Mirror Copy Fork

[FREIVOGEL231]

I was thinking about fork since it's considered a main question now
Everyone one is talking about split in the network at some point
and we know that PoW is the main judgement in that case of 51% attack


What happens if someone one started the fork at the beginning
Just uses Genesis block as start parent block rebuilt every block towards future
Scene we have all the database for transactions nounce previous block hash
Every thing
He can mimic the hole chain as if the chain Infront of a mirror
Think of it as Big Endian and Little Endian block
He can make it isolated or offline
With a series of orphan blocks in the future timed so that the orphan block becoming the tip of his chain in the future
Wouldn't that be easy no hashing power needed all you need is inputs which is available
And planning it carefully you just make it online

The question is that theory applicable?

Since the hole transactions in the looser chain gets back to memepool
Which means the nodes relook at it from the beginning
Can orphan blocks contain manipulated transactions that alter the hole history of the block chain

What happens if that copy of the chain was multiplelied I mean many copies
This increase the attack power and confuse nodes
It may even creat scattered chain

I need your opinion

[FinneysTrueVision]

With a series of orphan blocks in the future timed so that the orphan block becoming the tip of his chain in the future
Wouldn't that be easy no hashing power needed all you need is inputs which is available
And planning it carefully you just make it online

Without hashing power it is not possible to reorganize the history of Bitcoin. You would just be spamming a bunch of invalid transactions that would be rejected by nodes.

[tanya21owens]

Your proposed theory is not applicable because creating a new chain from the Genesis block requires the same Proof-of-Work (PoW) hashing power as the original to be accepted by the network. Simply copying data and mimicking the chain doesn't eliminate the need aessuccess login for miners to validate and extend it with a heavier total PoW, which is the network's defense against such a chain split or attack. The network will only follow the chain with the most cumulative PoW, discarding any lighter copy, regardless of how many copies are made.

[FREIVOGEL231]

Your proposed theory is not applicable because creating a new chain from the Genesis block requires the same Proof-of-Work (PoW) hashing power as the original to be accepted by the network. Simply copying data and mimicking the chain doesn't eliminate the need for miners to validate and extend it with a heavier total PoW, which is the network's defense against such a chain split or attack. The network will only follow the chain with the most cumulative PoW, discarding any lighter copy, regardless of how many copies are made.

Why the need for hashing power

When someone mine a block and find answer it takes hash power to do it very hard  as even inputs may vary during mining time
But when you have the final block you can check it in just a second by using same data that where finally included in the block by the time it was mined you have previous block hash you have transactions you have the nounce that solved it you can check ✔️ PoW instant
So no hashing power needed as when it was previously mined

[FREIVOGEL231]

I'm talking about mimicing the whole chain till reach same hight
It's different now
Before you needed the Pow
Now you only checking it

[Pmalek]

You still need the PoW. You need to perform the work if your dishonest chain is to overtake the honest one. And for that you need more computational power, not just historical data. The blocks you produce will be invalid because you didn't do the work that finds a nonce below the target. You can't trick other nodes into believing that the PoW work was done when it wasn't and your chain can't show proof of it. So, they will not validate your blocks. You don't have the ASICs to mine your dishonest chain into existence.

[ABCbits]

Can orphan blocks contain manipulated transactions that alter the hole history of the block chain

If you only replace any data (such as changing included TX) on the block, the block become invalid since it no longer match with the block hash.

[pooya87]

In Proof of Work we all follow the chain with the most work. The theory is that the chain can only grow because the collectively we can perform more work than an attacker can individually. So it is not possible for the attacker that builds from Genesis block to ever reach the rest of the network and provide a chain with more work than the chain that we're currently on.

Since the hole transactions in the looser chain gets back to memepool

That's a bit tricky since your hypothetical scenario is not just a simple 51% attack to replace some block(s) from the tip. You are talking about replacing everything from block #1.

If they mine normally from block #1, every single transaction on bitcoin blockchain becomes invalid and cannot be included in this new chain. The reason is simple, every coin we have today was once mined by a miner (can be traced back to a block reward one way or another). If you replace that block, you are replacing that reward too and the entire "chain" of transactions that led to your coin today becomes invalid.

I suppose the attacker could do some weird thing and use the same coinbase transaction from each block in their own new blocks but then what is the point of this attack?

[FREIVOGEL231]

In Proof of Work we all follow the chain with the most work. The theory is that the chain can only grow because the collectively we can perform more work than an attacker can individually. So it is not possible for the attacker that builds from Genesis block to ever reach the rest of the network and provide a chain with more work than the chain that we're currently on.

Since the hole transactions in the looser chain gets back to memepool

That's a bit tricky since your hypothetical scenario is not just a simple 51% attack to replace some block(s) from the tip. You are talking about replacing everything from block #1.


I suppose the attacker could do some weird thing and use the same coinbase transaction from each block in their own new blocks but then what is the point of this attack?

yes, no point but infinite field points

[BlackHatCoiner]

The only valid copy of the chain is the one that contains the most work. Change the slightest byte from the chain with the most work, and you need to put into the effort to re-do the required work for your copy to become the new valid one.

So no, that theory is not applicable. Someone can't just create a minor fork, provided he does not put in the required effort.

[FREIVOGEL231]

You still need the PoW. You need to perform the work if your dishonest chain is to overtake the honest one. And for that you need more computational power, not just historical data. The blocks you produce will be invalid because you didn't do the work that finds a nonce below the target. You can't trick other nodes into believing that the PoW work was done when it wasn't and your chain can't show proof of it. So, they will not validate your blocks. You don't have the ASICs to mine your dishonest chain into existence.

how says that the blocks in mirror not the real?
yes all the way to top looks like a redo in your prespictive but in the network it just another approve that the miner x did the transaction but in real world he is x`
not all nodes on the same track or at least same page
you can find different confirmations counts everywhere so what prevent the node from proofing the A` BLOCK or TX` INSTEAD of A and TX
no need to proof the whole Chain copy by the same node

[FREIVOGEL231]

The only valid copy of the chain is the one that contains the most work. Change the slightest byte from the chain with the most work, and you need to put into the effort to re-do the required work for your copy to become the new valid one.

So no, that theory is not applicable. Someone can't just create a minor fork, provided he does not put in the required effort.

See it as miner C check the work of miner X mining block A and transmit that as if  X` mined the BLOCK A`  X=X`  and A=A`
NO minor fork its a mirror of the whole thing
to all node that didn't check the mining process yet it`s legit they will not see it as a duplicate they will proof it

[BlackHatCoiner]

See it as miner C check the work of miner X mining block A and transmit that as if  X` mined the BLOCK A`  X=X`  and A=A`

You mean miner C checking the work of miner X and transmitting block A to all network peers as if it was mined by miner C? That's impossible, because if you modify the coinbase transaction so that the block reward goes to miner C's address instead, you change the entire block, and thus, the entire Proof-of-Work is no longer valid. You need to redo the Proof-of-Work under miner C's address.

Unless you meant something entirely different. It's a little difficult to understand your texts.

[FREIVOGEL231]

See it as miner C check the work of miner X mining block A and transmit that as if  X` mined the BLOCK A`  X=X`  and A=A`

You mean miner C checking the work of miner X and transmitting block A to all network peers as if it was mined by miner C? That's impossible, because if you modify the coinbase transaction so that the block reward goes to miner C's address instead, you change the entire block, and thus, the entire Proof-of-Work is no longer valid. You need to redo the Proof-of-Work under miner C's address.

Unless you meant something entirely different. It's a little difficult to understand your texts.

Miner C=X' and doing it for nothing till now I guess
He is not mining the block again he just mimic the same condition
It looks like mining but it's just recheck of the real one so hashing power is almost 0.00..000x of the true needed
So it's instant mining for miner C
To the network it's a proof that X did it
To the mirror network it's
Miner X'
Block A'
Transaction Tx'

Think of It as loopholes a star gates map  within the network forcing nodes to make the mirror approved and legit

[Pmalek]

how says that the blocks in mirror not the real?

The blocks are not real because you didn't put in the work to create them the same way the legitimate blockchain was slowly put together using PoW. Where is your PoW and computational power to build and maintain your fork? Wishful thinking isn't enough. You also can't put up mirrors to mirror your neighbor's house and move your family into the fake one. You didn't do the work, like your neighbor did, to built it. If you think you can create a faked longer chain, please show us in practice and make one.

[Donneski]

You still need the PoW. You need to perform the work if your dishonest chain is to overtake the honest one. And for that you need more computational power, not just historical data. The blocks you produce will be invalid because you didn't do the work that finds a nonce below the target. You can't trick other nodes into believing that the PoW work was done when it wasn't and your chain can't show proof of it. So, they will not validate your blocks. You don't have the ASICs to mine your dishonest chain into existence.

I agree with you mate. No amount of transaction history replaces the raw computational grind. Bitcoin’s consensus doesn’t care about who has the data, it only respects who did the work.

But I still find the mirror idea kinda interesting though, it shows how strong PoW really is. You can copy every byte of Bitcoin’s history but you can not copy the energy that built it. That’s what makes Bitcoin real, effort you can’t fake only prove.

[FREIVOGEL231]

The Topic I started not to defend or attack Bitcoin idea
Even if there might be an attack window it's same on every network not just Bitcoin

Iam asking direct question

Can a  Node be sure that the block is A not A'? No
Can a Node be sure that transactions is Tx not Tx'? No

PoW is awesome the Bitcoin is awesome the whole world is awesome
But this is not the answers to my question

You did the work bravoooo Pow is legit

Can a  Node tell the difference between the Pow made with energy money time
And that in the mirror? No

We don't need to proof anything by just talking awesome

[SilverCryptoBullet]

In Proof of Work we all follow the chain with the most work. The theory is that the chain can only grow because the collectively we can perform more work than an attacker can individually. So it is not possible for the attacker that builds from Genesis block to ever reach the rest of the network and provide a chain with more work than the chain that we're currently on.

The scam chain Bitcoin Cash used to be attractive with miners and there was time it got enough mining hashrates but it did not last for too long and the fact is Bitcoin Cash network hashrate has never been higher than Bitcoin network hashrate. It was just FOMO that Bitcoin Cash will overtake Bitcoin to become a stronger chain in hashrate, that never happened so far.

After failure when the hype on Bitcoin Cash was highest in 2017, now and in the future, it will be impossible for BCH chain to overtake Bitcoin chain.

This site shows how considerable stronger Bitcoin chain compares to Bitcoin Cash chain.
https://howmanyconfs.com/

Bitcoin Cash chain needs 1309 confirmations for having same transaction security of 6 confirmations on Bitcoin chain.

[ABCbits]

Iam asking direct question

Can a  Node be sure that the block is A not A'? No
Can a Node be sure that transactions is Tx not Tx'? No

The actual answer for both of your question are yes. If you make any modification on the block or transaction, it would be invalid since the block hash or TXID is changed. Both of them use cryptography hash where the hash would be different even if you only modify 1 bit. And depending on the modification, it wouldn't pass other checking. Since you're so eager to ask question, how about considering read these pages?
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/cryptography/hash-function/
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/block/hash/
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/transaction/input/txid/

[FREIVOGEL231]

Iam asking direct question

Can a  Node be sure that the block is A not A'? No
Can a Node be sure that transactions is Tx not Tx'? No

The actual answer for both of your question are yes. If you make any modification on the block or transaction, it would be invalid since the block hash or TXID is changed. Both of them use cryptography hash where the hash would be different even if you only modify 1 bit. And depending on the modification, it wouldn't pass other checking. Since you're so eager to ask question, how about considering read these pages?
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/cryptography/hash-function/
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/block/hash/
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/transaction/input/txid/

Thank you for the links, that site is excellent, and I highly recommend it as well.