Hardware Wallets vs Air-gapped Old Laptop: Is the supply chain risk real?

[CryptoVoyager24]

I have been reading a lot about cold storage lately. The standard advice everywhere is "just buy a hardware wallet" (Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, etc).
​
However, coming from a background of digital privacy, I have a concern that I can't shake off: Supply Chain Attacks.
​If I order a device, it travels through many hands before it reaches my mailbox. Even if the packaging looks perfect, how can I be 100% sure the firmware or the chip wasn't tampered with?
​Currently, I am using an old laptop with the Wi-Fi card physically removed, booting Tails OS from a USB stick. It feels safer to me because:
​1. I downloaded the OS myself and verified the PGP signature.
​2. The hardware is generic old trash, not a target for crypto-thieves.
​3. It never touches the internet.
​
Am I being too paranoid? Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

[crwth]

No matter what your choice is, do what you think is good for you, and you shouldn't blame anyone else for doing what you did.

I tried both air-gapped and hardware wallets, and it's significantly easier to use a hardware wallet; I haven't had any problems with them since. An airgapped laptop is quite tedious, as you have to connect it to a charger and use a flash drive to sign in, which can be pretty cumbersome. If it's okay for you, then go with it.

[Frankolala]

Personally, I prefer using Electrum cold storage compared to a hardware wallet because you are the one that did the set up yourself but for a pleb or someone who isn't a tech savvy, getting a hardware wallet is good for such people. One advantage of a hardware wallet is that it's portable but I feel safe with a cold storage setup on an old laptop.

[Somegory]

Bro really? The rules of buying a hardware wallet was to never buy from a local store, third party stores can do bad things before the device reached your hand.

Buy directly from the hardware wallet company, it's straight from them to the shipping company hand and to you, don't worry about any tampering if you order from the wallet company.

Also I ordered keystone wallet because it's very sensitive to malicious attempts.

Before you do anything on the wallet you need to verify it with the platform itself, this hardware wallet security level is insane, they will verify for you if that wallet is not already been tempered with, I wish I took the screenshot when I was going through the process.

Anyone else using Keystone on here can verify this too.

I don't know how they do it, but it's like verify if the original firmware is still clean and ready for work, it's like saying, "yes this is one of us".

If you can handle Tails OS and the USB then you are going to be fine too, just do what you think it's best for you, mind you, USB sticks are very good at disappointment when you keep them aside for a very long time, one day they will just stop working.

[Charles-Tim]

However, coming from a background of digital privacy, I have a concern that I can't shake off: Supply Chain Attacks.
If I order a device, it travels through many hands before it reaches my mailbox. Even if the packaging looks perfect, how can I be 100% sure the firmware or the chip wasn't tampered with?

Aside the tempered hardware wallet attack, it also affects privacy. Although, the hardware companies have ways that you can verify that the hardware wallet is truly from their company and not yet tampered with. So if you know what you are doing, such attack should not be the problem. The real problem is less privacy which can be used to compromise your security.

Am I being too paranoid? Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

There is nothing convenient about hardware wallets than airgapped wallets. According to the recent reports, hardware wallet with secure elements maybe more secure, I mean against physical attack, but I still prefer wallets like Electrum on airgapped devices.

[Cookdata]

I have been reading a lot about cold storage lately. The standard advice everywhere is "just buy a hardware wallet" (Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, etc).
​
However, coming from a background of digital privacy, I have a concern that I can't shake off: Supply Chain Attacks.
​If I order a device, it travels through many hands before it reaches my mailbox. Even if the packaging looks perfect, how can I be 100% sure the firmware or the chip wasn't tampered with?

It's safer when you buy hardware wallet directly from the company. The only third party involved when you buy directly from the company are the courier service. There are times some of these companies break package, lost track of package but rarely do I see instances or complaint of wallet been tempered technically.

Hardware wallet do caution wallet users to not use a wallet that has been broken, or seal are broken if eventually the wallet is tempered, you don't have to be paranoid about your wallet if you use a good service courier.

​Currently, I am using an old laptop with the Wi-Fi card physically removed, booting Tails OS from a USB stick. It feels safer to me because:
​1. I downloaded the OS myself and verified the PGP signature.
​2. The hardware is generic old trash, not a target for crypto-thieves.
​3. It never touches the internet.
​
Am I being too paranoid? Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

What about the Bluetooth?
Have you check if the model of your laptop has wifi and Bluetooth together or it's separate. If it's the same place, then that's okay but if it's separated, don't on it or try to make any connection just to be safe.

If you feel like this settings guarantee your success, then it's fine but then again, your laptop will says alot about the  setup. Internet connection is the major red flag here, since you removed the wifi card and completely offline with Tailos, then you have nothing to worry.

[GEMIN_M4]

A hardware is a hardware, been generic old trash like you called it doesn't mean that hackers will let it go, they don't care what hardware you are running your OS or other things on, if it's running perfectly then you can have good information on that thing which is what those hackers and scammers are after.

[ColdLava40]

Am I being too paranoid? Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

I though I was the only one considering these facts about hardware storage. I personally don't like them and would rather get an air gapped device set and running.

With the kind of news I've read on how compromised hardware wallets are sold, i just won't trust any company enough in producing something I would use to store my coins on a long term.

Just get some old crappy or even cheap laptop and do the needfull. It won't cost much to setup nor take much of your time and gives you way more safer cold storage than a hardware wallet..

[AprilioMP]

Purchasing directly from the official website is safer because the official party will pack the goods properly before handing them over to the shipping company.
Hardware wallets or cold storage are good and recommended for use. Follow the correct procedures and be careful with the public. As long as you follow the procedures, the initial stage is complete.
As a reminder, it is better to ask if you don't know than to try to explain as if you have expertise in this field. Being wrong means misleading many people who read it.

[Somegory]

Am I being too paranoid? Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

I though I was the only one considering these facts about hardware storage. I personally don't like them and would rather get an air gapped device set and running.

With the kind of news I've read on how compromised hardware wallets are sold, i just won't trust any company enough in producing something I would use to store my coins on a long term.

Just get some old crappy or even cheap laptop and do the needfull. It won't cost much to setup nor take much of your time and gives you way more safer cold storage than a hardware wallet..

There are few hardware wallets that are airgapped by default, just like Keystone hardware wallet.

Don't even bother trying to talk better about DIY airgapped ideas, they work but a airgapped hardware wallet is still better.

A airgapped hardware wallet that has passed all security tests and have some security feature beats your own airgapped device that you set up yourself, keystone can self destruct ( not explosive like bomb) this is just part of its security feature even after been a airgapped device, your setup airgapped device can't have these features.

[ABCbits]

Am I being too paranoid?

Your question already discussed on Bitcoin Threat Model - State Actors and HW Security - Chip Supply Chain Attacks. The opinion is mixed though.

Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

There's no simple answer. It depends on what hardware wallet you're talking about and convenience also help people make less mistake that could make them lose their coin.

[Lucius]

I have been reading a lot about cold storage lately. The standard advice everywhere is "just buy a hardware wallet" (Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, etc).
~snip~
​

It is not standard advice to buy a hardware wallet that has the option to share your seed with third parties. I wonder if people will ever realize what a risk this is and stop using Ledger HW.
​

Am I being too paranoid? Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

My opinion is that the setup you currently have is more secure than any hardware wallet, because if you've done everything right, an air-gapped wallet on your old computer is the best thing anyone can do for the safety of themselves and their coins. Supply chain risk is not the only thing that can be a problem, but also your shipping details (if you use your name and home address) which can be misused by the company you bought the device from, someone who hacks their data, or anyone in the supply chain who can see your details on the package.

If you make a secure storage yourself, you have avoided all the above-mentioned risks, of course if you keep your mouth shut and don't brag about how you have x coins in an attempt to impress someone

[hd49728]

I have been reading a lot about cold storage lately. The standard advice everywhere is "just buy a hardware wallet" (Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, etc).
​

Avoid Ledger wallet if you have yet bought any Ledger wallet.

It's close source and they launched a Ledger Recover with a lot of critics about it.

There are other open-source hardware wallets to buy and you must buy them rightly too.
[LIST] Open Source Hardware Wallets.
[GUIDE] How to buy a Hardware Wallet the right way.

[Ucy]

Always remember, nothing built centrally by imperfect humans or things, and not able to go through real checks and balances, should be considered safe because it is contrary to multiple principles or safeguards of Bitcoin-like system, put in place to ensure that a system and its participants are completely Open (or open-sourced) for anyone to be part of or with almost zero permission to join, Transparent enough for anyone to review/inspect/monitor, nothing is trusted without review or verification to ensure that almost zero issue exists, tamper proof or immutability to ensure unauthoritized modification is almost impossible, accountable or not closed to public inspection/scrutiny, etc,

As long as this principles do not exist in a system,  you should be very careful trusting things made in it and by their participants

[Kalchef]

I have been reading a lot about cold storage lately. The standard advice everywhere is "just buy a hardware wallet" (Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, etc).
​

Avoid Ledger wallet if you have yet bought any Ledger wallet.

It's close source and they launched a Ledger Recover with a lot of critics about it.

There are other open-source hardware wallets to buy and you must buy them rightly too.
[LIST] Open Source Hardware Wallets.
[GUIDE] How to buy a Hardware Wallet the right way.

If anyone has successfully bought a ledger? What will happen? I don't think they should proceed and start storing funds on the hardware wallet just because they have already bought Ledger, they need to know that closed source hardware wallet are more prone to human errors or even intentionally attacks since their source codes are closed source.

If I already have a closed source wallet I will give it out and create a airgapped wallet using raspberry pi if I want or just buy another open source wallet instead.

[Smartprofit]

I have been reading a lot about cold storage lately. The standard advice everywhere is "just buy a hardware wallet" (Trezor, Ledger, Coldcard, etc).
​
However, coming from a background of digital privacy, I have a concern that I can't shake off: Supply Chain Attacks.
​If I order a device, it travels through many hands before it reaches my mailbox. Even if the packaging looks perfect, how can I be 100% sure the firmware or the chip wasn't tampered with?
​Currently, I am using an old laptop with the Wi-Fi card physically removed, booting Tails OS from a USB stick. It feels safer to me because:
​1. I downloaded the OS myself and verified the PGP signature.
​2. The hardware is generic old trash, not a target for crypto-thieves.
​3. It never touches the internet.
​
Am I being too paranoid? Is a hardware wallet really safer than a properly set up air-gapped machine, or are we just paying for convenience?

In my opinion, hardware wallets have two drawbacks. 💁

The first drawback is what you just mentioned. If you're in one country and the hardware wallet manufacturer is in another, the hardware wallet will be in the hands of others before it reaches you. For example, it might be held for a while by a shipping company. Could some unscrupulous shipping company employee tamper with your hardware wallet? Theoretically, yes! And the delivery chain to you could be even longer.

The second drawback is that the mere presence of a hardware wallet indicates that you own Bitcoin. If an attacker finds your hardware wallet, they'll know for sure that you own Bitcoin. And that's dangerous.

Therefore, for some people, cold storage of Bitcoin (using two devices) is a safer option.

[Hispo]

Ultimately, you are supposed to do what feels better for your personal case, if having an air-gapped old laptop makes you feel save, then it is valid.
You could also try to make your own hardware wallet from ground up, thanks to most hardware wallet makers releasing their code and software as open source on GitHub.

There are already tutorials on YouTube on how to make your own Trezor one or Trezor model T.
That way you would not need to worry about supply chain attacks whatsoever.

[CryptoVoyager24]

Wow, I didn't expect to spark such a big discussion. Thank you all for the insights.
​@Cookdata raised a very valid point about Bluetooth.
You are absolutely right — software disabling is not enough. That is why I physically opened the laptop and removed the WLAN/Bluetooth combo card from the motherboard. Now the machine has zero wireless capabilities on a hardware level.
​@Lucius and @ABCbits, thanks for the validation. I agree that everyone has a different threat model. For me, the "supply chain" is a black box I cannot audit, but I can audit my own old hardware.
​I guess I will stick to my air-gapped setup for now.
​Happy New Year everyone! Stay safe!

[john_egbert]

You do you and you never look back and what you decided making your due analysis for said actions. You adapt to what happens afterward and if you want to be sure that nothing may be done to your future wallet - you do it all yourself no matter how hard or tedious.

[Lucius]

~snip~
The second drawback is that the mere presence of a hardware wallet indicates that you own Bitcoin. If an attacker finds your hardware wallet, they'll know for sure that you own Bitcoin. And that's dangerous.
Therefore, for some people, cold storage of Bitcoin (using two devices) is a safer option.

You're thinking wrong, because why would owning a hardware wallet imply that you own Bitcoin? You can own any other cryptocurrency, or own nothing even if you have such a device. In addition, those smart users know that on one device they can have multiple unique accounts that are protected with passphrases - which means that you have one seed from which you can create hidden wallets with the passphrase.

The only thing that's dangerous is talking around that you have something valuable, because if no one knows you have something like that, then you won't even be a target.