Dutch government went insane. 36% on UNREALISED capital gains (crypto included)

[Free Market Capitalist]

The trend looks bad imho for both Europe and America(s). China, India are growing, but yeah, China and capitalism sounds like two characters from a joke

Well, I don't see the joke anywhere. China is quite capitalist in its economy. What happens is that political power still retains the typical communist authoritarianism, but in general there is a lot of freedom to do business and get rich.

The first person to open up China's economy after Mao was Deng Xiaoping, and a long time has passed since that first opening, which has been getting bigger and bigger.

By the way, I just saw something about the aforementioned 12-hour shift reform in Argentina, and I think it's much more sensible than the mainstream media and the protesting Peronists are making it out to be.

I am quoting from ChatGPT:

The reform allows employers and employees to agree to workdays of up to 12 hours, replacing the traditional rule of 8 hours per day.

Instead of paying traditional overtime, extra hours can be put into a “banco de horas” (hours bank) and compensated with time off later, as long as weekly and rest limits are respected (e.g., 12 hours of rest between shifts).

I don't see what's wrong with that. I've worked more than 8 hours on occasion and been compensated for it. It's also common among people who work in healthcare.

In short

It doesn’t automatically force all workers to do 12-hour days, but it enables much longer daily shifts under new flexible systems.

Traditional overtime pay systems would be replaced by compensatory rest under the hours bank mechanism.

The reform is part of a broader effort by the Milei government to “modernize” the labor market but is deeply controversial and socially divisive

So basically, the guy is implementing reforms to make the economy more flexible, and the mainstream media is portraying it as if he were allowing business owners to chain workers up and whip them. And then you have all the Peronist lackeys causing a ruckus in the streets, but they were keeping quiet while the country sank deeper into misery every year under Peronism, which is basically a variant of communism.

[zasad@]

If I were Dutch, I'd buy assets every year and then sell them at a loss at the end of the year. The fact that these would be my tokens is a separate issue. But I'd always be a losing trader. Either you break the law or you don't invest in crypto.

Is there a difference in the steps or amount of tax paid if the gain is left to float or realized before the end of the year? I don't think there's a difference, considering the 36% rate applies to both types of gains. Anyway, if the Dutch believe realized gains are better taxed, we'll see selling pressure at the end of each year.

If only realized profits are taxed, fewer actions are required from citizens. But ultimately, the mechanism for reducing taxes is the same. Holders will be at ease.
I believe a reasonable tax system should have diversified tax rates: the more you own, the lower the tax.

[NeuroticFish]

Well, I don't see the joke anywhere. China is quite capitalist in its economy. What happens is that political power still retains the typical communist authoritarianism, but in general there is a lot of freedom to do business and get rich.

The first person to open up China's economy after Mao was Deng Xiaoping, and a long time has passed since that first opening, which has been getting bigger and bigger.

For many years (may no longer be actual though) if a western company wanted to enter China, they could do that only as a joint venture / partnership with Chinese company.
Even now, the owners of the big companies have to be "approved" by the party and if they say something wrong they can too easily disappear.
China looks better than in the past, I do agree with that, but let's not consider as full story only the part China allows to be shown/said publicly.

By the way, I just saw something about the aforementioned 12-hour shift reform in Argentina, and I think it's much more sensible than the mainstream media and the protesting Peronists are making it out to be.

It doesn’t automatically force all workers to do 12-hour days, but it enables much longer daily shifts under new flexible systems.

I didn't know this for sure, but it's not unexpected it has this form. Imho it's still bad, because of poverty and the herd mentality.
Imho even the "western way" to just allow multiple jobs is already bad (the pay should be better, and no money support for various cases, since we know that such scheme is instantly abused).
The 12h is now "a flexible system", but when most of your co-workers agree to work 12h, you will either do the same or get sacked, because the company will want to optimize their flow too.
So no, this 12h thing is imho a trap unfolding. And if we compare this to the trend in the Netherlands I've read about some (well, not few) years ago = people starting to switch to 4-6h working days or 4-days working week to have more time for themselves... the difference is staggering.

[Free Market Capitalist]

So no, this 12h thing is imho a trap unfolding. And if we compare this to the trend in the Netherlands I've read about some (well, not few) years ago = people starting to switch to 4-6h working days or 4-days working week to have more time for themselves... the difference is staggering.

Now compare the difference in productivity and you will see the same staggering difference.

If you're a country that's in deep shit, what you have to do is start producing like crazy, whereas if you're a rich country, you can afford to be comfortable.

[NeuroticFish]

Now compare the difference in productivity and you will see the same staggering difference.
If you're a country that's in deep shit, what you have to do is start producing like crazy, whereas if you're a rich country, you can afford to be comfortable.

Actually it was figured out lately that this is a false narrative. It looks like if you're a country that's in deep shit, what you actually have to do is to:
* make the state leaner and smarter
* reduce corruption / stealing / waste
* improve infrastructure (especially for transportation)
* make the tax structure smart and with rather small and clear taxes
* for long term improve everything that's related to the schools / education

For businesses it doesn't matter that much they can earn a lot from the low wages if they have to pay a lot extra to "find your way" in relation with the state / authorities. Of course, some businesses are attracted by such countries too, but it's not where the wealth comes from.
For businesses it doesn't matter that much they can produce cheap if it's a pain in the ass to get the products out of the country.

Also productivity growth comes from certain types of businesses, e.g. automatization, not from working more, especially if it's "dumb labor". And then we get to the topic of education.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Actually it was figured out lately that this is a false narrative.

Who figured out that?

It looks like if you're a country that's in deep shit, what you actually have to do is to:
* make the state leaner and smarter
* reduce corruption / stealing / waste
* improve infrastructure (especially for transportation)
* make the tax structure smart and with rather small and clear taxes
* for long term improve everything that's related to the schools / education

Those are good measures in general which lead to an increase in productivity, so I don't see how they can prove the false narrative. Quite the contrary.

Reduced state, reduce corruption better infraestructure, lower taxes and better education are means to produce like crazy, not the contrary.

[NeuroticFish]

Reduced state, reduce corruption better infraestructure, lower taxes and better education are means to produce like crazy, not the contrary.

I've heard a lot of times in the past the assumption poor country <=> lazy people. And that's what I was saying it's a false narrative.
I guess that it was a misunderstanding from my side. I thought that by "producing like crazy", given the context (the 12h working day), you only meant "work more".

[Free Market Capitalist]

I've heard a lot of times in the past the assumption poor country <=> lazy people. And that's what I was saying it's a false narrative.
I guess that it was a misunderstanding from my side. I thought that by "producing like crazy", given the context (the 12h working day), you only meant "work more".

That was obviously not what I was trying to say. But I think it's time we ended this conversation, which seems more like a private chat between you and me than a forum discussion.

I believe that this measure, and I am referring to the central topic of the thread, the unrealized capital gains tax, will have have to be withdrawn after a couple of year at most if it finally comes into effect.

The only thing it will do is cause those who can to leave the country, and those who can't will in many cases have to sell their property to pay the tax. If we were talking about 3%, I would still be against it, but I wouldn't think it would be so disastrous.

Besides, I am against the measure on principle, almost moral grounds, I might say. How can anyone possibly tax something that has not yet been done? They are trying to raise liquidity where there is none.

What worries me most is that it introduces an element of arbitrariness into tax collection because when you tax something that has not yet been realized, it is entirely possible that when it comes time to pay the tax, the asset will be at a loss.

But I think it will be like the wealth taxes that some European countries introduced and ultimately had to remove, with only a few remaining and not charging outrageous rates like 36%.

[Lucius]

As I suspected, the proposal was rejected and everyone in the Netherlands can breathe a sigh of relief for now. This is just another example that shows that those who make/propose laws are not very intelligent.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg66446247#msg66446247

[SquirrelJulietGarden]

As I suspected, the proposal was rejected and everyone in the Netherlands can breathe a sigh of relief for now. This is just another example that shows that those who make/propose laws are not very intelligent.

It's sort of relief for people in Netherlands but government there and in other nations will try to exploit money in their citizens as most as possible. They failed this time in Netherlands but will try to return in the future with other proposals and perhaps with different political situations in the future, there will be proposals to be passed. The fight between governments and citizens never stop and it's true not only in Netherlands.

36% unrealized capital gains proposals is a very crazy proposal and it's good to see it failed to be passed as a new law and regulation in cryptocurrency industry there.

Which countries tax unrealized capital gains?
There are Denmark and Norway with tax on unrealized capital gain.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Which countries tax unrealized capital gains?
There are Denmark and Norway with tax on unrealized capital gain.

Not exactly. What the text of the article you cite says is as follows:

Which countries tax unrealized capital gains?

Denmark and Norway are two examples of countries that tax unrealized gains in the form of an exit tax. In Norway, unrealized gains on shares and ownership interests in Norwegian companies are taxed when you move to another country. The unrealized gains tax rate is 37.84%, though there are some exceptions to the rule.

It is completely different to be taxed on unrealized capital gains if and only if you move your tax residence to another country than an annual unrealized capital gains tax rate of 36%. The people who propose and approve this are not just not very intelligent, as Lucius says, but are downright imbeciles.