha.

They say immigrants commit crimes, but the numbers show that out of the total number of crimes committed, only a very small percentage are by immigrants, not to mention illegal immigrants.
It's even funnier in the UK because the people spearheading the protest against immigrants are immigrants themselves. I believe that something as sensitive as immigration should be heavily regulated, but putting every wrong in a country on immigrants is a funny one. Funny how this is what Trump based his campaign on and people fell for it.

This is so true, but there are people from other countries who form a community not good but they back each other they force and motivate their people to not do something stupid that would cause trouble for all of them, they basically doing the right thing.