[NEWS]NewYork Suing Valve for for promoting "illegal gambling" Inside their game

[acroman08]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

For those who don't know, there have been debates for years about lootboxes or Gacha being a form of gambling, there were even petitions years ago demanding that lootboxes and gacha be removed from inside the games, as kids are being exposed and getting addicted to it.

Link to the article: https://www.xda-developers.com/new-york-is-suing-valve-calling-its-lootbox-systems-quintessential-gambling/

[Beparanf]

I don’t consider it as gambling since the rewards is an in-game item which just happened to have a value set by the players who is willing to pay for that item due to its rarity.

This is same when buying pokemon cards booster park which collectors doesn’t know what inside and can sell rare cards in the open market.

If lootboxes categorize already as gambling then all gatcha type game that has real fiat value will fall to that same category.

[Findingnemo]

Then almost every in app purchase that is not guaranteed to give out the rewards such as skins or avatars will fall under the gambling too? I don't think this lawsuit will withdtand and they are taking this to extreme level while the actual level gambling is happening on very social level.

[TopTort777]

I don’t consider it as gambling since the rewards is an in-game item which just happened to have a value set by the players who is willing to pay for that item due to its rarity.

This is same when buying pokemon cards booster park which collectors doesn’t know what inside and can sell rare cards in the open market.

If lootboxes categorize already as gambling then all gatcha type game that has real fiat value will fall to that same category.

How familiar are you with cs2 lootboxes? Do you know that these in-game weapon skins can be traded for real money directly on steam platform. Then you can use those money to buy other games serial key as a gift, and trade it outside steam platform. I have seen sites where you can bet your skins on wheel against other user skins. The mechanics that you first need to buy cs2 weapon case, then a key to it, then run wheel to get random skin - isnt that gambling? Money = check, fact of random prize = check, spinning wheel = check.

[nimogsm]

There's no doubt that loot boxes, skins, and other gaming paraphernalia influence children. But the buyers are essentially their parents, not the children themselves, so it's highly questionable whether they can ban the purchases.I don't think it will be possible to ban this or begin to regulate it further. Debates about this have been going on for years, and who will continue to push this case to gain all the public's dislike.

[Sandra_hakeem]

Imho, as long as it doesn't derail away from the services that are being offered within the gaming platform (maybe to something different like a roulette-like wheel, or deck of cards to make some selections, to win extra prices which may include whatever weapon/ device, plus some tokens that can be fungible IRL) I don't think it's causing any kind of harm, but we're all entitled to our opinion.

The regulatory bodies have been really dramatic as of late - they always find one thing to complain and sue a gaming platform/ a prediction site for doing too much. In that case, I think they should respect their boundaries especially since they've been several petitions already.

[danherbias07]

Why does it feel like they are attacking the "in game puchases"? We all know there's real gambling that is not even hiding in the shadows. It's in plain sight, and yet they decided to turn their eyes into online games with gachas or premium items (loot boxes).
This kind of thing had been going around since games became free to play. MMORPG mostly. They are trying to keep the game going by making profits through gacha items, while gamers will enjoy the games more through donations or buying the premiums.

It's not really a gamble. It's a gamer who is trying to get stronger in-game, trying to be one of the top players, or just wants a cooler avatar. I played many MMORPGs, and I can say it's not really a gamble. It's more like making the game more fun.

[Beparanf]

I don’t consider it as gambling since the rewards is an in-game item which just happened to have a value set by the players who is willing to pay for that item due to its rarity.

This is same when buying pokemon cards booster park which collectors doesn’t know what inside and can sell rare cards in the open market.

If lootboxes categorize already as gambling then all gatcha type game that has real fiat value will fall to that same category.

How familiar are you with cs2 lootboxes? Do you know that these in-game weapon skins can be traded for real money directly on steam platform. Then you can use those money to buy other games serial key as a gift, and trade it outside steam platform. I have seen sites where you can bet your skins on wheel against other user skins. The mechanics that you first need to buy cs2 weapon case, then a key to it, then run wheel to get random skin - isnt that gambling? Money = check, fact of random prize = check, spinning wheel = check.

I’m a CS:GO & CS2 player but not a professional player so I know exactly how lootboxes and I clearly mentioned that it has real value.

My point is it’s not a direct money bet rather user is purchasing lootboxes that contains item that has fiat value on it if they sell.

There’s lootboxes type of gambling game now that directly reward the fiat equivalent rather the item and that’s the type of lootboxes I consider gambling since the intent is to just win money.

Anyway, we will different interpretations here whether it’s gambling or not depending on our perspective about gambling. For me it’s just a game like Pay2Earn.

[noorman0]

In my opinion, it's behaviorally identical to gambling. If someone opens a case hoping to obtain a rare item to sell for a higher price on the secondary market, it's already crossed a gray area and is very close to a digital casino. However, jurisdictional definitions may vary and may not lead to classification beyond general gaming because the market for such rare items isn't internally facilitated. In fact, there are many smaller things around with similar patterns that aren't considered gambling because the primary target market is children.

[Churchillvv]

Sometimes I look at the term “Illegal” as the problem not because kids are getting addicted but the mere fact that it dies not follow their taxing law or the gambling laws as it’s covered by the gaming free law and that is the problem and not that kids are exposed to gambling, one way or the other kids are exposed to gambling legally yet they are not question especially when it’s advertised in sports kids watch like NBA, etc but that is not a problem because it’s taxed and now Valve is doing it illegally because they do not comply to anyone’s regulations.

[suzanne5223]

[snip]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

I don't see lootboxes inside a game as a form of gambling, but everything also depends on how the lootboxes are promoted, and one thing i am certain about is that the US rules, and you will be surprised by the reasons why some game/platform users from the US sue the brand they are using.
Which is one of the reasons why some platforms don't want to provide service for the US, and if we have the chance to see how the lootboxes was oprated in the game, we would have known if it was worth being sued for illegal gambling.

[Davidvictorson]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

For those who don't know, there have been debates for years about lootboxes or Gacha being a form of gambling, there were even petitions years ago demanding that lootboxes and gacha be removed from inside the games, as kids are being exposed and getting addicted to it.

Link to the article: https://www.xda-developers.com/new-york-is-suing-valve-calling-its-lootbox-systems-quintessential-gambling/

New York is doing what they think is right. We will now let the court decide.
It is not in my place to say if the lootboxes promote illegal gambling or not but from the look of things most game providers have lootboxes in their games and what I on a personal level especially hate is are the thousands of ads one has to watch while playing those games( pardon me if this is unrelated) but if you download those mobile games you’d have noticed.
[/quote]

[Alphakilo]

The main question I would like us to really think about right now, is if lootboxes in these games are considered actual gambling.
‎Is there real cash involved, is there something of value in these lootboxes, is the random nature of chance that is a phenomenon in real gambling activities, predominantly evident in these games?
‎
‎If a court rules that lootboxes are gambling activities, it is sure to create a new dynamics in the business model these game companies operate with, just because they intend to avoid penalties and law against illegal gambling, because lootboxes in these games would definitely be considered as one.
‎
‎

[DaveF]

Yes, it's gambling. Since you pay money to get a random outcome.

The question becomes, can NY distill that down to the point that it is what / how the game operates.

-Dave

[stompix]

All "lootboxes" and other gacha-type games inside a normal game should be banned and all their games boycotted.
These things along with montly subscriptions or vip bonusses or other shit other than real content DLCs like new maps are just destroying gaming.
Lootboxes and microtransactions would be the first things I would want to see disappear forever from gaming!

I don’t consider it as gambling since the rewards is an in-game item which just happened to have a value set by the players who is willing to pay for that item due to its rarity.
~
This is same when buying pokemon cards booster park which collectors doesn’t know what inside and can sell rare cards in the open market.

And where is the Nintendo site where you can exchange that between players and sell it for cash?
There is a huge difference between collectibles and skins!

[xLays]

First, what do you guys think about lootboxes inside a game? Do you think it's gambling or not?

New York is suing Valve for its lootboxes inside its games. The article is saying that New York is arguing that Valve is promoting illegal gambling practices with its lootboxes and wants them to stop/remove it in their game.

For those who don't know, there have been debates for years about lootboxes or Gacha being a form of gambling, there were even petitions years ago demanding that lootboxes and gacha be removed from inside the games, as kids are being exposed and getting addicted to it.

Link to the article: https://www.xda-developers.com/new-york-is-suing-valve-calling-its-lootbox-systems-quintessential-gambling/

What I find confusing is why only Valve is being targeted. There are many online games that use the same kind of system.
I also saw this on my Facebook feed and some people were saying that it seems unlikely Valve will be sued or fined over this because it is valve is related to gambling.
Maybe New York filed this case because they believe Valve is behind the skin gambling. But in reality, it is mostly third party websites that use skins for betting, not Valve itself.
Still, Valve could have done more to prevent skin gambling from happening. I think their terms already prohibit this, but there are still many sites that continue using skins for gambling.

[Mindyspace]

I think loot boxes look like gambling because you pay without knowing what you'll get, and the chance of getting something good is very small; it's like betting.

The New York vs. Valve case shows that the problem is very serious, especially because it involves children and the risk of addiction. Many games use this mechanic of creating expectation and giving random rewards.

But in my opinion, it would be better to keep the rewards random, but without charging real money; that way it's safer and fairer, don't you think?

[BitMaxz]

It looks like this is a trending topic outside of this forum, where most affected users got useless items from the loot boxes. Honestly, at first glance for me, it's not gambling, but before you can open those loot boxes, you need to pay for something to open the boxes and receive a rare or useless item.
The part here that makes it a gamble is that the loot boxes give you random items, and you aren't able to open them without paying.
Counter-Strike has is free-to-play since I was a kid, but right now, the company is taking some advantage and making smart moves to get more juice from this game. They added these loot boxes, which are supposed to be free. If they want to make money from CS2, they better switch to a pay-to-skin model similar to Valorant instead of using loot boxes where customers do not know if the reward is worth it or not. The pay-to-skin model seems the better option.

[l99l]

This is a form of gambling to say it's not gambling would be a bit inaccurate, in my opinion.
Nowadays, it's not just Valve other game companies, like Activion, are making money from in-game items instead of the game itself. Like in FIFA, where you open cards, and these aren't free they're cards with certain rarities. I'm curious to see what kind of decision will be made. It's never been brought up before.

[mcdouglasx]

Loot boxes are practically ubiquitous in online games these days, and it's addictive not knowing what you're going to get. Many people spend exorbitant amounts of money on them, but I generally don't. I only open the free ones or those that are rewards in games. I bought some packs once, but I lost interest because I felt the expense wasn't enough for what little I got.