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Author Topic: Fake L2 scams like Ark, Spark, Citrea, Drivechains, and others are Shitcoins 2.0  (Read 116 times)
AG0RA (OP)
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November 06, 2025, 05:00:59 PM
Last edit: November 06, 2025, 05:15:26 PM by AG0RA
 #1

Broadcasting signal from a post originally shared via Stacker.News.

There's a new wave of Lightning FUD hitting the wires, but that's noise. What no one else is talking about is the signal.

Reality is that Lightning faces a massive incentive problem, one it inherits from Bitcoin itself.

The great wave of shitcoins in the early years highlighted this problem way back then, but it's manifesting itself in a new, potentially even more dangerous way today.

Since Bitcoin, and its only real L2 in Lightning, are emergent, truly decentralized, disintermediated and "just work" as money, the profit motive for companies looking to benefit from a growing industry skews towards "inventing" things beyond them; there must always be something "new" to re-brand non-solutions or introduce middlemen.

Enter the newest attack by fake L2s, or shitcoins 2.0 as they should be more appropriately framed. Shitcoining 1.0 has lost its novelty, as over time people realize there is one true coin. Scammers have thus adapted, and are now affinity scamming as Bitcoin projects.

Ark, Spark, Citrea, Stacks, and countless others now... with their astroturf for Covenants that would lend them some perceived legitimacy... solve nothing.

These are all means not to solve problems or enhance UX, but to smuggle trust and centralization for profit.

Lightning wallets can very easily introduce trust and centralization with the same exact trade-offs; fake L2s are no different than zero-conf channels, but this isn't sexy and won't raise a bunch of money or generate hype. Actually enhancing UX is tedious, hard work, to which I can attest, and inherently requires scarce creativity, otherwise the challenges would be solved already.

This is a perfect storm for the scammer class. Unsophisticated users that lack technical discernment, combined with hipsters always ready to jump on the current thing bandwagon, magnify the scammer astroturf. This reinforces investment theses, then more investment yields more scams, which amp up hipsters and the unsophisticated; it's a downward spiral.

Unlike Shitcoins 1.0, Shitcoins 2.0 presents a Bitcoin contagion.

Never before have so many disparate scams sought to change Bitcoin itself to pervert the incentives further.

Shitcoins 1.0 sold you a new coin... Shitcoins 2.0 want to exploit YOUR coin.

Shitcoins 1.0 sold your friends and family a new investment thesis; Shitcoins 2.0 stand on the back of your hard-fought orange-pilling.

Covenants are the force multiplier of this attack.

These apps are in chorus over how it enhances the security of their centralized apps, and given their affinity scam nature, the security of Bitcoin. In reality, it has no monetary purpose, only to enable delegation to these centralized middlemen.

If you control your Bitcoin today, you control your Bitcoin, period. Covenants offer you nothing.

Covenants scammers want you to believe, however, that you can control your Bitcoin while someone else, via their fake L2 centralized application, controls your Bitcoin.

New OP Codes like CTV, CAT, DRIVECHAIN, and others represent a new era where changes to Bitcoin aren't argued on the merits of Bitcoin as money, but its use as an Ethereum-like stack for centralized applications.

The "Scaling" Smokescreen

You'll hear the emotional blackmail from scammers: "But don't you want to scale self-custody to 8 billion people? Don't you care about anyone else but yourself?"

This is a deliberate misdirection. Reality is that there are two factors in scaling:

  • Transaction Throughput: Lightning already scales transactions infinitely. This is a solved problem.
  • Ownership (Distribution): This is the real bottleneck. There's a minimum amount of Bitcoin needed to not be dust. Even at sub-sat fees today, there is not enough Bitcoin for everyone to trustlessly transact (i.e., have a unilateral exit). We're talking a few hundred million people at most, likely less as institutions continue to accumulate.

Lightning already has batch opens that reduce costs 80%, but no one uses them because cost isn't the bottleneck—ownership is. Fake L2s literally solve nothing. They are scammers trying to sell you a perpetual motion machine.

Ark as a Roach Motel

The scammer FUD continues: "What about receiving while offline? What about low-balance receiving when you don't have a channel?"

Ark solves neither of those things. Trust and centralization do.

Let's compare:
  • Lightning: To receive a low amount with no channel, you must use a trusted service. Someone (an LSP) receives the sats on your behalf, and you have to trust them.
  • Ark: You want to receive a low amount? You haven't received anything. The Ark coordinator (a centralized entity) received it with their liquidity and you must similarly trust that they credit you.

It is the exact same trust model. Ark is just re-branding it.

Does it have a unilateral exit? Only at the same point, and with similar on-chain footprint, as opening a real Lightning channel. The chain costs are the same in the end; Ark just defers the cost. The entire premise of Ark scaling is the insinuation that people will defer these costs forever and do trusted receives forever. The entire premise is that the Ark is a roach motel.

Open Networks vs. Centralized Applications

Much of Bitcoin's value, and all of Lightning's value, is in it being an open network with no central point of failure or trust needed to enter.

Ark is a closed network. Ark users in the same silo can have similar trust assumptions, but an Ark user cannot pay another Ark user in a different Ark without using the main chain or Lightning. The costs are then incurred on this exit, with trust added to execute the swap.

This demonstrates further that they are just centralized applications, which is why they're now pivoting to "DeFi" nonsense as their latest narrative. DeFi is a scam word unto itself because there's no actual decentralization. Entry into their closed network is inherently gated by a trusted swap, so the use-case here is user-to-user payments on something like a shitcoin exchange with its own subnetwork of buyers and sellers.

If you pay the on-chain fee to enter to get Lightning-like trust guarantees, you could have just opened a real Lightning channel for the same cost and be part of the open network where future payments are actually trustless.

What About BitVM?

BitVM is just more of the same: interactive, centralized dog shit. It doesn't enable anything without covenants; it uses "bridges" to emulate them. Scammers are funding the astroturf for covenants for a reason: to give shitcoinery like this perceived legitimacy.

The argument is that you can "challenge" any deviation on-chain. But if you're running a service just to keep the centralized entity honest, you may as well have just run the service yourself. All this crap only serves to delegate control to external parties.

The Lightning use-case for it is horse hockey. As above with Ark, does nothing real Lightning can't. Unilateral exit is supply-bound, not throughput-bound. If you can afford the exit, you can afford a real channel. It's the roach motel assumption all over again.

The Fallacy of Vaults

Quote
But aren't VAULTs a monetary use of covenants?

No. Just as covenants are a push for centralized remote control, vaults are an attempt to CLAW BACK that control. This leaves 2 mutually exclusive scenarios:

  • Bitcoin loses its utility as money, as merchants can no longer simply rely on confirmations to conclude a payment is settled (fearing a clawback).
  • A merchant can ensure funds are not encumbered through certain output types... but if a merchant can, so can an attacker, rendering the vault pointless from the start.

This is the binary outcome. As soon as someone argues against the possibility of it interfering with merchants (scenario 1), they automatically undermine the argument against attacks (scenario 2).

What Do?

Incentives are a bitch; we couldn't stop shitcoins... but we did grind them down over time.

The question is whether we can grind down these fake L2s and covenants scammers; fortunately, Bitcoin being hard to change buys us time.

It's imperative that if you value Bitcoin as hard money and wish to defend it as such, you present the same show of force we showed against shitcoins.

Let every investor and user know, in every comment on every blog or Twitter post, that these applications are not Bitcoin, that Covenants are an attack by the Bithereum Industrial Complex, and that whoever advocates them is either a scammer, a paid shill, or a hipster moron.





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November 06, 2025, 08:54:01 PM
 #2

It's funny that you are criticizing all Layer 2 for bitcoin, and promoting Lightning Network in the same time  Roll Eyes
I am sure crap tokens would be more popular on Lightning Network, but nobody is using LN and there is almost no adoption after so many years.
I remember someone tried using LN payment and he had to pay higher fees than when paying with standard Bitcoin mainnet.
People lost money because of lightning, LN wallets are mostly custodial, larger percentage of LN is on centralized cloud services, etc.




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November 06, 2025, 10:22:18 PM
 #3

Ark: You want to receive a low amount? You haven't received anything. The Ark coordinator (a centralized entity) received it with their liquidity and you must similarly trust that they credit you.
This is incorrect. If you can unilaterally exit with your coins, then that makes it trustless. The only premise is that you're incentivized to keep them offline, which is the entire point of Ark; to compress multiple off-chain payments into a few on-chain. It is only trust-requiring in the sense that you've received a so low amount that you can't even pay the mining fee.

Quote
The entire premise of Ark scaling is the insinuation that people will defer these costs forever and do trusted receives forever. The entire premise is that the Ark is a roach motel.
Not at all. You are encouraged to take your funds out if you prefer better security for an amount that you might consider great. Funds in the Ark wallet are funds sitting in an Internet connected computer, in the end. This reasoning makes as much sense as putting all your bitcoin in lightning channels, because "people would rather earn routing fees than earning nothing."



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Today at 08:21:23 AM
Last edit: Today at 08:43:32 AM by BitGoba
 #4

It's funny that you are criticizing all Layer 2 for bitcoin, and promoting Lightning Network in the same time  Roll Eyes
I am sure crap tokens would be more popular on Lightning Network, but nobody is using LN and there is almost no adoption after so many years.
I remember someone tried using LN payment and he had to pay higher fees than when paying with standard Bitcoin mainnet.
People lost money because of lightning, LN wallets are mostly custodial, larger percentage of LN is on centralized cloud services, etc.



You don’t understand what Lightning is, and it’s obvious that you don’t understand Bitcoin

Lightning isn’t an L2  at least not in the sense shitcoiners use the term. Maybe you should try running a Bitcoin node and opening some Lightning channels. You’ll realize that Lightning isn’t really an L2  it’s part of Bitcoin itself, since the BTC is locked directly on-chain.Running a Bitcoin node will definitely help you better understand the technical side of Bitcoin, as well as why Bitcoin is fundamentally different from shitcoins I also recommend reading books like Bitcoin Standard, Fiat Standard, and Broken Money, so you can better understand Bitcoin


 OP is absolutely right the  “crypto” crowd and the scammer class are once again preying on people’s ignorance of what Bitcoin actually is, selling them worthless tokens under the illusion of innovation and bitcoin L2

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Today at 08:48:35 AM
 #5

You don’t understand what Lightning is, and it’s obvious that you don’t understand Bitcoin
But luckily I understand that you promoted stupid Alby custodial wallet crap that stole coins from their customers  Wink
And you can run almost any coin on lightning network, not just bitcoin.

Lightning isn’t an L2
Andreas Antonopoulos calls Lightning Network a second layer, but I guess you know better than him  Roll Eyes

Lightning isn’t really an L2  it’s part of Bitcoin itself
No it's not, except maybe in your twisted mind.

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Today at 09:00:25 AM
 #6

--snip--
You don’t understand what Lightning is, and it’s obvious that you don’t understand Bitcoin

Lightning isn’t an L2  at least not in the sense shitcoiners use the term. Maybe you should try running a Bitcoin node and opening some Lightning channels. You’ll realize that Lightning isn’t really an L2  it’s part of Bitcoin itself, since the BTC is locked directly on-chain.

And you don't understand Lightning Network well enough.

While most LN development involve Bitcoin, it's not part of Bitcoin protocol. In fact, LN also can be used on some altcoin (such as Litecoin) and you perform atomic swap between 2 coin using LN.

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Today at 11:09:54 AM
 #7

While none of these layers actually solve all of the core problems of Bitcoin, I wouldn't go as far as saying they are scams. That's reserved for projects that rug-pull people.

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Today at 11:13:53 AM
 #8

^ Agreed. If there is real value and usability - no matter how good it does, it's not a rug.

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Today at 12:34:33 PM
 #9

You can fuck off with your lies about Lightning. You are a desperate campaign shitposter.

OP is absolutely right the  “crypto” crowd and the scammer class are once again preying on people’s ignorance of what Bitcoin actually is, selling them worthless tokens under the illusion of innovation and bitcoin L2
Put the user dkbit98 on ignore. He is a malicious troll with an IQ of 70. Don't waste your time writing serious responses to him and focus on the topic.


Quote
But aren't VAULTs a monetary use of covenants?

No. Just as covenants are a push for centralized remote control, vaults are an attempt to CLAW BACK that control. This leaves 2 mutually exclusive scenarios:

  • Bitcoin loses its utility as money, as merchants can no longer simply rely on confirmations to conclude a payment is settled (fearing a clawback).
  • A merchant can ensure funds are not encumbered through certain output types... but if a merchant can, so can an attacker, rendering the vault pointless from the start.

This is the binary outcome. As soon as someone argues against the possibility of it interfering with merchants (scenario 1), they automatically undermine the argument against attacks (scenario 2).
You presented something that is commonly know as false dichotomy. These are not the only possibilities here. Nobody is forced to adopt any particular layer 2 or any layer 2 at all. Everyone gets to choose.

What Do?

Incentives are a bitch; we couldn't stop shitcoins... but we did grind them down over time.

The question is whether we can grind down these fake L2s and covenants scammers; fortunately, Bitcoin being hard to change buys us time.

It's imperative that if you value Bitcoin as hard money and wish to defend it as such, you present the same show of force we showed against shitcoins.

Let every investor and user know, in every comment on every blog or Twitter post, that these applications are not Bitcoin, that Covenants are an attack by the Bithereum Industrial Complex, and that whoever advocates them is either a scammer, a paid shill, or a hipster moron.
Nonsense. This is what is expected to happen as Bitcoin continues to evolve towards an infrastructure. There will be built any number of layers with different purposes which will suit different needs. Do I care if some company wants to create a completely trusted and centralized layer 2? No, why should I? Why should you? As Bitcoin is neutral everyone gets to use it. This includes people that you like and it includes using it in ways that you may not like or find a use for. You don't get to dictate to them that this is not allowed.

https://www.bitcoinlayers.org/site

Here you can find some layers analyzed, there are a few other websites tracking them. Keep in mind that I don't care about any of them or have plans on using them. Lightning works flawlessly for me and I will continue to use that. However, you must understand that the future of Bitcoin will be layered in many ways and the networks will have just about any possible combination of the features that are related to this topic (for example, the 5 trust assumptions criteria from the website).



While none of these layers actually solve all of the core problems of Bitcoin, I wouldn't go as far as saying they are scams. That's reserved for projects that rug-pull people.
Rug pull is a subcategory of scam. There are all sorts of scams. Knowingly building an useless project that shouldn't exist in order to raise money is also a type of scam. It is the most frequent type of scam in the shitcoin world.. That's why they built so many layer1s that mostly do the same as every other layer.

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Today at 01:54:21 PM
 #10

There's a new wave of Lightning FUD hitting the wires, but that's noise. What no one else is talking about is the signal.
It's in 2023.
Developer exposed potential security issue on the Lightning Network.

Andreas Antonopoulos calls Lightning Network a second layer, but I guess you know better than him  Roll Eyes
More about Bitcoin layer 2 and you can call them as sidechains too.
Bitcoin Layer Two Resources.
Sidechain Observer - Bitcoin L2 Projects & current state of development.

Discussion about Bitcoin layer two can be posted in that thread.

Things with Bitcoin Lightning Network is not only about fud but also about its limitations and security holes as written and admitted by Bitcoin Lightning Network developers.

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Today at 02:33:10 PM
 #11

It's in 2023.
Developer exposed potential security issue on the Lightning Network. (https://www.theblock.co/post/258871/developer-exposed-potential-security-issue-on-the-lightning-network)
And yet 2 years since have passed and this was not even exploited once. Don't quote things that you don't understand.

Discussion about Bitcoin layer two can be posted in that thread.

Things with Bitcoin Lightning Network is not only about fud but also about its limitations and security holes as written and admitted by Bitcoin Lightning Network developers.
Everything has limitations. There is no system in the world that does not have limitations. Mentioning this in a generic way is dumb. It is better to not say anything. As for "security holes", I've left you a negative feedback for spreading lies about Lightning.

Lightning works well, any potential attack vectors are high complexity or edge cases and they don't happen in practice. Most users will sooner die than experience one of these sophisticated attacks in their lives, if the user Lightning in a normal way. Your knowledge about Lightning is limited to knowing the English words "limitations" and "security". Roll Eyes

Spammer,  just shut the fuck up and go back to the gambling section which is where you belong.

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