After I stopped getting paid, here is some food for thought...

[joker_josue]

I wonder if a physical Bitcoins could be considered "art". You don't pay tax on unrealized gains on art, as long as you have it because you like the art (and not for the investment). If that works on a €100M painting, shouldn't it work on a physical Bitcoin?

If it's sealed and you don't know its private key, you only have a physical asset that gives you access to a digital asset, but you don't yet possess the digital asset itself.

If you have a winning scratch-off ticket but never scratch it, you never receive the prize even though technically it's yours. 

[LoyceV]

Kudos to you for trying to be lawful, but it's something that's personally not in my priorities to declare any earnings from signature campaigns. Right now, it seems too much of a hassle to declare it as income for something that's firstly, not permanent (what is honestly though?) and secondly, not a "solid" job, it's a hobby, a part-time hassle that also gets you paid. Some treat is as a job, but that's a different story. Perhaps (and very likely) I'll have to go through it some time in the future, where I'll have to convert to fiat and withdraw, but till then, I prefer to keep a low profile.

You've been her longer than me. How are you going to answer the questions your bank will ask when you receive a large sum of money after selling your signature earnings from years ago? That's why I'm being lawful, it's basically a get out of jail free card for later.

If you have a winning scratch-off ticket but never scratch it, you never receive the prize even though technically it's yours. 

That's not going to work, there have been lawsuits about this, taxes won. Someone won 20 million on December 31, and received the money on January 4. He had to pay savings tax on money he didn't own yet.

[CryptoHeadlineNews]

I wonder if a physical Bitcoins could be considered "art". You don't pay tax on unrealized gains on art, as long as you have it because you like the art (and not for the investment). If that works on a €100M painting, shouldn't it work on a physical Bitcoin?

It depends on what shape Bitcoin will be trying to imitate physically, because if it is trying to imitate the form of a drawing, painting or craft, then it's qualified to be regarded as an art. But in a nutshell, if it tries to imitate the shape and form of a random object like book, pen or possibly hard drive, then such can't be regarded as an art. Because the truth of the fact is that what makes a piece of art more valuable is simply because of the environment the art finds itself, and what the people thinks the art represents. Because an art that worth €100M in Europe Auction sales might get to Africa, and people who doesn't know what it stands for or represent might price it at less than $1000, simply because they don't know it's original worth. And when it comes to the case of Bitcoin, it's worth it different, simply because it's current price value is tagged to it, and no matter where you go in the entire world, it can still be sold at it's exact price value. Hence, if I'm to choose between an artwork worth €100M and Bitcoin worth €1M, I will definitely go for the €1M in Bitcoin, reason been that it can easily be traded anywhere around the world at the same value. Unlike the €100M art that it will be very hard to see someone willing to buy it at it's exact same value anywhere around the world.

[Ultegra134]

You've been her longer than me. How are you going to answer the questions your bank will ask when you receive a large sum of money after selling your signature earnings from years ago? That's why I'm being lawful, it's basically a get out of jail free card for later.

I don't know where you're from, but if it wasn't a pain in the ass here and such a lengthy process, perhaps I would consider declaring them as well. The current legislation makes it unprofitable to earn an X sum of money through campaigns, just to spend a Y fixed amount on taxes every month. I haven't considered how I'm going to move my funds when the time comes, but I remember I had asked for suggestions a while ago in the forum and maybe I'll be able to pull it off with P2P transactions in person perhaps.

[Pmalek]

As if the 2% over total investments per year we pay already isn't enough! Government wants more and more money.
"The poor" get money from government, "the rich" don't have taxable income nor taxable wealth, and this will make sure middle class will not own anything in the long run.
Imagine Bitcoin going up 400% in a year. That means paying 36% tax on 80% of your Bitcoin, basically forcing you to sell 28.8% just to pay your tax for just that year.

Are boating accidents with bitcoin a common thing in the Netherlands? If they aren't, they should be. I hope more and more Dutch bitcoin holders will have boating accidents. The government deserves it. After all, why don't they use the taxpayer money to better protect their coastline on the North Sea against such accidents? it's dangerous to take your crypto out on the boat.

[LoyceV]

Are boating accidents with bitcoin a common thing in the Netherlands? If they aren't, they should be. I hope more and more Dutch bitcoin holders will have boating accidents. The government deserves it.

I didn't pay taxes for all those years just so I can't use my money when I want to

After all, why don't they use the taxpayer money to better protect their coastline on the North Sea against such accidents?

I'd like to give a serious answer to this rhetorical question: that's because the KNRM relies on donations and volunteers to rescue thousands of people per year. Unfortunately they don't accept Bitcoin donations.

[KingsDen]

...but I remember I had asked for suggestions a while ago in the forum and maybe I'll be able to pull it off with P2P transactions in person perhaps.

If there's a way to go about it with offline P2P or whatever, why not use the address of a trusted person outside of your country to enroll in signature campaign. When it's time to sell off, you do it with the said P2P. I don't know if it's making sense. But it will be wise to have someone from another country receiving and keeping your campaign pays while you await the tax rule changes or find an alternative.

[joker_josue]

If you have a winning scratch-off ticket but never scratch it, you never receive the prize even though technically it's yours.  

That's not going to work, there have been lawsuits about this, taxes won. Someone won 20 million on December 31, and received the money on January 4. He had to pay savings tax on money he didn't own yet.

But this case is correct. The player received the money.
If he never reports the ticket, even though he won, he will never receive the money.

Either way, I think you understood the idea I wanted to convey.  

[LoyceV]

But this case is correct. The player received the money.
If he never reports the ticket, even though he won, he will never receive the money.

It's more fun than that: if you own a winning lottery ticket on December 31st, and your house including the ticket burns down from fireworks right after midnight, you still owe taxes. So you'd better plan your boating accident carefully

[macson]

1. If you stopped getting paid today, for any reason, would you post with the same zeal that you post today? And more importantly, if you weren't getting paid, would you really need to say all the things that you say when you get paid?

Not to be a hypocrite, but I did earn some money when I joined the signature campaign, and that's what motivated me to continue participating, though it's not the only reason. But if I stopped getting paid one day, I'd still be here, but my activity might be less than before, as I have a personal life and priorities outside of the forum. But I won't leave this forum, as it has taught me so many valuable lessons.

2. Would you support the forum to the outsiders, who would rationally wonder: "what on earth do all these people do there everyday?".

I did. But as you know, not many people like forums. Most of the people I invited to open an account just laughed, and some may have signed up but left after losing their money on shitcoin, but that's their business. At least if I get the chance, I'll support this forum and say that this is the best place for them if they are so interested in bitcoin and cryptocurrency.

3. Would you be actually interested in this forum's longevity and would you try to stop the scammers if you weren't getting paid?

Of course. If I have the chance, I'll do my best to fight these scammers. I've been scammed before, so I understand how it feels. So if I come across any scam schemes, I won't hesitate to report them to the moderators.

4. Do you actually know (or use) the website or service that you promote? It's not a trap question, I just want you to think if you'd jump from campaing to campaign simply because of the money, or if there's also a tie with the service that you promote.

I try my best to use the platforms I promote. Even if it's not often, I've at least tried them firsthand, so I know exactly what I'm promoting and what the experience is like playing on them. It's ridiculous to me when someone wears a signature but never plays or even understands what they're promoting.

[LTU_btc]

Saw this topic few days ago, but found time to answer only now. I will try to be honest as much as I can.
1. Believe me or no, but my answer is yes. There was some periods when I wasn't in campaign, but it didn't affected my posting habbits. You know, when you spend here more than 10 years, posting on Bitcointalk already turned into habbit like cup of coffee early in the morning. Usually I don't even check signature campaign spreadsheet whether I reached quotta or no because I know that I reach it easily while posting things that I want to say and without pushing myself. After all, I already earned significant amount of BTC and loosing such source of income wouldn't hit me hard, not like these who are trying to earn for a living here.
2. No, I'm not doing it. Simply I don't know any people around me who may be interested in such things.
3. Unofrtunately i don't have enough time and skills for these things. I'm not AI like some forum members and I'm not able to bust scams and spam in the way like they do.
4. Yes, I wouldn't promote services that I don't use or don't trust. Personally, for me it's strange when people are ready to advertise anything on their signature, often they have no idea about that service, it's most important that they'rey getting paid.

About tax question I can relate. It's complicated thing. If you're cashing out small amount, it's not an issue, but if you will want to cash out bigger money or buy something signifcant like car or real estate legally, it's really difficult. I failed to figure out myself without help from people who are working with these things.

[joker_josue]

But this case is correct. The player received the money.
If he never reports the ticket, even though he won, he will never receive the money.

It's more fun than that: if you own a winning lottery ticket on December 31st, and your house including the ticket burns down from fireworks right after midnight, you still owe taxes. So you'd better plan your boating accident carefully

Now I don't understand. If you never claim the prize, nobody knows who won. Buying a lottery ticket remains anonymous (or am I mistaken? I don't play, so I don't know). If you never claim the prize, you'll never pay anything, because in the end nobody knows who won.

Generally speaking, I understand that things are already complicated with Bitcoin in some countries.

Fortunately, in Portugal – yet – it's not complicated; you just need to know how to manage it well. But you never know what the authorities will come up with tomorrow.

[alani123]

fwiw OP the taxes part can't make sense if you reside in Greece. Maybe you don't but we've spoken greek a few times.
Greek burreocracy on crypto taxation used to be so unclear that even tax authorities wouldn't bother.
Now there's a clear law that there's a flat rate on profits and it doesntl affect tax brackets from income otherwise.

But for the longest time I've known people transacting thousands with crypto eccnshges and facing no issues. Greece is kinda of a safe heaven for that, many people from all over the world come here to launder money through our banks. The money from a signature campaign would be a drop in the ocean.

[LoyceV]

Now I don't understand. If you never claim the prize, nobody knows who won.

That's why you have to report it yourself.

If you never claim the prize, you'll never pay anything, because in the end nobody knows who won.

Even in this example, you'd have to report owning the winning ticket to taxes. Not claiming the prize doesn't mean you don't have to pay taxes.

But for the longest time I've known people transacting thousands with crypto eccnshges and facing no issues. Greece is kinda of a safe heaven for that, many people from all over the world come here to launder money through our banks. The money from a signature campaign would be a drop in the ocean.

Being able to get away with it now, doesn't guarantee they won't come after you later. I get that OP doesn't want to risk that.

[alani123]

For the longest time Greece had no crypto tax. It's only for 2025 tax returns that you can even ask to be taxed on your crypto in Greece.
In theory there's still some talk if it should count for 2025 returns because the legislation was passed in the middle of the year.
I mean yeah on theory the authorities can target you for whatever they fuck they want. But until very recently there was no legal framework to charge someone with tax evasion over just getting money for crypto. It was legal to sell and use cash for your everyday needs. But yeah after a certain level there are issues otherwise. For instance EU forbids cash transactions over 500€ EUR.

[LoyceV]

For instance EU forbids cash transactions over 500€ EUR.

That's incorrect. Greece created this limitation by themselves.

[alani123]

Oops yeah you're right our government is a pioneer in implementing stupid EU guidelines though. Limit on cash transactions will soon be implemented EU wide.

[apogio]

The money from a signature campaign would be a drop in the ocean.

A drop in the ocean, that I wouldn't like to spill myself.

I get that OP doesn't want to risk that.

Exactly! Everyone's lives are different, so in my case, it isn't worth the risk. Life's brought things that way that I have to account for multiple lives now, not only mine, so I'm de-risking every possible issue.

I mean yeah on theory the authorities can target you for whatever they fuck they want. But until very recently there was no legal framework to charge someone with tax evasion over just getting money for crypto. It was legal to sell and use cash for your everyday needs. But yeah after a certain level there are issues otherwise. For instance EU forbids cash transactions over 500€ EUR.

Honestly, the only thing I want in my life is simplicity. I want to have the minimum amount of interaction with the State that's possible.


Food for thought again, with a hypothetical scenario (or not so hypothetical).

1. The forum is monitored by the authorities.
2. A company has scammed people, or wants to launder money and they launch a signature campaign in the forum.
3. The authorities know about the existence of this company and they monitor the transactions (users, amounts, blockchain data etc).
4. The authotities search for a specific user and find their real-life data (not very difficult to do - trust me).
5. Now, they simply keep track of the user's actions.

Would this user prefer to have declared all of their income, showing that they got it simply for advertising reasons or would he prefer to keep everything in the shadows?
Would this user be able to spend easily (or cash out) his stash after 10 years of being paid? Would he be bothered by the authorities if he tried to cash out a significant amount of money? Or buy a car for example.

[alani123]

Well as far as I know your hypothetical scenario has already been very very close to reality or maybe had already taken place.

I remember shortly before mixers were banned here some signature campaign participants were complaining big exchanges were rejecting their funds.

So of course transactions are monitored. By new EU regulation exchanges are even forced to report on every transactions probably though they were already doing this just in this time it's become official for every instance.