Gap between cypherpunks and today's believers

[Alvin_talk]

These are some conclusions I made from a little research on the subject matter. The gap between cypherpunks and today's bitcoin believers can be seen in their Ideology, motivation and behaviour.

The core ideas and values of cypherpunks was privacy, censorship resistance, and individual sovereignty through cryptography and privacy preserving technologies, in order to promote freedom of individuals from the hands of corrupt government who control our finance and privacy through a centralised system.

This idea came to reality through bitcoin, however, I feel the narrative and ideology is different now, bitcoin is now viewed by most as a digital asset or a hedge against inflation but privacy is now neglected by many or considered as secondary. Don’t get me wrong, I fall into this category as well but most times, I still often wonder whether we would all benefit more if we consciously tried to balance Bitcoin’s modern role as a digital asset with the principles that brought it into existence in the first place.

For cypherpunks privacy was non-negotiable  and they believed surveillance was a threat to their existence but very few believers today pay attention to privacy, KYC is now a norm and I then begin to wonder and ask, if the fundamentals are forgotten and compromised, what then is the aim of bitcoin now? And what difference will it make  from our traditional fiat systems if it becomes adopted globally when the roots and foundations are not preserved by us(privacy, censorship resistance, and individual sovereignty).

Why do I feel the system is now compromised and we are gradually but consistently heading towards a more semi-centralised system due to pressure from government and authorities.

I guess there is a theory that actually describes this, the Mission Drift Theory, this theory lays emphasis on gradual shift in purpose or objectives of an organisation be it non-profit, social enterprise, or purpose-driven corporation.

I know government regulations are becoming more tightened on crypto nowadays but let's not also forget that the cypherpunks also experienced pressure from the government but they fought for all to achieve what we have at hand today but I don't see bitcoiners today replicating the same process.

For example, in the case of Bernstein v. United States(1999), a cypherpunk and a  PHD mathematics student who filed a lawsuit to challenge the crypto export rule, it led to the government recognising software codes as protected speech in the first amendment. As you can see, this changed the law for everyone, so it was not just for few but for everyone, I think such unity and approach is what is lacking among today's bitcoiners.

Coinjoin and mixers are part of the integral privacy tool we have but in recent times, companies which provide mixing services are usually shutdown by the government in the long run e. g Chip Mixer, who knows Coinjoins like Wasabi wallet might be the next target.  Most decentralised exchanges are unreliable AFAIK in the sense that decentralisation is only used for branding and not practiced in reality.

I don't aim on making this writeup too long. The main point is that the ball is still in our court if we make things right by prioritising privacy and growth simultaneously and also by fighting for our financial freedom together rather than prioritising personal interest.

I will also like to hear your honest view on this, happy new year!

[Catenaccio]

These are some conclusions I made from a little research on the subject matter. The gap between cypherpunks and today's bitcoin believers can be seen in their Ideology, motivation and behaviour.

They are different people with very different backgrounds.

The namecalling Cypherpunks tell you that they are people with programming and cryptographic knowledge, and they're developers. Comparing Cypherpunks with people who are simply users, investors or traders in the Bitcoin market recent years and now is wrong, it's very unfair comparison.

Cypherpunks with deep knowledge about programming, cryptography and technology actually have better ability to learn about blockchain, Bitcoin so that with better knowlege, their belief in Bitcoin would be stronger than non technical people.

By the way, take the new year to learn from Satoshi's lesson.

[Luzin]

For cypherpunks privacy was non-negotiable  and they believed surveillance was a threat to their existence but very few believers today pay attention to privacy, KYC is now a norm and I then begin to wonder and ask, if the fundamentals are forgotten and compromised, what then is the aim of bitcoin now? And what difference will it make  from our traditional fiat systems if it becomes adopted globally when the roots and foundations are not preserved by us(privacy, censorship resistance, and individual sovereignty).

The problem is that we live under a government called a state. They regulate every aspect, with the aim of making everything good in all areas. But the problem is that the existence of Bitcoin has a system that contradicts government. Then, because the state and the world cannot regulate it from within the Bitcoin system, they make rules from the outside, which is why KYC exists.

I have thoughts when I imagine what would happen if there were no government. Could we live in an orderly, safe, and comfortable way? Just imagine! The potential for crime and harm will always exist, which is why currently Bitcoin has indeed started to fade from its original purpose. This is because the industry has developed with government regulation. So there is control that might make freedom advocates feel it is unfair. But I hope Bitcoin is not killed and can coexist with the government. IMO CMIIW

[Zlantann]

This idea came to reality through bitcoin, however, I feel the narrative and ideology is different now, bitcoin is now viewed by most as a digital asset or a hedge against inflation but privacy is now neglected by many or considered as secondary. Don’t get me wrong, I fall into this category as well but most times, I still often wonder whether we would all benefit more if we consciously tried to balance Bitcoin’s modern role as a digital asset with the principles that brought it into existence in the first place.

The population of Bitcoin users has increased greatly. This has made people with different goals part of the system. At the early stage, Bitcoin users were just a few people who had one goal, which was privacy. Now we have a mixed multitude of users who are seeking privacy, attention, profit, and so on.

For example, in the case of Bernstein v. United States(1999), a cypherpunk and a  PHD mathematics student who filed a lawsuit to challenge the crypto export rule, it led to the government recognising software codes as protected speech in the first amendment. As you can see, this changed the law for everyone, so it was not just for few but for everyone, I think such unity and approach is what is lacking among today's bitcoiners.

The fight for privacy is still on. A quick search will unveil several cases against the government because of privacy. Some examples are Crypto in the Courts: Five Cases Reshaping Digital Asset Regulation in 2025 

Coinjoin and mixers are part of the integral privacy tool we have but in recent times, companies which provide mixing services are usually shutdown by the government in the long run e. g Chip Mixer, who knows Coinjoins like Wasabi wallet might be the next target.  Most decentralised exchanges are unreliable AFAIK in the sense that decentralisation is only used for branding and not practiced in reality.

Mixing and conjoining services are not illegal in most countries. Some companies still offer these services, as evidenced by their continued advertising in the other forum. Centralization is becoming popular but there are still avenues to enjoy privacy.

[MarjorieZimmermanGinger]

I don't aim on making this writeup too long. The main point is that the ball is still in our court if we make things right by prioritising privacy and growth simultaneously and also by fighting for our financial freedom together rather than prioritising personal interest.

I will also like to hear your honest view on this, happy new year!

They are people who embrace a system of freedom without government control, and this is what we hope for, especially regarding the financial freedom we can gain from our investments. Cypherpunks are known to have a programming background and lead more private lives, so privacy may be a priority for them. Everyone prioritizes privacy in life, but the level of privacy may vary. I think those of us who aren't as familiar with programming and technology also desire freedom with a higher level of privacy, even if we sometimes lack complete anonymity and ultimately the government will only care if it benefits them and they don't want to lose control over any growth they can't control.

[zasad@]

I think there is a lot of interesting stuff to be found in this thread.
Libertarians -- where are they now?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5433028.0

KYC is complete crap, but without it, access to major exchanges and liquidity is impossible. So it's no surprise that most people choose convenience.

[tbct_mt2]

I think there is a lot of interesting stuff to be found in this thread.
Libertarians -- where are they now?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5433028.0

KYC is complete crap, but without it, access to major exchanges and liquidity is impossible. So it's no surprise that most people choose convenience.

KYC is crap but you can not avoid it if you can find alternatives which are still available but less and less with time. While if people want to access major exchanges, KYC is mandatory because governments will put Tier-1 exchanges into their radars and regulations first.

What governments have tried to do so far and want to tighten more in the future will not change a fact about KYC.
Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless

Meanwhile, there are alternatives for no KYC but our choices become less with time.
Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless

[PrivacyG]

There was always this gap and the only difference is that there are a lot of people who do not care about Privacy but like Bitcoin a lot due to the Money it makes them.  Other Privacy solutions are rarely used unless it benefits them directly.  VPNs for watching pornography with out the spouse knowing, Bitcoin for paying for their favorite pornography subscription or to fuel their Gambling addiction with out it appearing on the bank accounts et cetera.

If you want to use Bitcoin the 'cypherpunk' way then you can do it right now.  Electrum for payments, Airgapped computer for storage, Bisq for exchanging, Coin Joining for breaking links et cetera.  You can move around leaving little to zero traces behind and with out ever having to file any procedure such as Know Your Customer but it takes effort.

[Ucy]

Ofcourse, but what we need is the right ideals promoted in the right ways. There needs to be a balance between allowing ideals like privacy and ensuring it is not used for evil. This is one important aspect that the cyberpunks don't seem to be very much concerned about otherwise we will be hearing more about the development of privacy tech (for example) with that balance.
Fortunately, Bitcoin is a tech with the balance. We should be building things that maintain this rather than trying to circumvent it or tilting towards the extreme — like privacy without accountability when something bad is done through the ideals. A balanced approach in the case of Bitcoin is a combination of Anonymity, Transparency and the potential to blacklist a crime address in trustless manner. This will make it harder for governments to see reason to shutdown such tech unless the people in the governments become lawless, then we may become less balance but not without privately keeping a fraud-proof evidences that show that our secret activities (for example) were never used for evil, else we may become victims of false charges/accusations, and not able to provide solid evidences to contradict them

[Ambatman]

The major issue is the narrative that is been broadcasted
People are influenced by what they hear and see
This is why I considered the government terming Bitcoin as digital Gold smart
It's slow eroding of mindset
That many don't even understand what and why self custody is important
And if you push for privacy you branded a criminal and it's usually generalized that only criminals push for privacy
Saw this when exch was shutdown.


Majority don't know the dangers of their data been shared
So will tag it as ignorance

Most decentralised exchanges are unreliable AFAIK in the sense that decentralisation is only used for branding and not practiced in reality.

You can try Bisq

[catnine1]

These are some conclusions I made from a little research on the subject matter. The gap between cypherpunks and today's bitcoin believers can be seen in their Ideology, motivation and behaviour.

The core ideas and values of cypherpunks was privacy, censorship resistance, and individual sovereignty through cryptography and privacy preserving technologies, in order to promote freedom of individuals from the hands of corrupt government who control our finance and privacy through a centralised system.

This idea came to reality through bitcoin, however, I feel the narrative and ideology is different now, bitcoin is now viewed by most as a digital asset or a hedge against inflation but privacy is now neglected by many or considered as secondary. Don’t get me wrong, I fall into this category as well but most times, I still often wonder whether we would all benefit more if we consciously tried to balance Bitcoin’s modern role as a digital asset with the principles that brought it into existence in the first place.

For cypherpunks privacy was non-negotiable  and they believed surveillance was a threat to their existence but very few believers today pay attention to privacy, KYC is now a norm and I then begin to wonder and ask, if the fundamentals are forgotten and compromised, what then is the aim of bitcoin now? And what difference will it make  from our traditional fiat systems if it becomes adopted globally when the roots and foundations are not preserved by us(privacy, censorship resistance, and individual sovereignty).

Why do I feel the system is now compromised and we are gradually but consistently heading towards a more semi-centralised system due to pressure from government and authorities.

I guess there is a theory that actually describes this, the Mission Drift Theory, this theory lays emphasis on gradual shift in purpose or objectives of an organisation be it non-profit, social enterprise, or purpose-driven corporation.

I know government regulations are becoming more tightened on crypto nowadays but let's not also forget that the cypherpunks also experienced pressure from the government but they fought for all to achieve what we have at hand today but I don't see bitcoiners today replicating the same process.

For example, in the case of Bernstein v. United States(1999), a cypherpunk and a  PHD mathematics student who filed a lawsuit to challenge the crypto export rule, it led to the government recognising software codes as protected speech in the first amendment. As you can see, this changed the law for everyone, so it was not just for few but for everyone, I think such unity and approach is what is lacking among today's bitcoiners.

Coinjoin and mixers are part of the integral privacy tool we have but in recent times, companies which provide mixing services are usually shutdown by the government in the long run e. g Chip Mixer, who knows Coinjoins like Wasabi wallet might be the next target.  Most decentralised exchanges are unreliable AFAIK in the sense that decentralisation is only used for branding and not practiced in reality.

I don't aim on making this writeup too long. The main point is that the ball is still in our court if we make things right by prioritising privacy and growth simultaneously and also by fighting for our financial freedom together rather than prioritising personal interest.

I will also like to hear your honest view on this, happy new year!

100% tru, the vibe has changed. OG cypherpunks were all about beatin the system, privacy was everything. Now its all price talk and KYC is just normal, which they woulda hated.
the tech for private transactions is still there tho, like coinjoin. Its just that most ppl dont bother. Up to the real believers to keep usin those tools and not forget what bitcoin was really made for.

[PrivacyG]

Ofcourse, but what we need is the right ideals promoted in the right ways. There needs to be a balance between allowing ideals like privacy and ensuring it is not used for evil. This is one important aspect that the cyberpunks don't seem to be very much concerned about otherwise we will be hearing more about the development of privacy tech (for example) with that balance.

They are concerned about evil but fighting evil often means limited Freedom.  Know Your Customer does this perfectly well.  It fights evil by limiting your Freedom to have an account compared to years ago when you could do it with only an email Address and a strong password.  They can crack down on 'evil Bitcoin' but this only moves the 'evil Bitcoin' to other platforms while your Freedom ends up more and more restricted.

This is why cypherpunks seem not to care about evil.  Because evil is bad but fighting it only makes it find another route to escape.  The point is not NOT fighting it.  The point is us continuing to have Freedom while trying to fight it.

[Alvin_talk]

But the problem is that the existence of Bitcoin has a system that contradicts government. Then, because the state and the world cannot regulate it from within the Bitcoin system, they make rules from the outside, which is why KYC exists.

They tell us KYC compliance is necessary to maintain security but the truth is KYC has also resulted to other security bridges. Because your information and personal data can easily be stolen by hackers and used for all sort of illegal activities, this can even end an innocent individual behind bars, so what is the security in that?

Mixing and conjoining services are not illegal in most countries. Some companies still offer these services, as evidenced by their continued advertising in the other forum. Centralization is becoming popular but there are still avenues to enjoy privacy.

Yes, these services still exist but I'm sure several mixers has been taken down by governments. I can site Atleast five recent cases
Crypto mixer (2025)
Chip Mixer (2023)
Blender.io (2022)
Sinbad.io (2023)
Tornado Cash (Restricted in the US since 2022)

Majority don't know the dangers of their data been shared
So will tag it as ignorance

That is the simple truth, if only they knew the dangers, they will advocate our right to privacy better.

[catnine1]

These are some conclusions I made from a little research on the subject matter. The gap between cypherpunks and today's bitcoin believers can be seen in their Ideology, motivation and behaviour.

The core ideas and values of cypherpunks was privacy, censorship resistance, and individual sovereignty through cryptography and privacy preserving technologies, in order to promote freedom of individuals from the hands of corrupt government who control our finance and privacy through a centralised system.

This idea came to reality through bitcoin, however, I feel the narrative and ideology is different now, bitcoin is now viewed by most as a digital asset or a hedge against inflation but privacy is now neglected by many or considered as secondary. Don’t get me wrong, I fall into this category as well but most times, I still often wonder whether we would all benefit more if we consciously tried to balance Bitcoin’s modern role as a digital asset with the principles that brought it into existence in the first place.

For cypherpunks privacy was non-negotiable  and they believed surveillance was a threat to their existence but very few believers today pay attention to privacy, KYC is now a norm and I then begin to wonder and ask, if the fundamentals are forgotten and compromised, what then is the aim of bitcoin now? And what difference will it make  from our traditional fiat systems if it becomes adopted globally when the roots and foundations are not preserved by us(privacy, censorship resistance, and individual sovereignty).

Why do I feel the system is now compromised and we are gradually but consistently heading towards a more semi-centralised system due to pressure from government and authorities.

I guess there is a theory that actually describes this, the Mission Drift Theory, this theory lays emphasis on gradual shift in purpose or objectives of an organisation be it non-profit, social enterprise, or purpose-driven corporation.

I know government regulations are becoming more tightened on crypto nowadays but let's not also forget that the cypherpunks also experienced pressure from the government but they fought for all to achieve what we have at hand today but I don't see bitcoiners today replicating the same process.

For example, in the case of Bernstein v. United States(1999), a cypherpunk and a  PHD mathematics student who filed a lawsuit to challenge the crypto export rule, it led to the government recognising software codes as protected speech in the first amendment. As you can see, this changed the law for everyone, so it was not just for few but for everyone, I think such unity and approach is what is lacking among today's bitcoiners.

Coinjoin and mixers are part of the integral privacy tool we have but in recent times, companies which provide mixing services are usually shutdown by the government in the long run e. g Chip Mixer, who knows Coinjoins like Wasabi wallet might be the next target.  Most decentralised exchanges are unreliable AFAIK in the sense that decentralisation is only used for branding and not practiced in reality.

I don't aim on making this writeup too long. The main point is that the ball is still in our court if we make things right by prioritising privacy and growth simultaneously and also by fighting for our financial freedom together rather than prioritising personal interest.

I will also like to hear your honest view on this, happy new year!

u right man feels like we traded the cypherpunk soul for a spot ETF and lambo memes. the real "why" privacy, sovereignty got lost in the price talk.

the tools for private cash (like coinjoin) are still there, but no one wants the hassle. its easier to just KYC and buy. the fight aint about legalizin it anymore, its about keepin it private. thats a harder, quieter battle.

up to us who remember the real vision to use the tools and not let that fire die out.

[SeriouslyGiveaway]

Yes, these services still exist but I'm sure several mixers has been taken down by governments. I can site Atleast five recent cases
Crypto mixer (2025)
Chip Mixer (2023)
Blender.io (2022)
Sinbad.io (2023)
Tornado Cash (Restricted in the US since 2022)

There are more mixer services closed by themselves or seized by governments.

Scams Bitcoin Mixers List and Services closed.
Bitcloack.ru
BitMaximum.io
BitMix.Biz
Bitmixer.io
Bitwhisk
Foxmixer.com
BitBlender
...

Mixer founders can proactively close their services with their own reasons.
Popular Bitcoin Mixing Service Bitmixer.io Shuts Down Immediately
Bitmixer.io's announcement.

There's a big change that needs to happen, sometimes it's better to disappear for everyone's good. 🙂

[crwth]

If it's all about privacy, there are a lot of solutions offered by different projects like

• Monero
• Zcash

They are trying to build privacy solutions beyond the CoinJoin technicalities. I believe privacy coins are an easy solution for this. This could serve education as well to those who are quite new to the crypto space.