Core and spam debate - easy explanation

[alpenglow411]

when immutable spam is placed on the blockchain, it cannot be removed.  keep your goddamn anime frog pictures on ethereum or solana.

[headingnorth]

Bitcoin's greatest attack vector are the developers themselves. Core devs have been compromised ever since segwit and taproot.

Buying off the developers would not be hard to do for deep-pocket Wall Street crypto VCs like Pantera Capital, Andreeson Horowitz,
Animoca Brands, Taproot Wizards, billionaire shitcoiners like Buterin, Hoskinson, Bankman-Fried, Kwon Do, Justin Sun, etc.

Core devs have in fact long been funded by such entities so it is no surprise that bitcoin is slowly turning into a memecoin and a joke over time.

[alpenglow411]

this entire argument is ridiculous.  you're either for the defacement of bitcoin as a digital currency, or opposed to it.  this is worse than defacing currency, because the defacement is immutable... permanent.  and it doesn't just affect your coins, it affects *everyones coins*.  moronic.

[PepeLapiu2]

this entire argument is ridiculous.  you're either for the defacement of bitcoin as a digital currency, or opposed to it.  this is worse than defacing currency, because the defacement is immutable... permanent.  and it doesn't just affect your coins, it affects *everyones coins*.  moronic.

Exactly.
I can't stand those who stay stupid shit like "It's nothing new. It happened before and Bitcoin survived"

That's like saying you survived a gun shot once so you might as well paint a target on your back and hang out at a gun range.

Bitcoin is anti-fragile because bitcoiners fight for it, not because 0's and 1's are somehow invincible.

Join the fight, run Knots
https://bitcoinknots.org/

[alpenglow411]

what will core devs argue next?  that car drivers should be able to bring their lit flamethrowers to the gas station pump because being disallowed from doing so is cancel culture?  that the 'anti-flamethrowers at gas station people' are censorship nazis and it violates their freedom of expression?  

[PepeLapiu2]

Guys, I love you all and I apologize about not having any merit points to give to all of you.
This fight is just starting. Core can no longer say "We can't fight spam, and even if we could, we shouldn't because disallowing garbage on Bitcoin is censorship and out sponsors would not approve".
Core is done for.

Gloria Zhao should go public, say that she is cleaning house, fire a bunch of shitcoin devs, especially Peter Todd, and publish the list of core donors.

[Wind_FURY]

when immutable spam is placed on the blockchain, it cannot be removed.  keep your goddamn anime frog pictures on ethereum or solana.

That's the ideal situation, and the pro-filters' debate is by imposing filters, then "maybe", dick pics and fart sounds lovers will move to those blockchains. BUT there's definitely a debate that they won't because despite the limits in OP_RETURN, there are developers who will find ways to embed arbitrary data in the blockchain.

BitcoinStamps is one of those "protocols".

[PepeLapiu2]

That's the ideal situation, and the pro-filters' debate is be imposing filters, then "maybe", dick pics and fart sounds lovers will move to those blockchains.

That is a pretty dumb arguement. We know for absolutely sure that doing nothing about it only makes the problem worst. You think filters won't do anything? You think filters won't reduce the amount of spam? Guess what buddy, if you are correct, if they don't work at all, than we end up exactly where we are heading right now - spam getting worst every day.

BUT there's definitely a debate that they won't because despite the limits in OP_RETURN, there are developers who will find ways to embed arbitrary data in the blockchain.

BitcoinStamps is one of those "protocols".

I see what you did there. Pretty sneaky!

The op_returm filters are working beautifully. And you know that is a fact because, you switch from talking about op_return limit filter, to talking about any arbitrary data anywhere else on chain.  
But the reality is that the op_return data limit filter is meant to...well...limit the data in op_return.
And as it where, over 99% of op_return transactions are under that 80 bytes limit.
Now is there arbitrary data over 80 bytes in fake pubkeys and other methods of spamming? Most likely. But the op_returm filter doesn't touch that. It's not what the filter is built for.

Your arguement is basically saying that the speed bump in front of my house doesn't work as slowing down traffic because two streets over, there are no speed bumps and people speed on that street.

We need more speed bumps, we need more filters.

Translation: "I do not understand why Bitcoin's neutrality is so important.

Bitcoin is neutral money, not a neutral cloud data storage service.

I also happen to believe in the right to guns and the right to free speech. That doesn't mean I should store my guns and my speech mp3's on chain.

I also believe in freedom of religion. That doesn't mean I want the entire Bitcoin network to shut down on x-mas and Easter Sunday.

Also I am secretly turned on by all of these dick pics."

Nobody here judges you. It's okay if dick pics secretly turn you on. Just please keep them on your machine, not on the 25,000 nodes of Bitcoin. Mmmkay?

[Wind_FURY]

That's the ideal situation, and the pro-filters' debate is be imposing filters, then "maybe", dick pics and fart sounds lovers will move to those blockchains.

That is a pretty dumb arguement. We know for absolutely sure that doing nothing about it only makes the problem worst. You think filters won't do anything? You think filters won't reduce the amount of spam? Guess what buddy, if you are correct, if they don't work at all, than we end up exactly where we are heading right now - spam getting worst every day.

I believe the fee market will prevent spam. It has worked before, and it will work again and again AND AGAIN. The filters are useless because this will encourage dick pics and fart sounds lovers to send their transactions to miners to include them in their blocks.

 BUT there's definitely a debate that they won't because despite the limits in OP_RETURN, there are developers who will find ways to embed arbitrary data in the blockchain.

BitcoinStamps is one of those "protocols".

I see what you did there. Pretty sneaky!

-- Snip --

I'm merely talking about Bitcoin Stamps, ser, and the possibility that it will also be used to embed arbitrary data more and more to where it will be more harmful to the network - the UTXO set.

[PepeLapiu2]

I believe the fee market will prevent spam. It has worked before, and it will work again and again AND AGAIN.

That is what they keep telling you for the last 8 years. And every year it gets worst.
The stoopit monkey jpegs gave way to the taproot wizards, than that gave way to the runes and ordinals and rare SATs. Every time they tell you the fee market will chase them away. And it keeps getting worst.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
What signal will tell you it's gone too far? Dick pics will do it for ya? Child porn? Pictures of your daughter naked? Nuclear launch codes? Snuff videos? How how much of Bitcoin. Do they have to turn into a joke memecoin before you wake the f**k up?

Do yourself a favor. Next time they tell you the fee market will take care of them, that you just have to sit down and shut up and open wide open the op_return, just ask them this simple question:

By what f**king magical mechanism will the fee market push out spammers only and not push out bitcoiners? Is this some kind of voodoo racist fee market that targets only spammers? Laser pointer fee market?

The retarded fee market arguement didn't push them out when the fees were at $200 for one block confirm a year and a half ago. They are still here. What a stoopit thing to tell people!

The filters are useless because this will encourage dick pics and fart sounds lovers to send their transactions to miners to include them in their blocks.

Yup! That's the dumb f**king crap they been feeding you the whole time - we have to make more and more room for spam and give them a seat at the table otherwise they'll screw up the UTXO.

Once the chain is full of child porn and dick pics, your stoopit pristine UTXO set will be worthless. Bitcoin will have been turned into a shit show. It will be too late.

Tell me, what's the value of a pretty little set of UTXO for a free dick pic repository these days?

It's very clear to me you don't understand how filters work. I strongly suggest you read this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5562641.msg65932273#msg65932273

BUT there's definitely a debate that they won't because despite the limits in OP_RETURN, there are developers who will find ways to embed arbitrary data in the blockchain.

Again, more of the dumb shit they been feeding you - we have to make more room for filth and spam because they'll find an other way in and it's not even worth trying. After all, it's just the most disruptive technology ever created. What's so important about that than jpegs, right? ....right!

I'm merely talking about Bitcoin Stamps, ser, and the possibility that it will also be used to embed arbitrary data more and more to where it will be more harmful to the network - the UTXO set.

I think you mean OpenTimeStamps, no? An other creation of fucking core devs.
How much do they have to fuck up Bitcoin before you wake the fuck up?

[Wind_FURY]

I believe the fee market will prevent spam. It has worked before, and it will work again and again AND AGAIN.

That is what they keep telling you for the last 8 years. And every year it gets worst.
The stoopit monkey jpegs gave way to the taproot wizards, than that gave way to the runes and ordinals and rare SATs. Every time they tell you the fee market will chase them away. And it keeps getting worst.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
What signal will tell you it's gone too far? Dick pics will do it for ya? Child porn? Pictures of your daughter naked? Nuclear launch codes? Snuff videos? How how much of Bitcoin. Do they have to turn into a joke memecoin before you wake the f**k up?

Do yourself a favor. Next time they tell you the fee market will take care of them, that you just have to sit down and shut up and open wide open the op_return, just ask them this simple question:

By what f**king magical mechanism will the fee market push out spammers only and not push out bitcoiners? Is this some kind of voodoo racist fee market that targets only spammers? Laser pointer fee market?

The retarded fee market arguement didn't push them out when the fees were at $200 for one block confirm a year and a half ago. They are still here. What a stoopit thing to tell people!

The filters are useless because this will encourage dick pics and fart sounds lovers to send their transactions to miners to include them in their blocks.

Yup! That's the dumb f**king crap they been feeding you the whole time - we have to make more and more room for spam and give them a seat at the table otherwise they'll screw up the UTXO.

Once the chain is full of child porn and dick pics, your stoopit pristine UTXO set will be worthless. Bitcoin will have been turned into a shit show. It will be too late.

Tell me, what's the value of a pretty little set of UTXO for a free dick pic repository these days?

It's very clear to me you don't understand how filters work. I strongly suggest you read this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5562641.msg65932273#msg65932273

BUT there's definitely a debate that they won't because despite the limits in OP_RETURN, there are developers who will find ways to embed arbitrary data in the blockchain.

Again, more of the dumb shit they been feeding you - we have to make more room for filth and spam because they'll find an other way in and it's not even worth trying. After all, it's just the most disruptive technology ever created. What's so important about that than jpegs, right? ....right!

I'm merely talking about Bitcoin Stamps, ser, and the possibility that it will also be used to embed arbitrary data more and more to where it will be more harmful to the network - the UTXO set.

I think you mean OpenTimeStamps, no? An other creation of fucking core devs.
How much do they have to fuck up Bitcoin before you wake the fuck up?

There's the problem. Because the network is agnostic about what's "spam" and what's not "spam", those transactions that some users call "spam" might not actually be "spam" for other users. For them, they're mere transactions that they want to be included in the next block, and they're willing to pay the fee for it to be included in the next block.

[PepeLapiu]

Here's the problem. Because the network is agnostic about what's "spam" and what's not "spam", those transactions that some users call "spam" might not actually be "spam" for other users. For them, they're mere transactions that they want to be included in the next block, and they're willing to pay the fee for it to be included in the next block.

This is the condescending atitude coming from the core shills. They claim they can't decide what is spam and what is not spam, therefore the nodes should not be allowed to decide for themselves.

The core shills are saying: "We don't know what spam is, therefore we will blow upen the op_return filter and we will not provide any filters to the node operators so that they may decide for themselves what constitutes spam and what doesn't constitute spam.".

They are forcing you to put everything in your mempool, and relay it to other nodes, no matter how you feel about it, no matter if you want to keep bitcoin as money, not as a file hosting service.

[Wind_FURY]

Here's the problem. Because the network is agnostic about what's "spam" and what's not "spam", those transactions that some users call "spam" might not actually be "spam" for other users. For them, they're mere transactions that they want to be included in the next block, and they're willing to pay the fee for it to be included in the next block.

This is the condescending atitude coming from the core shills. They claim they can't decide what is spam and what is not spam, therefore the nodes should not be allowed to decide for themselves.

The core shills are saying: "We don't know what spam is, therefore we will blow upen the op_return filter and we will not provide any filters to the node operators so that they may decide for themselves what constitutes spam and what doesn't constitute spam.".

They are forcing you to put everything in your mempool, and relay it to other nodes, no matter how you feel about it, no matter if you want to keep bitcoin as money, not as a file hosting service.

 

"Condescending". Haha.

That's simply not true. What's actually condescending is the filter-bois actually taking the power for themselves to try and censor the transactions that they don't like. Pardon me, but it's technically ineffective, and as long as it isn't effective then why should the whole community follow that path?

[Cekikafa]

when immutable spam is placed on the blockchain, it cannot be removed.  keep your goddamn anime frog pictures on ethereum or solana.

Bitcoin Blockchain does not forget.

[PepeLapiu]

What's actually condescending is the filter-bois actually taking the power for themselves to try and censor the transactions that they don't like. Pardon me, but it's technically ineffective, and as long as it isn't effective then why should the whole community follow that path?

I'm confused. You say the filters don't work, that they are in effective, yet you also claim they are a form of censorship. Which is it?

If filters don't work at censoring anything, how can they also be considered censorship? That is circular logic.

[Wind_FURY]

What's actually condescending is the filter-bois actually taking the power for themselves to try and censor the transactions that they don't like. Pardon me, but it's technically ineffective, and as long as it isn't effective then why should the whole community follow that path?

I'm confused. You say the filters don't work, that they are in effective, yet you also claim they are a form of censorship. Which is it?

A form of "censorship" that doesn't technically work because users could still directly send those transactions to the miners to be included in the next block.

Filter-bois are like the old system admin, trying to "censor" traffic that it doesn't like. It's so stupid.

  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

But you do you, and welcome to my filter (ignore) list.

 

[PepeLapiu2]

A form of "censorship" that doesn't technically work because users could still directly send those transactions to the miners to be included in the next block.

Exactly. You are basically claiming that filters are censorship that don't censor anyone.

Here is what you need to understand:

In a decentralized Bitcoin network, filters would be effective at preventing spam. But with less than 5 pools controlling over 80% of the hash power, they have effectivelly erected a cartel of miners to bypass the will of the nodes with the help of spamware like LibreRelay and SlipStream.

The nodes are there to keep users and miners honest and enforce the rules of the network. When miners are ignoring the nodes, it's time for the nodes to step up and put the miners in their place.

And this is what we are working to do with Knots and BIP110.

If the pools keep ignoring the filters we will move it to the consensus level and make sure miners behave.

[ertil]

If the pools keep ignoring the filters we will move it to the consensus level and make sure miners behave.

And then, by having 1% or less hashrate on your side, you will have just another altcoin.

I wonder if it is even technically possible to create a fully spam-resistant coin, even if you design everything from scratch. Spamming in altcoins like Grin is possible, even if you have just public key cryptography, without any complex scripting language.

Also, if the price of LukeCoin will be 100x lower than BTC, or worse, then guess what: 100 sat/vB transaction on your coin will be as easy to do, as 1 sat/vB on BTC. Which means, that if you turn against the economic majority, then spamming your network will be as cheap, as spamming altcoins is.

Another question is if you can even launch it properly, without hacking the difficulty adjustment algorithm. Because by having 1% hashrate, you could mine a block or two per day, on average.

[PepeLapiu2]

And then, by having 1% or less hashrate on your side, you will have just another altcoin.

Your statement assumes two fallacies:

- Fallacy #1: Miners decide the direction of Bitcoin. They don't. If that was the truth, the majority of miners would choose to ignore the havenings and do whatever they want as miners are now operating as a cartel with less than a handful of pools controlling 80% of the hash power.

- Fallacy #2: There will be a separate coin created, such as a Lukecoin. How ridiculous! It's a sorft fork, like the Segwit and Taproot Softworks. No new coin will be created.

I wonder if it is even technically possible to create a fully spam-resistant coin, even if you design everything from scratch. Spamming in altcoins like Grin is possible, even if you have just public key cryptography, without any complex scripting language.

Such theoretical spam free coin might be nice to imagine but not required. We just have to be sufficiently hostile to spam to keep the spam to a minimum. This would be opposite of the core policy of getting more and more permissive to spam.
Currently, over 40% of the blocks are pure spam. Clearly, that is too much.

Also, if the price of LukeCoin will be 100x lower than BTC, or worse, then guess what: 100 sat/vB transaction on your coin will be as easy to do, as 1 sat/vB on BTC. Which means, that if you turn against the economic majority, then spamming your network will be as cheap, as spamming altcoins is.

Again, there won't be a separate coin. And I don't see a scenario where the majority of Bitcoiners prefer to stay with a coin full of spam.

Another question is if you can even launch it properly, without hacking the difficulty adjustment algorithm. Because by having 1% hashrate, you could mine a block or two per day, on average.

September will be an interesting month for sure.

[ertil]

Miners decide the direction of Bitcoin. They don't.

Economic majority decides about things. And it is not on BIP-110 side. If if would be, then regular transactions would replace all of the spammy ones, and the spam would be sitting unconfirmed for months or years.

It's a sorft fork, like the Segwit and Taproot Softworks. No new coin will be created.

Soft-forks can be activated properly, if you have hashrate majority on your side. If not, then by being in a minority, you will land on a minority chain, if your client would reject blocks produced by unupgraded nodes. That's why reaching for example 90% hashrate support is important. Currently, it is set to 55% for BIP-110, but in practice, it is now below 1%, and it will probably stay there.

Edit: Also, economic majority can be measured by locking coins on a proper Script. For example: https://github.com/jlopp/BIP-110-Futures

https://nostr.ae/nevent1qqsvegvp0kw8c7c70yptgnuurl2uqhmshj0uzzkc3m84uufemqpqf5qprpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezumr0wpczuum0vd5kzmp0qgs0w2xeumnsfq6cuuynpaw2vjcfwacdnzwvmp59flnp3mdfez3czpsrqsqqqqqpl7rkms

Back in September I publicly offered to enter into a wager with anyone who was claiming that Bitcoin Core v30 was going to result in a massive node crash / network outage. Nary a Knotzi took me up on it, to my great chagrin.

Today I'm making a similar, but better, offer to BIP-110 supporters. I propose we enter into a trustless fork futures contract. I'll take the side that will make the deposited BTC only spendable if BIP-110 fails, you take the side that's only spendable upon success.

Minimum 1 BTC wager to make it worth my time. Come take my coins and show us your conviction! Who will have the guts to put their money where their mouth is?

So far, people are not taking that bet, which means, that economic majority is not on BIP-110 side. Which means, that there is no whale, willing to put 1 BTC in such contract. That says something about BIP-110 support.